F-35 Purchase

[waldo]

You're right, Waldo! I remember the suggested split and the 2020 timeline. What I am finding frustrating is that although I distinctly remember hearing the reporter telling us how Obama's admirals told him they did not possess sufficient assets I can't google up a link to support this!

let me take the liberty given the earlier reference/link I made to Romney puffing up over increased military expenditures, new ships, restoring the F22, 100,000+ new personnel, etc.; particularly as Romney is showing his foreign policy, er... chops, ya... chops - and rattling shiny Republican sabres! Obama had the zinger on 60 minutes last night - "If Gov. Romney is suggesting that we should start another war, he should say so"

[dre]

It was only a day or two ago, on a PBS 'Asian News Hour'. I'll see if I can dig up more of the same.

I was being facetious towards the Americans, mainly. China is flexing its muscles against Japan. The USA is treaty bound to protect Japan. Yet when Obama calls for more naval power presence in Asian waters his admirals come back and tell him that they just don't have the available assets anymore!

No doubt they were not so impolitic as to mention that it was politicians like Obama who cut those assets!

It is a reality check for Uncle Sam. Actions have consequences and if you do not have the wit to see them in advance then you deserve what you get. You know I'm a great one for enjoying such situations!

China is going to just up and take those islands because no one has the strength to oppose them. There will be moaning and whining at the UN and perhaps some here on MLW will call for Canada to save the day with our "soft power". It won't matter. China is taking those islands for the oil reserves because it can! America will not stop them because it can't!

Ass, grass or gas. Nobody rides for free.

RIght so basically your position is that the US should have borrowed money from China to stand up for Japans claim to some little islands, and that this is somehow in the interest of the US tax payer.

Tell me why exactly why you think Americans should burden themselves and future generations to underwrite this?

[Wild Bill]

RIght so basically your position is that the US should have borrowed money from China to stand up for Japans claim to some little islands, and that this is somehow in the interest of the US tax payer.

Tell me why exactly why you think Americans should burden themselves and future generations to underwrite this?

I admit I don't understand all the ramifications, Dr. Dre. Still, I happen to believe that nations should honour their treaties.

If America does not honour its treaty with Japan then what worth is America's word?

Who would ever expect America to honour a treaty again?

It would be an enormous kick in the crotch for Japan. Why on earth would they ever again trust America?

[waldo]

If America does not honour its treaty with Japan then what worth is America's word?

Who would ever expect America to honour a treaty again?

It would be an enormous kick in the crotch for Japan. Why on earth would they ever again trust America?

an insightful, timely analysis on the Senkaku islands 'dispute'... use and apply as you deem appropriate, or not at all.

[Wild Bill]

an insightful, timely analysis on the Senkaku islands 'dispute'... use and apply as you deem appropriate, or not at all.

Ah, I see. "Weasel words"!

From what I understood Waldo, it appears we have a treaty that seems to definitely say something but has a few loopholes that diplomats could use to weasel out, lawyer fashion.

This might and does fly in a civil court but I am not certain as to how nations would view it. If America reneged the Chinese would be happy but if I were another country I might feel very differently of ever making any deals with America.

Again, a lawyer might win with technicalities and legalisms but nobody ever likes a skunk at a picnic.

Does America really want its image to the world to be Johnny Cochrane? It has recently been revealed that he tampered with the famous glove that didn't fit O J Simpson.

If America chose this route the damage to its credibility with the Japanese could be enormous.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Wild Bill

[Pat]

testing

[Pat]

Takes a lot of effort to write this SO AT LEAST READ......Canadians waste money on everything.....canadians worry about everyone but ourselves.......IMPORTANT....If we look at the Americans ...they have Florida....Hawaii etc....an American can go on vacation (tropically) and never have to leave the united states.....Twenty years ago Canada had an opportunity to get involved with an island called Turks and Caicos...did we? oh no......Our government and people.....oh no ....we don't need to have a nice tropical island....not us....Are you aware who swooped in an got it....yes ....the British....and their making money on that island

If Canada ....for one minute stopped arguing with one another....and put ALL our money together.....the next Turks and Caicos that comes available ....COULD BE .....YES .....COULD BE.....CANADIAN.....wouldn't that make a Canadian proud......next time a Canadian family is planning a vacation to be able to make it a Canadian vacation....but be a nice tropical island......oh Canada.......why don't we start really working together........as Russel Peters says........WERE ALL CANADIAN....RIGHT?

