Becarefull what you wish for.

[cybercoma]

I got a notice in the mail yesterday saying that the OAS, applies to Canadians born after March 31, 1958. Why March 31st? Why not Dec.31st?

They're going by fiscal year.

[cybercoma]

still looking for your link to the NDP asgreeing that we need new jets.

There si no other plane out there, and the other countries still want it. A couple are buying super hornets just to get by with till the F-35 is finished. People scream about not having a tendering process ,well the other countries did and guess what the F-35 won. And does anybody remember the Sikorsky Cyclone , well where is it ,a paper helicopter bought by the libs, now that is a real scandal, not a made up one like this, you liberals should hold your head in shame.

It's not about the planes.

[Spiderfish]

And does anybody remember the Sikorsky Cyclone , well where is it ,a paper helicopter bought by the libs

Apparently, scheduled delivery has been delayed due to engine upgrades. I wonder if costs associated with this change and delay have been factored into an updated procurement cost? A delay of 5 years is sure to change the numbers more than a little (ie. fuel, wages, and shoelaces haven't gone down in price since 2009). Where's the outrage with this sham?

[Spiderfish]

It's not about the planes.

It isn't?

[madmax]

still looking for your link to the NDP asgreeing that we need new jets.

I don't believe the NDP are all in regarding the need for New Jets...

-------------------------

"The current CF-18 fleet's operational life extends to 2017 at the earliest," said Layton. "Our current ships have reached the end of their operational lives. They need to be replaced immediately."

Layton did not write off the F-35 plan completely.

"The time frame on the planes and whether or not we need those kinds of planes should be the subject of a national discussion before we make that kind of commitment," said Layton. "That's why we're suggesting a white paper

------------------------------------------

[Tilter]

Going by the title of this topic, I wonder how many Canadians who voted out the lIberals and put in the Conservatives, wished they didn't. I got a notice in the mail yesterday saying that the OAS, applies to Canadians born after March 31, 1958. Why March 31st? Why not Dec.31st?

Because of the fact that we can't buy F35s on Dec 31st.--- This is another post about airplanes.

[Tilter]

Going by the title of this topic, I wonder how many Canadians who voted out the lIberals and put in the Conservatives, wished they didn't.

3 people, you & 2 others

Edited April 12, 2012 by Tilter

[fellowtraveller]

It's not about the planes.

That is not a link to where you demonstrate the NDP agreement that we need new jets.

Tip: links often have .com at the end.

[waldo]

There is no other plane out there, and the other countries still want it. A couple are buying super hornets just to get by with till the F-35 is finished. People scream about not having a tendering process ,well the other countries did and guess what the F-35 won.

a bit pressed for time at the moment... or I would put forward other interesting 'shifts' besides the following:

Dassault - 126 Rafale jets: India selects French firm for major deal

India has selected the French firm Dassault over the Eurofighter consortium as the preferred bidder for 126 fighter jets in a major contract estimated to be worth $12 billion

.

.

India pulled a surprise by cutting out US bidders Boeing and Lockheed Martin – much to Washington’s disappointment – as well as dropping Sweden’s Saab AB and the Russian makers of the MiG 35 from the race.

That left Dassault and Eurofighter – a consortium of Britain’s BAE Systems, Italy’s Finmeccanica and the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company.

The tendered contract was for the outright purchase of 18 combat aircraft by 2012 with another 108 to be built in India with options to acquire more.

[Tilter]

a bit pressed for time at the moment... or I would put forward other interesting 'shifts' besides the following:

Dassault - 126 Rafale jets: India selects French firm for major deal

Yeah---what we really need is a French or Italian A/C.

A few years ago Quebec decided that the only way to go in the Computer world was one from France. This was in the 80S & I don't think that they have the system going yet.

The Italians build ugly air planes & in order to be good an air plane HAS to look good--- the uglier the less efficient, the prettier the better.

