Conservative Finlay Low Wage Immigrant Workers.

[Guest Derek L]

No the exact opposite would be true. Our standard of life is driven by growth... When the population is growing we build houses, roads, new residential neighborhoods, and businesses are started or expanded to supply what new citizens consume. If we stopped immigration we would see contraction in both our population and our economy. Thats not to say that all immigrants are good... we should try to let in the best ones we can, and we generally do.

But your standard of life would decline dramatically without immigration, and there would be less employment as well.

It IS possible to have a stable country without growth, but not based on our current economic framework.

So migrant workers picking the berries, gutting the fish and cleaning our homes is a good thing?

You mention my standard of living, well that seems to ring true. I’ve no problem paying someone, be they an immigrant, migrant worker or Canadian kid $10-15 dollars an hour to do yard work, but I’d certainly scoff at the idea of paying a “living wage” of $27.65/hr plus benefits and pension to do the same task……

[The_Squid]

So migrant workers picking the berries, gutting the fish and cleaning our homes is a good thing?

Once again, you are confusing temporary migrant workers with immigration.

[Guest Derek L]

Once again, you are confusing temporary migrant workers with immigration.

And the difference is? Is a landed immigrant, that picks berries, really purchasing homes and cars (here in Greater Vancouver)?

[The_Squid]

And the difference is? Is a landed immigrant, that picks berries, really purchasing homes and cars (here in Greater Vancouver)?

No one said EVERY immigrant is a boon to the economy. But in general, immigrants as a whole are a net benefit. Why berries? Why not an immigrant who is a construction worker? Or a nurse? Doctor? Self employed mechanic who has a shop and employees?

[Guest Derek L]

No one said EVERY immigrant is a boon to the economy. But in general, immigrants as a whole are a net benefit. Why berries? Why not an immigrant who is a construction worker? Or a nurse? Doctor? Self employed mechanic who has a shop and employees?

So we should just stop immigration that isn’t a boon to the economy? No more elderly immigrants, children and “low skilled” workers? What about professional immigrants that can’t get accreditation from a professional body?

[eyeball]

What about professional immigrants that can’t get accreditation from a professional body?

Why do we need accreditation boards to do what the market does for everything else within it?

[Guest Derek L]

Why do we need accreditation boards to do what the market does for everything else within it?

You’re preaching to the converted here…..

[dre]

So we should just stop immigration that isn’t a boon to the economy? No more elderly immigrants, children and “low skilled” workers? What about professional immigrants that can’t get accreditation from a professional body?

Its population growth itself thats important to the economy. If canadians had sex with each other more without birth control then it wouldnt be a problem. But as things stand we need to let in a certain ammount of people... obviously you want to let in as many good ones as possible, but youll probably have to let in some average ones to meet population growth targets as well.

BTW... Children, the elderly, and low skilled workers all contribute to the economy. They need shelter, that means construction jobs. They need food, that means agricultural and retail jobs. ETC.

[eyeball]

You’re preaching to the converted here…..

Really?

Why do people need licences to sustain themselves from the natural resources that surround them?

[Guest Derek L]

Its population growth itself thats important to the economy. If canadians had sex with each other more without birth control then it wouldnt be a problem. But as things stand we need to let in a certain ammount of people... obviously you want to let in as many good ones as possible, but youll probably have to let in some average ones to meet population growth targets as well.

BTW... Children, the elderly, and low skilled workers all contribute to the economy. They need shelter, that means construction jobs. They need food, that means agricultural and retail jobs. ETC.

But is it though? Is an immigrant family, with the earners working low paying jobs, renting an illegal basement suite, with two kids and grandma really contributing to the economy and society in general? I don’t know, and would be interested in seeing some evidence for and against.

[Guest Derek L]

Really?

Why do people need licences to sustain themselves from the natural resources that surround them?

I’m not sure where you’re going, but if you mean immigrants with needed skills (tradesmen/doctors/Engineers etc) being forced to pick berries or drive a taxi due to their skills not being easily accredited within Canada, I agree.

[dre]

But is it though? Is an immigrant family, with the earners working low paying jobs, renting an illegal basement suite, with two kids and grandma really contributing to the economy and society in general? I don’t know, and would be interested in seeing some evidence for and against.

That puts 6 or 7 hundred dollars into the pocket of the person renting them the suite, and more money into the pockets of folks that sell them food, clothing, and everything else they consume.

Keep this in mind as well... Statistics show that those children are likely to be very productive Canadian citizens when they grow up. The unemployment rate for second generation immigrants is very low, and they are more likely to own a home than a native born Canadian.

Im absolutely sure you can find cases where we let in people that didnt turn out to be net contributors, but in general thats not the case. We have a strong immigration system, and very high quality immigrants relative to our peers. On balance they are highly educated and very productive.

Keep in mind im talking about immigration in general, and not specifically the proposal mentioned in the OP. I dont think we should make exceptions to minimum wage laws at all.