[Pat]

WE CAN FORGET ABOUT BUYING F-35 ANYTHING...........that's not making what Canadians need to start making.......MONEY

[Wild Bill]

Takes a lot of effort to write this SO AT LEAST READ......Canadians waste money on everything.....canadians worry about everyone but ourselves.......IMPORTANT....If we look at the Americans ...they have Florida....Hawaii etc....an American can go on vacation (tropically) and never have to leave the united states.....Twenty years ago Canada had an opportunity to get involved with an island called Turks and Caicos...did we? oh no......Our government and people.....oh no ....we don't need to have a nice tropical island....not us....Are you aware who swooped in an got it....yes ....the British....and their making money on that island

If Canada ....for one minute stopped arguing with one another....and put ALL our money together.....the next Turks and Caicos that comes available ....COULD BE .....YES .....COULD BE.....CANADIAN.....wouldn't that make a Canadian proud......next time a Canadian family is planning a vacation to be able to make it a Canadian vacation....but be a nice tropical island......oh Canada.......why don't we start really working together........as Russel Peters says........WERE ALL CANADIAN....RIGHT?

Pat, I happen to agree with you about the Turks and Caicos issue. I also appreciate that you put such effort to make a post about it here in this thread. Thank you for taking the time and showing such interest.

However, it would work better if you took some time to get an understanding of how this board works. Posts are organized into threads about various subjects. That way, people know what is being discussed in any particular thread and can pick and choose those that interest them.

So it is important to fit a post into the proper thread. If it is a new topic, it should be placed in a new thread of its own. Perhaps your post about these islands should have gone into a "Rest of the World" category, or if it concerns a choice and opportunity missed by our Canadian government, the Canadian Politics/Federal Politics sub-category.

Threads can go on and on for up to hundreds of pages! If we don't try to keep things organized no one will be able to find anything. Your post here is not really about the F-35 purchase at all. It will tend to be ignored and forgotten quickly. If you were to repost it to be a new thread of its own you would likely see a lot of replies from people interested in this specific issue.

Again, welcome aboard!

[Guest Derek L]

fix it? Are you finally willing to acknowledge... admit... there are problems/issues/concerns?

hey now, what's this - no viable alternatives, hey? Don't bother to hype F-35 vapourware...

Indian air force to buy French fighters

Ahh....We went over that months ago........the F-35 wasn't offered by LockMart due to technology transfer issues.......the same issues that excluded Boeing's Super Hornet

[Guest Derek L]

F22s! Go Rmoney, go!

Romney didn't read the box...........Boeing has already bought and used the last of the i960MX processors.........No Intel i960, No Raptor........Unless they want to redesign then entire Avionics suite

[Guest Derek L]

Cold Lake base eyed as F-35 advanced weapons training centre: defence sources

Cool Pool for the win...........

Defence planners are examining a proposition that would see Canada run an advanced multi-national training course for the F-35 if the contentious stealth fighter program gets the go-ahead from the Harper government, industry sources say.

Canadian Forces Base Cold Lake, a sprawling, isolated air force facility in northern Alberta, would serve as a training school for pilots already qualified on the aircraft to learn to use the plane's weapons systems.

The airfield is already home to an air-to-ground weapons school for the country's current fleet of CF-18s, but the proposition would see Canada transition to the F-35 and open up instruction to other countries that are part of the program.

And perhaps a split of training facilities, thusly creating a viable redux of 5 Wing........The zillions of PMQs are still there.......

The Harper government insisted that any talk of a future training facility is speculative.

"The government of Canada has not yet purchased a replacement fleet of aircraft for the current CF-18 fighter jets," said Michelle Bakos, communications director for Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose.

"As a result, no arrangements for pilot training for the replacement fleet have been finalized. It would be premature to discuss any possible training for potential replacements."

But of course

A former senior air force planner, who has questioned the wisdom of the F-35 purchase, was intrigued by the proposition and its timing.

But retired colonel Paul Maillet said it's important to understand who is driving the Cold Lake proposal — the American and Canadian militaries, the Canadian government, or the industry.

"If it is simply a question of the U.S. Air Force looking for more (training) range space, then that's one thing. But the question is, what's the whole political thing here?" he said.

As part of the team of nations paying for the development of the jet fighter, Canada has said it is in line for as much as $9.8 billion in aerospace production and service contracts.

Maillet said an advanced training centre would clearly be outside of that memorandum and an additional benefit that the government could potentially boast about to a skeptical public.

And the possibility makes it tougher to say "no" to the program.

The proposition "would make it more and more difficult to have an objective re-look at this as the government is supposed to be doing," said Maillet.

NDP procurement critic Matthew Kellway said he views the notion as "a reward to this government for their unwavering support" of the program.

