Argus Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 I don't agree with Anonymous' methods... As I said before,I would prefer Dr. Anne Cavoukian's more reasoned approach... However,the intransigence of the current gang of autocratic authoritarian bullies controlling things in Ottawa needs to change. Yeah, they're unique in the anals of Canadian political history. When the Liberal government of Paul Martin introduced the Modernization of Investigative Techniques Act in November of 2005, it received comparatively little attention. As the columnist Thomas Walkom described it in the Toronto Star, the bill would require Internet and telephone companies “to install equipment that would allow the state to monitor all of their customers… t would give police … the power to demand, without the need for court warrants, any information that [these] companies keep on their customers — including addresses, passwords and credit card information.” The public safety minister at the time, Anne McLellan, was quoted to the effect that the police needed the new powers to go after terrorists and child pornographers. Same old bill, new hysteria Sayyyy, weren't most of you complaining so hysterically Liberal supporters? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Wild Bill Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 Who gets to release personal information on the members of Anonymous? And why are they interfering in our politics and especially the specifics of particular domestic Canadian legislation? Who made Anonymous the politics sheriffs? Who made them the truth sheriffs? Who made them the legislation sheriffs? Who made them the arbitors of justice? And who holds them accountable? You may be right, Shady. This might be a case of a cure worse than the disease! What we are witnessing here is blackmail,pure and simple. True, Vic seems a despicable sort but hey, he IS a politician! At least he was elected! No one elected Anonymous! Their arrogance is staggering! I could respect them if they simply wanted to blow the whistle on corruption and hypocrisy. If they have dirt on Vic or any other politician, then just publish it! No, where Anonymous has gone too far is to use dirt as a blackmail lever. In effect, they want to control our elected parliament with their threats, to achieve THEIR ends! Now, in this particular case, getting Vic's Bill killed is something I would agree with but NOT because Anonymous might have some power! I never elected anyone in Anonymous and have absolutely no input into their policies. Next time they might do something I DON'T agree with! What then? Can I vote them out? This is the problem with any vigilantes. As I said, I would far rather have Anonymous just dump any and all dirt they have on any politicians of any party out into the open air. By using blackmail, they have put themselves above the law of the land. To me, they are no different in character than the man they are attacking! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Argus Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 why am I not surprised, you are a harper supporter For lack of a better alternative, yes, but I don't support this bill. But I'm not a hysteric, either. Maybe you should grow up a little. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Jack Weber Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 Yeah, they're unique in the anals of Canadian political history. When the Liberal government of Paul Martin introduced the Modernization of Investigative Techniques Act in November of 2005, it received comparatively little attention. As the columnist Thomas Walkom described it in the Toronto Star, the bill would require Internet and telephone companies “to install equipment that would allow the state to monitor all of their customers… t would give police … the power to demand, without the need for court warrants, any information that [these] companies keep on their customers — including addresses, passwords and credit card information.” The public safety minister at the time, Anne McLellan, was quoted to the effect that the police needed the new powers to go after terrorists and child pornographers. Same old bill, new hysteria Sayyyy, weren't most of you complaining so hysterically Liberal supporters? Not I,sir... My privacy is my privacy,regardless of politcal stripe... That bill was equally odious... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
olpfan1 Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Posted February 25, 2012 Yeah, they're unique in the anals of Canadian political history. When the Liberal government of Paul Martin introduced the Modernization of Investigative Techniques Act in November of 2005, it received comparatively little attention. As the columnist Thomas Walkom described it in the Toronto Star, the bill would require Internet and telephone companies “to install equipment that would allow the state to monitor all of their customers… t would give police … the power to demand, without the need for court warrants, any information that [these] companies keep on their customers — including addresses, passwords and credit card information.” The public safety minister at the time, Anne McLellan, was quoted to the effect that the police needed the new powers to go after terrorists and child pornographers. Same old bill, new hysteria Sayyyy, weren't most of you complaining so hysterically Liberal supporters? The internet was just beginning to catch on then... we werent internet crazy then like we are now canadians spend more time online now than any other country was facebook / twitter around then? no was anonymous? no Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 (edited) You may be right, Shady. This might be a case of a cure worse than the disease! What we are witnessing here is blackmail,pure and