How do you tender an purchase when there is only 1 in what we call the free world that meets your specs? We aren't about topurchase from China or Russia so we are stuck with the best in the world

[Smallc]

a bit pressed for time at the moment... or I would put forward other interesting 'shifts' besides the following:

Dassault - 126 Rafale jets: India selects French firm for major deal

The F-35 was never part of that competition. The Japanese picked the F-35. Only one JSF partner is having a competition. The rest are going sole source, because like us, they signed on to this years ago.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Smallc

[waldo]

Yeah---what we really need is a French or Italian A/C.

A few years ago Quebec decided that the only way to go in the Computer world was one from France. This was in the 80S & I don't think that they have the system going yet.

however you think this is relative, brazen (unsubstantiated) Tilter anecdotes are... meaningless

The Italians build ugly air planes & in order to be good an air plane HAS to look good--- the uglier the less efficient, the prettier the better.

you seem to be the only one in this thread... in any threads... talking about "Italian planes"

[waldo]

Dassault - 126 Rafale jets: India selects French firm for major deal

The F-35 was never part of that competition.

no - the Americans initially offered the F-16 or F-18... it was only after firm 'rumours' of India negotiating with Dassault surfaced, that the U.S. opened up to offering the F-35. And, again, India is (still) moving forward with the Dassault Rafale jets.

Only one JSF partner is having a competition. The rest are going sole source, because like us, they signed on to this years ago.

huh! "We signed on to this"? Is that so? Didn't the PMO send you the updated talking points... there is no contract (now), after all. Canada has no obligations, no commitments toward the JSF F-35.

[punked]

no - the Americans initially offered the F-16 or F-18... it was only after firm 'rumours' of India negotiating with Dassault surfaced, that the U.S. opened up to offering the F-35. And, again, India is (still) moving forward with the Dassault Rafale jets.

huh! "We signed on to this"? Is that so? Didn't the PMO send you the updated talking points... there is no contract (now), after all. Canada has no obligations, no commitments toward the JSF F-35.

They are getting that jet at cost or some rumors are saying the French government was so desperate to win a Jet contract that they will be subsidizing the building of this jet for the Indian government. Quite the deal they got all because they put the contract out to tender.

[waldo]

They are getting that jet at cost or some rumors are saying the French government was so desperate to win a Jet contract that they will be subsidizing the building of this jet for the Indian government. Quite the deal they got all because they put the contract out to tender.

yes - the key is the actual tendering... competition! What a concept. A big incentive is Dassault will be opening a plant in India and actual manufacturing for the majority of the planes will occur in India. Effectively, Dassault and the India government have struck a 'strategic partnership' (on several levels). Again, tendering has its advantages/benefits/gains...

[punked]

yes - the key is the actual tendering... competition! What a concept. A big incentive is Dassault will be opening a plant in India and actual manufacturing for the majority of the planes will occur in India. Effectively, Dassault and the India government have struck a 'strategic partnership' (on several levels). Again, tendering has its advantages/benefits/gains...

Not only that the French government might even pay them to do this.

[Smallc]

no - the Americans initially offered the F-16 or F-18... it was only after firm 'rumours' of India negotiating with Dassault surfaced, that the U.S. opened up to offering the F-35. And, again, India is (still) moving forward with the Dassault Rafale jets.

But it was never in the competition. The Dassault Rafale is no match for an F-35.

huh! "We signed on to this"? Is that so? Didn't the PMO send you the updated talking points... there is no contract (now), after all. Canada has no obligations, no commitments toward the JSF F-35.

We're a development partner. The other development partners are, for the most part, getting the jet without a competition, just as we have signalled.

[Smallc]

Not only that the French government might even pay them to do this.

We should obviously get the jet that they have to give away....

Note that I actually like the Rafale, but I'm afraid it probably won't be relevant in 36 years.