"Every other (joint strike fighter) partner has been hemming and hawing for quite some time about delays, whereas this government seems to be in the midst of all sorts of political contortions to keep the purchase of this plane on track," said Kellway.

Of course it has nothing to do with a longstanding tradition between F-35/NATO/NORAD partners that have for decades shared each others training facilities………and simple geography and already existing surplus facilities…..

Edited September 25, 2012 by Derek L

[waldo]

*** re-posted to the more current F-35 thread ***

The politicians picked the F-35 on the advice of the Air Force…………

peddle your shinola... elsewhere, hey!

Air Force's F-35 recommendation was missing key information - Report did not have important data on competing aircraft

But the air force report that backed that recommendation, obtained by the fifth estate, reveals that when the Canadian military visited four other nations that were peddling competing fighter jets they were denied classified information every time.

.

The fifth estate investigation also reveals that, four years later, prior to the Harper government’s controversial 2010 announcement to sole-source the Lockheed Martin-built F-35, the subsequent information Canada obtained about competing aircraft came from the U.S. Joint Strike Fighter office — the very people with the most to gain from selling Canada the F-35.

[Guest Derek L]

*** re-posted to the more current F-35 thread ***

Did you read the article, and contrast that with my previous statement:

The politicians picked the F-35 on the advice of the Air Force

The Royal Canadian Air Force trumpeted the F-35 fighter jet to Canada’s defence minister as the best option for the country even though it was missing key information on competing aircraft, according to a Canadian military insider.

Despite the fact that the air force review was incomplete and the F-35 was still only in development, the brass recommended in a brief to the defence minister in September, 2006, that the F-35: "provides the best available operational capabilities to meet Canadian operational requirements, while providing the longest service life and lowest per aircraft cost of all options considered."

The fifth estate investigation also reveals that, four years later, prior to the Harper government’s controversial 2010 announcement to sole-source the Lockheed Martin-built F-35, the subsequent information Canada obtained about competing aircraft came from the U.S. Joint Strike Fighter office — the very people with the most to gain from selling Canada the F-35.

Earth shattering!!! The very same Joint Strike Fighter office made up of US & UK military and industry representatives………You know, the folks that operate and produce the Super Hornet (USN), the Euro fighter (BAE/RAF) and the Gripen (Saab/BAE)

In his interview with the fifth estate, Lucas also reveals that he was never keen on a competition to choose Canada’s next fighter jet.

“To hold a true competition, you would actually have to step back from being a partner nation,” Lucas says. “You would actually have to get out of the partnership to be part of a Canadian-style competition.”

Quite the "whistleblower" the CBC found eh? Funny, that prior to being appointed the Chief of the Air Staff (By the Liberal Government), the General was appointed in ‘02, the same year the then Liberal Government signed us up for the JSF, as the Chief of Staff for the Assistant deputy Minister of the Department of National Defence, your pal, Alan Williams……..

Yet the General was never keen on holding a competition………I suppose he doesn’t have a book out eh?

Edited September 30, 2012 by Derek L

[waldo]

Earth shattering!!! The very same Joint Strike Fighter office made up of US & UK military and industry representatives………You know, the folks that operate and produce the Super Hornet (USN), the Euro fighter (BAE/RAF) and the Gripen (Saab/BAE)

no problem! It's gold, Jerry... real gold! Canada's knowledge of competitive offerings delivered, with a smile, a nudge and a wink-wink, straight from JSFail/LockMart itself!

[Guest Derek L]

no problem! It's gold, Jerry... real gold! Canada's knowledge of competitive offerings delivered, with a smile, a nudge and a wink-wink, straight from JSFail/LockMart itself!

Lockheed doesn’t produce or operate the “competitors” aircraft……….But the United States Navy, Royal Air Force and BAE sure do……….One could also add, as I was remiss in my previous post mentioning, the French Rafale is the product of French largess after the French Government pulled their ball out of the Eurofighter consortium and opted for a singular parallel approach………….Also, forgot to mention, the only other western aircraft currently in production, the F-15 & F-16, are both in service with the USAF, the Dutch, Danes, Turks and Norwegians………All JSF partners………

And what of the remaining members, Italy & Australia? Why the Italians are founding members of Eurofighter and the RAAF operates the Super Hornet………..Clearly the JSF office has sufficient corporate knowledge of the “competitors” wares………..

