F-35 purchase undecided, Fantino says

[dre]

What I'm saying is that they couldn't know what all the spinoffs from this particular project would be.

Why not? I read that as part of our initial investment we got about 200 contracts making various components. I also read that they were not contingent apon actually purchasing the plane.

Either way... it seems like we have no real information at all.

If the government wants to take 30 billion dollars from people for the biggest purchase in Canadian history then they should do extensive analysis on each possible option, and show us why this option won out.

Im am being absolutely serious when I tell you that Im supposed to provide more documentation and comparative analysis to my boss in order to procure a small bank of servers than the government has shared with the public around this gigantic purchase.

Why would our government ignore basic common sense procurement methodology and processes that are pretty much universally used in the private sector?

[fellowtraveller]

Why would they do that?

Because the current fleet of F-18 is nearing the end of their life cycle.

[dre]

as I recall, that decision rationale was 'outsourced' to the U.S.; i.e., there were no formal requirements defined by the Canadian Forces... requirements that should have been, obviously, tailored specifically to Canadian needs. I would like/relish to be corrected on this.

It would not suprise me but I hope thats not the case.

Maybe we need to start back at square one...

1. Define our requirements.

2. Count our money (establish a fully funded deficit neutral budget)

3. Establish a list of platforms that meet our newly defined requirements.

4. Perform a risk analysis of each option.

5. Perform a cost/benefit analysis of each option.

[Wild Bill]

Why would our government ignore basic common sense procurement methodology and processes that are pretty much universally used in the private sector?

Dr. Dre, my career was mostly selling electronic parts but I did spend a short time at a Westinghouse location as a buyer, in the late 80's/early 90's.

So I had experience buying military parts, DND procedures and requirements and so on.

If you had done the same you would never have asked your question! Coming from a modern and leading edge electronic manufacturing world into that military environment was like growing up working for RIM and then taking a job at General Motors - 1956!

That world is almost incapable of change, because it doesn't have to! Worse yet, for the most part military specs for electronic resistors and such are so obsolete as to ensure quality far BELOW that of typical commercial builds!

When I left, the military was trying to get around the quality issue by mil-spec-ing an entire unit rather than all the parts involved. However, the paperwork and procedure issues as far as I know are still the same.

Things get done but always in the most expensive and time-intensive manner.

[Rocky Road]

scrap the order, save the money.

[dre]

Dr. Dre, my career was mostly selling electronic parts but I did spend a short time at a Westinghouse location as a buyer, in the late 80's/early 90's.

So I had experience buying military parts, DND procedures and requirements and so on.

If you had done the same you would never have asked your question! Coming from a modern and leading edge electronic manufacturing world into that military environment was like growing up working for RIM and then taking a job at General Motors - 1956!

That world is almost incapable of change, because it doesn't have to! Worse yet, for the most part military specs for electronic resistors and such are so obsolete as to ensure quality far BELOW that of typical commercial builds!

When I left, the military was trying to get around the quality issue by mil-spec-ing an entire unit rather than all the parts involved. However, the paperwork and procedure issues as far as I know are still the same.

Things get done but always in the most expensive and time-intensive manner.

Interesting perspective. That pretty much what Im worried about.

[madmax]

As noted, if they don't buy the F-35s, they'll buy something else equally costly. Glad you approve.

you have little faith....

regardless

its time to invest in the ground forces..

[madmax]

Dr. Dre, my career was mostly selling electronic parts but I did spend a short time at a Westinghouse location as a buyer, in the late 80's/early 90's.

So I had experience buying military parts, DND procedures and requirements and so on.

If you had done the same you would never have asked your question! Coming from a modern and leading edge electronic manufacturing world into that military environment was like growing up working for RIM and then taking a job at General Motors - 1956!

That world is almost incapable of change, because it doesn't have to! Worse yet, for the most part military specs for electronic resistors and such are so obsolete as to ensure quality far BELOW that of typical commercial builds!

When I left, the military was trying to get around the quality issue by mil-spec-ing an entire unit rather than all the parts involved. However, the paperwork and procedure issues as far as I know are still the same.

Things get done but always in the most expensive and time-intensive manner.

nothing has changed...good post..

[Smallc]

you have little faith....

regardless

its time to invest in the ground forces..

That's pretty much all we've been doing for the last 10 years. The navy and the airforce have suffered at the expense of equipment needed for the war.

[Guest Derek L]

just where are all those MLW guys who so forcefully and adamantly continued to play out the Harper Conservatives 'F-35 broken record' routine... in the face of any and every critical comment offered, or any and every expressed uncertainty from other countries, or any and every program misstep, etc..

Right here………I haven’t bothered with comment because it’s a non story…………DND already has a cadre of personal associated with the JSF transition…….The Minsters words, if one heard/saw the entire exchange still demonstrated support for the program:

"We have not as yet discounted, the possibility, of course, of backing out of any of the program," Fantino, associate minister of national defence, told the House defence committee Tuesday.