[dre]

I’m not sure where you’re going, but if you mean immigrants with needed skills (tradesmen/doctors/Engineers etc) being forced to pick berries or drive a taxi due to their skills not being easily accredited within Canada, I agree.

This is killing us in the healthcare system. 1/2 of Indian doctors are driving cab, even though they are some of the best trained doctors in the world. This is partly because of blatant protectionism on the part of medical associations, but also partly because Canadians have such backward ideas about other people around the world. When they think of doctors from the developing world they picture a guy working in a mud hut with a bone through his nose, sprinking erbs on the patients gonads while rubbing his tummy and chanting.

[eyeball]

I’m not sure where you’re going, but if you mean immigrants with needed skills (tradesmen/doctors/Engineers etc) being forced to pick berries or drive a taxi due to their skills not being easily accredited within Canada, I agree.

Why should the law treat one's use of a common property natural resource any differently than the market treats one's use of their skills?

Edited April 30, 2012 by eyeball

[Guest Derek L]

This is killing us in the healthcare system. 1/2 of Indian doctors are driving cab, even though they are some of the best trained doctors in the world. This is partly because of blatant protectionism on the part of medical associations, but also partly because Canadians have such backward ideas about other people around the world. When they think of doctors from the developing world they picture a guy working in a mud hut with a bone through his nose, sprinking erbs on the patients gonads while rubbing his tummy and chanting.

I know all about that, my wife’s a South African trained dentist…….As I’d hazard the guess that many of the same issues are commonplace with various other professions.

[Guest Derek L]

That puts 6 or 7 hundred dollars into the pocket of the person renting them the suite, and more money into the pockets of folks that sell them food, clothing, and everything else they consume.

Keep this in mind as well... Statistics show that those children are likely to be very productive Canadian citizens when they grow up. The unemployment rate for second generation immigrants is very low, and they are more likely to own a home than a native born Canadian.

Im absolutely sure you can find cases where we let in people that didnt turn out to be net contributors, but in general thats not the case. We have a strong immigration system, and very high quality immigrants relative to our peers. On balance they are highly educated and very productive.

Keep in mind im talking about immigration in general, and not specifically the proposal mentioned in the OP. I dont think we should make exceptions to minimum wage laws at all.

But how I read it, they’re won’t be exceptions to minimum wage laws…..

[Guest Derek L]

Why should the law treat one's use of a common property natural resource any differently than the market treats one's use of their skills?

Agreed. Is repairing a diesel engine in the Philippines or delivering a baby in Romania any different then in Canada?

[dre]

But how I read it, they’re won’t be exceptions to minimum wage laws…..

Ok, fair enough. To be honest my entry point into this thread was responding to your comment about unemployment going down and wages going up if we stopped immigration.

[dre]

I know all about that, my wife’s a South African trained dentist…….As I’d hazard the guess that many of the same issues are commonplace with various other professions.

Im 1/2 South African myself. Sorry if your wife is having issues entering her occupation here, and best of luck to her!

[eyeball]

Agreed. Is repairing a diesel engine in the Philippines or delivering a baby in Romania any different then in Canada?

I doubt it.

In the meantime why the difference between a Canadian cutting a tree down with a licence and a Canadian cutting a tree down without a licence, from the perspective of the market that is?

[Guest Derek L]

Im 1/2 South African myself. Sorry if your wife is having issues entering her occupation here, and best of luck to her!

Thanks, but that was over 20 years ago and has since went back to school and became an orthodontists……….It truly was/is ridiculous, initially she couldn’t even get work as a dental hygienists, but had no problem finding work when we lived down in the States even though she was South African, with Canadian residency, living in the States well I was working under an H1B (She had to change her H-4 visa to a H2B).

[dre]

I doubt it.

In the meantime why the difference between a Canadian cutting a tree down with a licence and a Canadian cutting a tree down without a licence, from the perspective of the market that is?

Licensing covers where trees can be cut, how many trees can be cut, what safety standards are required for workers, what training they should have etc.

Logging is one of the most dangerous jobs in the world, and the regulations probably emerged from real issues.

The problem is the regulatory scheme just gets more and more complex and hard to navigate, and expensive to fund over time.

Eventually we will have to reboot and start over me thinks.

[Argus]

Well I guess we’re in agreement………Stop immigration into Canada until the economy picks up.

Problem is immigration is not designed to help the economy. Its designed to help the politicians get votes.

[fellowtraveller]

I tried to start a debate on here in the past with westerners who didn't seem to think that immigrants could work in the oilpatch. Looks like they were wrong.

??? iimigrants have been coming to Canada and Alberta to work for generations. That includes economic refugees from all over the world including every Candian province, to the tune of an increase in popualtion of close to a million people in the last decade.

[cybercoma]

Yes, but should they be suspended for the “sake of the Canadian middle class”?

Immigration cannot be entirely suspended for a number of different reasons. Immigration is only 0.7% of the population as it is.