[waldo]

Clearly the JSF office has sufficient corporate knowledge of the “competitors” wares………

ya, ya... who needs a real open competition - just get all the competitors information from LockMart! Who needs that open bid process, negotiating best price/benefits from all competitors... just buy the vapourware F-35 - after all, what's a decade+ of astronomical failures, delays, price increases and cost overruns!

hey now, did ya read, given the ongoing delays, the Aussies have just announced they are forced to retrofit all their F-18s... you know, just like Canada had to (to the tune of ~$2 billion)..... do you think LockMart will cut them an eventual break on F-35 pricing?

whaaa! "Runaway Fighter"! Well done, Fifth Estate!

hey now... any news yet on that press release you were touting? Are you still looking for it?

And in other news:

Pentagon officials likely to OK F-35 test plan on Friday: sources

I shall provide the appropriate link once DoD/LockMart issue a press release………

it's a shame your googly let you down!

Sept 10 - More problems raised at Pentagon F-35 fighter review

Senior Pentagon officials voiced frustration about the pace of Lockheed Martin Corp's development of the $396 billion F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program at a high-level review on Friday, according to several sources familiar with the program.

Officials did not approve a comprehensive plan for operational testing of the F-35 program as had been expected

.

[Mr.Canada]

After watching the fifth estate program I am really getting scared about the cost of these planes. I am also not sure they are the b est plane for Canada. I was a big supporter of these planes at first but now I am not so sure.

I'd like to see actual air force pilots from Canada fly each of the planes Canada was considering then comparing notes and making a decision. I wonder how much it would cost to get out of the contract from the US or if it would be too expensive then cut down our order by at least half.

We need an all purpose aircraft that can do a wide range of jobs due to our huge country and various regions. Each region having its own priorities. I feel that the cost will keep increasing and that isn't good.

[waldo]

I wonder how much it would cost to get out of the contract from the US or if it would be too expensive then cut down our order by at least half.

there is no contract. It was your boys, Harper, MacKay, Fantino, Hawn, etc., who incorrectly gave notice of a "contract"... which, of course, they now have pulled back on. You do remember the pre-election dance played out... don't you? Where Harper Conservatives lied to the Canadian public about the cost of the F-35 purchase... lied about there being a contract... lied about the operational costs of the F-35, lied about all the supposed benefits to Canadian firms... etc., etc., etc.

[Guest Derek L]

So, just watched a rebroadcast of the Fifth Estates show on the F-35.…………WOW, what a joke, especially their four “experts”

1. Pierre Sprey…………This program claimed he designed both the F-16 & A-10.……Bullshit……Mr Sprey, then in his late 20s and early 30s, was brought into the Pentagon (under McNamara) and later worked on the taskforces that helped draft the requirements, that designers at Fairchild Republic (the A-10) bore to fruition……..As this mirrored his involvement in the US lightweight fighter program, which like the A-10 program, ultimately designers at General Dynamics (The F-16) and Northrop (The F-17, and what later would become the F-18 Hornet) did the heavy lifting………..Mr Sprey is a mathematician, not an engineer………..

This was clearly demonstrated in the interview when he remarked that the F-35 would be a less capable aircraft at replacing the USMC/RN/RAF’s Harriers due to the F-35 having “small wings” thusly making it less manoeuvrable……..Clearly Mr Sprey doesn’t understand the concept of wing loading, an equation that is the sum of the weight of the aircraft divided by wing area……..The higher the wing loading, the less manoeuvrable the aircraft will be……The Harrier has a higher wing loading then the F-35, plus more than half the top speed of the F-35.……too say nothing of range and weapons loading………..

He also failed to mentioned the naval version, the F-35C, will have a larger wing to accommodate the differing requirements of US naval aviation…………

Mr Sprey, IIRC, back in the 70s also called the US Army’s M1 Abrams tanks and Bradley IFV abject failures……………

2. Winslow Wheeler……….Well I’ve already talked about him, his past criticisms included the AH-64 Apache attack helicopter, the Los Angeles nuclear attack subs, the Minuteman ICBMs and the entire AEGIS program………..This guys critic of the F-35 ensures that it will be a success

3 Steven Staples……….Really? This guy is about as qualified to talk on defence maters as I am on women’s hygiene products……….

4. Alan Williams…..Well he was for the JSF before he was against it, left government and wrote a book.

5. I’m surprised they didn’t have the lead drummer from the local occupy movement, a representative of the Quebec student protestors, and for balance, the janitor at the Canada Aviation and Space museum in Ottawa.

As the host stated at the beginning of the program, no one from the Government, DND/DoD or Lockheed would comment for their program………..And they wonder why?