"None of the partners have. We are not. And we’ll just have to think it through further as time goes on, but we are confident that we will not leave Canada or our men and women in uniform in a lurch, but it’s hypothetical to go any further right now."

The reason why those that “play the broken record” aren’t commenting nor claiming the sky is falling is simple……….There’s no alternative aircraft, currently in production or mature design, that will still be in production later this decade………..All other options of earlier generation aircraft (Super Hornet/Viper/Silent Eagle/Eurofighter etc) production lines will be closing in the next several years……….To have a company, like Boeing, restart production of an aircraft after the line has been closed for such a small run, wouldn’t be economically feasible, for them and us………Once the Super Hornet line closes in St Louis, Boeing will begin work on the 6th generation (Super Hornet replacement) and UCAVs.

[Guest Derek L]

It is my understanding that most of the cost overruns and engine issues are largely with the F-35B and F35-C (the STOL and VTOL and carrier models), and will not affect the F35A. If there are significant cost overruns with the conventional takeoff and landing model, it would only make sense to objectively review any cost implications. I'm not sure that being cautious and objective about such a large purchase is putting themselves in danger, although I would agree it does put them in a position of criticism by parties looking to criticize at any and all opportunity.

The “B” is no longer on “probation” and has been conducting sea trial since last year………And both the “B” and “C” are in the process of being handed over to NAVAIR.

Enjoy:

[Guest Derek L]

as I recall, that decision rationale was 'outsourced' to the U.S.; i.e., there were no formal requirements defined by the Canadian Forces... requirements that should have been, obviously, tailored specifically to Canadian needs. I would like/relish to be corrected on this.

Define specific “Canadian Needs”.

[bush_cheney2004]

The “B” is no longer on “probation” and has been conducting sea trial since last year………And both the “B” and “C” are in the process of being handed over to NAVAIR.

I guess some here won't believe that production F-35's actually exist until one of them actually kills something.

[bush_cheney2004]

Define specific “Canadian Needs”.

Canada has purposely defined such needs as "future requirements", not just the replacement of current CF-18 capabilities with new airframes:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/pri/2/pro-pro/ngfc-fs-ft/or-bo-eng.asp

Edited March 15, 2012 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest Derek L]

I guess some here won't believe that production F-35's actually exist until one of them actually kills something.

Indeed or mention the Japanese and destined (For this fall) South Korean selection of the JSF………..With all the experts opining about the Super Bug, makes you wonder why Boeing didn’t submit it instead of the X-32 for the JSF competition……..Or why the Indian’s and the Brazilian’s have found the French offer has better regional offsets then Boeing.

[Guest Derek L]

Canada has purposely defined such needs as "future requirements", not just the replacement of current CF-18 capabilities with new airframes:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/pri/2/pro-pro/ngfc-fs-ft/or-bo-eng.asp

Oh, I know them....Clearly our needs, and those of the British, Norwegians, Dutch, Israelis, Japanese, Turks, Italians, Spanish etc are all defined for us by the United States.

[bush_cheney2004]

Indeed or mention the Japanese and destined (For this fall) South Korean selection of the JSF………..With all the experts opining about the Super Bug, makes you wonder why Boeing didn’t submit it instead of the X-32 for the JSF competition……..Or why the Indian’s and the Brazilian’s have found the French offer has better regional offsets then Boeing.

Twilight of the Super Bug

[Guest Derek L]

Twilight of the Super Bug

Indeed, and those at the end of production will be the EA-18s....As I said numerous times previous, the time for the Super Hornet in Canadian service would have been 10 years ago………Also, again noted previous, if we somehow did purchase the Bugs later this decade, and like our current Hornets, plan to use them for near 35-40 years, they will be going out of service in the late 2040s and perhaps early 2050s……….Well the USN plans to start retiring them in in the later part of the 2020s, so unlike our current Hornets, once the production has ended and the USN retires them, I wonder who’s going to picking up the tab for support for the remaining 20 years of their lives

[waldo]

as I recall, that decision rationale was 'outsourced' to the U.S.; i.e., there were no formal requirements defined by the Canadian Forces... requirements that should have been, obviously, tailored specifically to Canadian needs. I would like/relish to be corrected on this.

Define specific “Canadian Needs”.

it's all coming back now... under intense pressure from the Opposition parties, Harper Conservatives repeatedly floundered when continually asked to provide the set of Canadian requirements the F-35 was presumably meeting. Ultimately, some wag tagged the lack of defined requirements as another example of Harper Conservative outsourcing! In any case, eventually an official non-release was provided:

In a December 2010 press briefing, staff from the Canadian Forces Directorate of Air Requirements stated that the F-35 was the only aircraft that matched their

list of 14 mandatory and 56 less absolute requirements

. They claimed that the list was not devised to ensure that only the F-35 met these requirements, but that the list

could not be revealed to the public because the requirements are "highly classified," and "a question of national security.

highly classified... and a question of national security! Apparently, there' just no way of translating those requirements into a generalized unclassified equivalent. So ya, we're Harper Conservatives... trust us - we're fully accountable and transparent!