[waldo]

But it was never in the competition. The Dassault Rafale is no match for an F-35.

no - again, it's... in... the competition, as the Americans have belatedly offered it up (after initially only offering the F-16/F-18. No match? You mean... no match for the ever escalating in price F-35? The F-35 that is under scrutiny from several of the JSF partners? The F-35 that is still several years from production delivery?... the F-35 that is currently facing problems on several fronts (design, power and range limitations)? The F-35 that has the U.S. government formally putting the Pentagon/DND on notice - the "no mo money" declaration! The F-35 that's on the butt-end of scuttling rumours? That F-35?

We're a development partner. The other development partners are, for the most part, getting the jet without a competition, just as we have signalled.

uhhh... "partners" getting the F-35 without a competition! Ya... right - that's the problem - I think you finally get it!

[WWWTT]

Oh no not another allegedly "different" F-35 thread!

The only reason why I even make this comment is because I wasted my time clicking on it.If it was appropriately titled I would not have been dissapointed.

WWWTT

[Guest Derek L]

no - the Americans initially offered the F-16 or F-18... it was only after firm 'rumours' of India negotiating with Dassault surfaced, that the U.S. opened up to offering the F-35. And, again, India is (still) moving forward with the Dassault Rafale jets.

huh! "We signed on to this"? Is that so? Didn't the PMO send you the updated talking points... there is no contract (now), after all. Canada has no obligations, no commitments toward the JSF F-35.

Lockheed never offered the F-35 for sale to India, since the Pentagon has yet to allow the technology transfer and secured transfer of program information, they did offer the Indianans to join the program. Lockheed offered the F-16 and Boeing the Super Hornet………….The Indian competition came down to aircraft that could be used by both their Air Force and Navy, which eliminated the F-16, and all but eliminated the Eurofighter and Saab which only have a proposed carrier version. This left the Super Hornet and Rafale……..Boeing wouldn’t offer the same offsets and percentage of local production as the publicly subsidized Dassault……..Rafale won by default……expect similar results with the Brazilians.

[Guest Derek L]

They are getting that jet at cost or some rumors are saying the French government was so desperate to win a Jet contract that they will be subsidizing the building of this jet for the Indian government. Quite the deal they got all because they put the contract out to tender.

Why do you think the French were desperate for an order?

[punked]

Why do you think the French were desperate for an order?

because they were competing with 6 other nations trying to under cut them for billion dollar prize duh.

[Smallc]

because they were competing with 6 other nations trying to under cut them for billion dollar prize duh.

Because they don't have any orders, because they're plane can't compete. I didn't realize this before, but in my reading, I discovered that the Rafale was determined by DND to be no real improvement over our current CF-18s.

Laurie Hawn:

Let's take process first. We've had subject matter experts, military and civilian, studying the JSF programs and other options for years at a very highly classified level. We have highly experienced fighter pilots and engineerson the military side, many of whom I have known for decades. On the civilian side, we've got people like BGen (ret) Dan Ross, ADM (Mat) for the past five years and a guy who has helped reduce acquisition times from over 100 months to less than 50 months. We also have a guy named Mike Slack, who has been exclusively involved with JSF for close to ten years, and who knows the nonsense that former ADM (Mat) Alan Williams is spreading. We initially looked at F-22, F-35, F-18E/F, Typhoon, Gripen and Rafale. F-22 was eliminated right away, because it would not be for sale to anyone other than the U.S. After analysis, the Gripen and Rafale were eliminated as not having any performance advantage over our current CF-18. A more extensive evaluation of the F-35, F-18E/F and Typhoon was conducted. The conclusion was that the F-35 is the only aircraft that meets the mandatory high level capabilities and the more specific operational requirements, and at the best cost with the best industrial opportunities. The same process was followed in the U.S., U.K., Australia, Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Italy, and Turkey within the MOU. Israel is on board outside the MOU and Japan, South Korea and others are poised to follow suit. There is a definite trend here and maybe we should listen to our own subject matter experts and all these people from so many countries

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-15259.html

Edited April 13, 2012 by Smallc

[Guest Derek L]

because they were competing with 6 other nations trying to under cut them for billion dollar prize duh.

Aside from the French Air Force and Navy, and now India, the Rafale has lost every competition it has been apart of…….For good reason.