simple. True, Vic seems a despicable sort but hey, he IS a politician! At least he was elected! No one elected Anonymous! Their arrogance is staggering! I could respect them if they simply wanted to blow the whistle on corruption and hypocrisy. If they have dirt on Vic or any other politician, then just publish it! No, where Anonymous has gone too far is to use dirt as a blackmail lever. In effect, they want to control our elected parliament with their threats, to achieve THEIR ends! Now, in this particular case, getting Vic's Bill killed is something I would agree with but NOT because Anonymous might have some power! I never elected anyone in Anonymous and have absolutely no input into their policies. Next time they might do something I DON'T agree with! What then? Can I vote them out? This is the problem with any vigilantes. As I said, I would far rather have Anonymous just dump any and all dirt they have on any politicians of any party out into the open air. By using blackmail, they have put themselves above the law of the land. To me, they are no different in character than the man they are attacking! It's a tough one.... On one hand we have a bill right out of the blueprint of authoritarian regimes from the past so the state could esentially spy on anyone who opposed them,and in so doing,using either vague language or deliberately inflammatory language to stunt any discussion or debate on the subject (by a particularily disagreeable minister,by the way) On the other hand,we have an anonymous group of internet vigilante's who seem to be hellbent on destroying a person and imposing their agenda as an unassailable (sp),and unelected, parallel power.It seems like a case of switching one form of tyrrany for another... The question,at least to me is,... How does a populace motivate a seemingly intransigent government,that in this case has a majority and can do whatever it pleases, to change it's mind???The track record of the current party in power is not one of calm reflection and comprimise,is it? Edited February 25, 2012 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
olpfan1 Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Posted February 25, 2012 Anonymous isn't giving them policies and black mailing them if they dont follow through with it they are only trying to protect the average canadians right to privacy, and rights to OUR multimedia content Yes they are extreme but so is this governments agenda Quote
Wild Bill Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 It's a tough one.... On one hand we have a bill right out of the blueprint of authoritarian regimes from the past so the state could esentially spy on anyone who opposed them,and in so doing,sing either vague language or deliberately inflammatory language to stunt any discussion or debate on the subject (by a particularily disagreeable minister,by the way) On the other hand,we have an anonymous group of internet vigilante's who seem to be hellbent on destroying a person and imposing their agenda as an unassailable (sp),and unelected, parallel power.It seems like a case of switching one form of tyrrany for another... The question,at least to me is,... How does a populace motivate a seemingly intransigent government,that in this case has a majority and can do whatever it pleases,to to change it's mind???The track record of the current party in power is not one of calm reflection and comprimise,is it? We do it at the ballot box, Jack! If there's not enough votes to make a change then the majority of people get what they want! If we allow a minority to get its way through blackmail then we might as well scrap all elections and any pretense of majority democracy. We will simply be governed by a powerful group of elites. There really isn't any other way it could work! I would much rather grit my teeth and put up with a government I despised until such time as an election would throw them out then use blackmail to get that government to do as I say! I'm used to just gritting my teeth! I despised the entire Chretien era! That being said, before I would sanction letting a vigilante group like Anonymous to control my government I would seriously think about getting a gun and being a vigilante myself! I don't want my children growing up in a Canada run by the likes of Anonymous! At least I can hope that someone like Vic gets voted out! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
capricorn Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 Let's suppose the entire bill is scrapped. No doubt Anonymous would take credit. That will buoy them to do what next? To what level will take their pressure tactics if they get to believe it is they who caused the bill to be withdrawn? Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
Argus Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 The internet was just beginning to catch on then... we werent internet crazy then like we are now canadians spend more time online now than any other country Oh. So it was okay to introduce that bill, then. All rightieeee.... Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
olpfan1 Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Posted February 25, 2012 Oh. So it was okay to introduce that bill, then. All rightieeee.... I think its clear that the internet means more to us now than it did back then Quote
olpfan1 Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Posted February 25, 2012 Wild Bill, the government is controlled by Oil corporations.. not by the Prime Minister or mps As for elections.. have you been in a cave the last few days? WAKE UP Times are changing in this country.. its no longer 1995 Quote