[Guest Derek L]

it's all coming back now... under intense pressure from the Opposition parties, Harper Conservatives repeatedly floundered when continually asked to provide the set of Canadian requirements the F-35 was presumably meeting. Ultimately, some wag tagged the lack of defined requirements as another example of Harper Conservative outsourcing! In any case, eventually an official non-release was provided:

highly classified... and a question of national security! Apparently, there' just no way of translating those requirements into a generalized unclassified equivalent. So ya, we're Harper Conservatives... trust us - we're fully accountable and transparent!

Uhhhh....bush_cheney2004 provided this link last page:

Operational Requirements

[MACKER]

The real trick now is a made in Canada model that will be rapidly developed for a fraction of the cost of the f35.

#1. Bombardier Aerospace

What more could you ask for in a stealth fighter bomber?

Bomb bard dier...

" Mach 2 + "Avro Arrow"

Do the NEXTGEN ARROW

THE BOMBARDIER ARROW!

put some of this stuff on it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_stealth

throw on a couple missile racks...

DONE.

Unit cost C$3.5–5 million

at 9 billion we could build 1800 BOMBARDIER ARROWS.

Toll free.

We could go Japanese on our enemy throw in a drone computer system and we'd probably save money on manning them or putting missiles on them which might cost more.

Just tip em.

PLASMA DEATH ARROWS OF BOMBARDIER.

The cost is all R&D we already know how all this stuff works so why the money?

surely Canada has a few smart people that can reverse engineer and chuck one of these things on a lear arrow?

http://www.selexgalileo.com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Press_Releases/Backgrounders/07Vixen_radar_Backgrounder.pdf

plasma selex

5000

arrow revise engine

pump op the speed a bit.

http://www.avbuyer.com/aircraft/detailed.aspx?aId=29829&Cat=Business-Jets&seo=Bombardier/Global%205000

advanced ai autopilot

They could run commercial during peacetime..

lower the operating cost and and maybe even make more money than aircanada.

heck any old plane that has a mach 3 engine can run intercept.. just have some Peacekeeper II's standing by if they really want to fight.

who needs to overflight hostile countries when cruise missiles exist?

Look at what the british did with it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raytheon_Sentinel

The point is Canada could build a sufficient made at home system keep all the money in Canada and see 15% cost savings on what they spend, and help build Canada's aerospace industry.

Just require all technology and materials to be made in canada, source in Canada.

It will be good for the economy.

The key to a solid defence is nukes and lots of them

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/icbm/lgm-118.htm

The US tunnels under windsor etc.. can be used for more uses now...

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/icbm/rgmx_01.jpg

Underground peacekeeping railroad and nuclear armagedon... SCREW STREATH or plasma coat the bomb. A spoon full of plasma helps he medicine go down.

ARROWS AND NUKES.. it is the best 21+ billion Canada can spend on aerospace defence.. they don't call it it arrowspace for nuttin.

Edited March 15, 2012 by MACKER

[Guest Derek L]

The real trick now is a made in Canada model that will be rapidly developed for a fraction of the cost of the f35.

#1. Bombardier Aerospace

What more could you ask for in a stealth fighter bomber?

Bomb bard dier...

{See Avro Arrow}

[Guest Derek L]

The real trick now is a made in Canada model that will be rapidly developed for a fraction of the cost of the f35.

#1. Bombardier Aerospace

What more could you ask for in a stealth fighter bomber?

Bomb bard dier...

" Mach 2 + "Avro Arrow"

Do the NEXTGEN ARROW

THE BOMBARDIER ARROW!

put some of this stuff on it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_stealth

throw on a couple missile racks...

DONE.

Bombardier has zero experience in building modern, multi-role fighters…………..Aside from the Americans and heavily subsidized French, no established Western Aerospace companies “go it alone” anymore……..Even the Americans are facing the fiscal restraints of this approach, hence the international “flavour” of the JSF through the partner nations….

[MACKER]

Bombardier has zero experience in building modern, multi-role fighters…………..Aside from the Americans and heavily subsidized French, no established Western Aerospace companies “go it alone” anymore……..Even the Americans are facing the fiscal restraints of this approach, hence the international “flavour” of the JSF through the partner nations….

And the snowmobile took a little time too.

But look what we have now. They can build a plane,

You are defeatist... anyone can go it alone and sacreblu if you disagree as it is words of a zombie.

It really doesn't matter 6th generation sltealth aerospace combat platforms are no brainers to build. It is just who gets the money.

Ask any given aerospaceengineer worth their salt to build a combat jet and they should be able to pull it off over aweekend if you supply some coffee and donuts.

Edited March 15, 2012 by MACKER

[waldo]

Uhhhh....bush_cheney2004 provided this link last page:

Operational Requirements

missed it as I have the guy on ignore and have to force myself to open his posts... which I rarely do anymore. In any case, short of one bullet item, that list is a sales job to the public - it hardly rises to the level of substantiating the plane selection, let alone the expenditure.