Edited October 1, 2012 by Derek L

[Mr.Canada]

there is no contract. It was your boys, Harper, MacKay, Fantino, Hawn, etc., who incorrectly gave notice of a "contract"... which, of course, they now have pulled back on. You do remember the pre-election dance played out... don't you? Where Harper Conservatives lied to the Canadian public about the cost of the F-35 purchase... lied about there being a contract... lied about the operational costs of the F-35, lied about all the supposed benefits to Canadian firms... etc., etc., etc.

No government is perfect waldo and they all make mistakes. Even if the NDP were in power they to would make mistakes as well. I really do believe that everyone involved thinks they are doing what they think is right. I don't think that they are going to make decisions they feel will hurt Canada.

I'm not convinced that they intentionality lied either, that's a bit much. You're suggesting that Harper and everyone else involved had knowledge different from what they told us. As I said I don't think any government is going to try to hurt this country but they will all do what they think is best. They could've handled it better because the optics of this are terrible.

I'd rather people come out and say they messed up but we're taking steps to correct it and we're going to include the public every step of the way. That would go a long way with me.

[Guest Derek L]

ya, ya... who needs a real open competition - just get all the competitors information from LockMart! Who needs that open bid process, negotiating best price/benefits from all competitors... just buy the vapourware F-35 - after all, what's a decade+ of astronomical failures, delays, price increases and cost overruns!

hey now, did ya read, given the ongoing delays, the Aussies have just announced they are forced to retrofit all their F-18s... you know, just like Canada had to (to the tune of ~$2 billion)..... do you think LockMart will cut them an eventual break on F-35 pricing?

whaaa! "Runaway Fighter"! Well done, Fifth Estate!

hey now... any news yet on that press release you were touting? Are you still looking for it?

[/indent]

The RAAF’s Hornets, went through a similar upgrade (To bring them to “C” standard avionics) as ours……As to a structural upgrade, similar to what the USN & USMC put their’s through (The Center Barrel program), the Australians piggybacked onto the end of our program, delivered by BAE (not Lockheed) in Quebec, we only structurally upgraded ~35-40 of our aircraft, well the RAAF only chose to upgrade under 12.………..That foresight, can be attributed to the penny pinching of both the Canadian and Australian Liberal governments of over ten years ago………

[waldo]

there is no contract. It was your boys, Harper, MacKay, Fantino, Hawn, etc., who incorrectly gave notice of a "contract"... which, of course, they now have pulled back on. You do remember the pre-election dance played out... don't you? Where Harper Conservatives lied to the Canadian public about the cost of the F-35 purchase... lied about there being a contract... lied about the operational costs of the F-35, lied about all the supposed benefits to Canadian firms... etc., etc., etc.

I'm not convinced that they intentionality lied either, that's a bit much. You're suggesting that Harper and everyone else involved had knowledge different from what they told us. As I said I don't think any government is going to try to hurt this country but they will all do what they think is best. They could've handled it better because the optics of this are terrible.

I'd rather people come out and say they messed up but we're taking steps to correct it and we're going to include the public every step of the way. That would go a long way with me.

oh... you mean transparency and accountability? Hey now, wasn't that what your boys campaigned on? Yes, the lies were purposeful... as we now know, after the 2011 election, the full/true costs of the F-35 (of that day), were known by Harper Conservatives - they purposely chose to lie to the Canadian public as to the true costs. Perhaps you should read the AGs report. Perhaps you should reacquaint yourself with the timing of the 2011 election and the lead-up Harper Conservative lies that played prominently in the election campaign/result. Do you need to be reminded what the non-confidence vote and contempt of Parliament ruling was all about? You know, Harper Conservatives failure to provide information as requested... inclusive of full disclosure on the F-35. So much for Harper Conservatives "transparency and accountability", hey?

[waldo]

So, just watched a rebroadcast of the Fifth Estates show on the F-35.…………WOW, what a joke, especially their four “experts”

ya, ya... all these guys have an agenda... a vendetta! Certainly, anyone critical of the F-35 can't stand up to your fanboy credentials!

As the host stated at the beginning of the program, no one from the Government, DND/DoD or Lockheed would comment for their program………..And they wonder why?

why wouldn't there be any comment forthcoming from the Government, DND/DoD or LockMart? Why would they be unwilling to respond to investigative inquiry? What would they be afraid of? What do they have to hide? Why wouldn't they do everything they could to attempt to present 'their side' of the situation/issue? Why wouldn't they be attempting to ensure a more representative accounting? Oh, right... carry on!

[cybercoma]

Clearly the JSF office has sufficient corporate knowledge of the “competitors” wares………..

Yeah. I'm sure if you ask the Ford dealer to tell you about GM's products, they would share their sufficient corporate knowledge with you as a buyer.

Seriously, Derek. What a stupid thing to say.