cybercoma Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 why am I not surprised, you are a harper supporter I don't see him as a Harper supporter. Argus seems to be conservative, but, to use a cliche, he marches to the beat of his own drum. Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 We do it at the ballot box, Jack! If there's not enough votes to make a change then the majority of people get what they want! If we allow a minority to get its way through blackmail then we might as well scrap all elections and any pretense of majority democracy. We will simply be governed by a powerful group of elites. There really isn't any other way it could work! I would much rather grit my teeth and put up with a government I despised until such time as an election would throw them out then use blackmail to get that government to do as I say! I'm used to just gritting my teeth! I despised the entire Chretien era! That being said, before I would sanction letting a vigilante group like Anonymous to control my government I would seriously think about getting a gun and being a vigilante myself! I don't want my children growing up in a Canada run by the likes of Anonymous! At least I can hope that someone like Vic gets voted out! The problem with this bill is it's sweeping powers it gives police to go into every individuals private lives.I don't think we can wait for 4 more years to throw these right wing authoritarian types out of office,assuming we agree this is the thing that will remedy this situation. In the Cavoukian interview I posted,she talks about how privacy is the first thing to go when seemingly democratic jurisdiction morph into authoritarian states...There's a reason people have fought against this type of police state action throughout history,and sitting idly by for four more years really is'nt an answer(when one considers the other potential election illegalities surrounding the current party in power).It won't matter in four years because our privacy rights won't just be comprimised...They will be gone. I suspect a libertarian,such as yourself,is more than a little outraged at this bill put forth by Mr.Toews and his cronies? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
olpfan1 Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Posted February 25, 2012 Let's suppose the entire bill is scrapped. No doubt Anonymous would take credit. That will buoy them to do what next? To what level will take their pressure tactics if they get to believe it is they who caused the bill to be withdrawn? I can't see Harper scrapping any bill from blackmail, he has too much pride Whatever Anonymous has on them will come out and we'll see if it does anything I think its well known in Ottawa that Harper and Laureen are split up they both live in different residences Quote
Jack Weber Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 Let's suppose the entire bill is scrapped. No doubt Anonymous would take credit. That will buoy them to do what next? To what level will take their pressure tactics if they get to believe it is they who caused the bill to be withdrawn? That's the problem with uncomprimising and visceral approaches to this... The bill is horrendous and I believe there is sufficient outrage over this attempt at legalizing government intrusion into our private lives across the political spectrum to get it thrown out..Or have significan ammendments made to it... But is there any evidence that the current party in power is ever interested in watering down it's idealogical wine? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Wild Bill Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 Anonymous isn't giving them policies and black mailing them if they dont follow through with it they are only trying to protect the average canadians right to privacy, and rights to OUR multimedia content Yes they are extreme but so is this governments agenda Perhaps they are not originating policies but they are certainly claiming the power of veto! "Anonymous demands the immediate resignation of Vic Toews, the scrapping of Bills C-30 and C-11 in their entirety, and a formal apology to the people of Canada for referring to them as supporters of pedophilia, and more importantly, for attempting to infringe on their most basic civil rights." Seems pretty clear to me! Are we both speaking English here, olpfan1? I understand how some like Jack feel a sense of urgency. So do I! I have no use or respect for Vic's Bill either but if Anonymous wins this one then we will have LOST our democratic rights! It will no longer be our democratically elected Parliament that is supreme. It will be Anonymous! Who will be their next target? Who will decide what stand they will take on any particular issue? Someone like you or Jack might be very happy for them to beat Vic this time. What will you think if next time Anonymous is on the OTHER side of an issue you cherish? For that is the crux of the problem with a vigilante group like Anonymous! If even the majority of citizens disagree with them on any particular issue, as far as Anonymous is concerned that's just too doggone bad! They will do as ANONYMOUS sees fit, NOT as you, I or any other citizens do! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Jack Weber Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 Perhaps they are not originating policies but they are certainly claiming the power of veto! "Anonymous demands the immediate resignation of Vic Toews, the scrapping of Bills C-30 and C-11 in their entirety, and a formal apology to the people of Canada for referring to them as supporters of pedophilia, and more importantly, for attempting to infringe on their most basic civil rights." Seems pretty clear to me! Are we both speaking English here, olpfan1? I understand how some like Jack feel a sense of urgency. So do I! I have no use or respect for Vic's Bill either but if Anonymous wins this one then we will have LOST our democratic rights! It will no longer be our democratically elected Parliament that is supreme. It will be Anonymous! Who will be their next target? Who will decide what stand they will take on any particular issue? Someone like you or Jack might be very happy for them to beat Vic this time. What will you think if next time Anonymous is on the OTHER side of an issue you cherish? For that is the crux of the problem with a vigilante group like Anonymous! If even the majority of citizens disagree with them on any particular issue, as far as Anonymous is concerned that's just too doggone bad! They will do as ANONYMOUS sees fit, NOT as you, I or any other citizens do! Please don't lump me in with the fans of Anonymous... I've posted a far more reasoned approach on the first page that I agree with completely.I've also said that I think Anonymous is playing with fire here because they could,through their actions,make a creep like Toews into a sympathetic character (which he does'nt deserve,by the way).. Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Wild Bill Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 I suspect a libertarian,such as yourself,is more than a little outraged at this bill put forth by Mr.Toews and his cronies? More than outraged, Jack! It's just that I don't think you've really thought this all the way through! It won't end with Vic! And next time, it might be YOUR ox that's gored! In effect, you're accepting a fascist style dictator in your zeal to deal with a bad Bill. Once you give such the reins, that dictator doesn't have to listen to YOU anymore! I agree that this Bill should be scrapped but not THIS way! It is BECAUSE I am a Libertarian that I want no part of any group of blackmailers like Anonymous! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Jack Weber Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 More than outraged, Jack! It's just that I don't think you've really thought this all the way through! It won't end with Vic! And next time, it might be YOUR ox that's gored! In effect, you're accepting a fascist style dictator in your zeal to deal with a bad Bill. Once you give such the reins, that dictator doesn't have to listen to YOU anymore! I agree that this Bill should be scrapped but not THIS way! It is BECAUSE I am a Libertarian that I want no part of any group of blackmailers like Anonymous! You'll have to point out where I agree with Anonymous' methods... I think you've misread me on this one... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
olpfan1 Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Posted February 25, 2012 You keep talking about a democratically elected government Bill but as far as I am concerned the way they won this last election by cheating taints this government more than ad scam tainted the liberals Quote
Wild Bill Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 Please don't lump me in with the fans of Anonymous... I've posted a far more reasoned approach on the first page that I agree with completely.I've also said that I think Anonymous is playing with fire here because they could,through their actions,make a creep like Toews into a sympathetic character (which he does'nt deserve,by the way).. I didn't see your reply until after I posted, Jack. I'm relieved to see that you HAVE thought it through! I don't think Vic will get any sympathy. Who has sympathy for a politician? No, it's the political power that scares the daylights out of me! That's always the problem with the righteous! If they think it important enough, they have no problem with cutting off SOMEONE ELSE'S arm! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
capricorn Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 The bill is horrendous and I believe there is sufficient outrage over this attempt at legalizing government intrusion into our private lives across the political spectrum to get it thrown out..Or have significan ammendments made to it... Personally, I think there was enough opposition, even from Conservatives and their supporters, that the government would have got the message without Anonymous' contribution. The danger is that depending what happens to the Bill, scrapping or major overhaul, Anonymous will feel instrumental in the government's backtrack. That will set a pattern that as WB said could seriously usurp what we're trying to do democratically. Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
Wild Bill Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 You keep talking about a democratically elected government Bill but as far as I am concerned the way they won this last election by cheating taints this government more than ad scam tainted the liberals So therefore anything goes as far as forcing them to do what YOU want? Legalities and the majority will of the voters be damned? It's all about what YOU think and who YOU like? I now believe that you have absolutely no concept of democracy at all! To you, because you don't like the Harper government you seem to see nothing wrong with blackmail! You seem blissfully blind to the collateral consequences! I've already stated my distaste for Vic many times and my objections to his Bill as well. That doesn't mean I would destroy Canadian democracy to get what I want! Believe it or not, I believe in democracy for everyone, including YOU! However, it is perfectly obvious to anyone trying to follow your arguments that you do not believe the same for your fellow citizens. You only think it should apply to those who agree with you! You remind me of a baby with a machine gun! You should really think a lot deeper on such issues! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
cybercoma Posted February 25, 2012 Report Posted February 25, 2012 You'll have to point out where I agree with Anonymous' methods... I think you've misread me on this one... I think everyone on the Left is being lumped in with olp's Anonymous cheerleading. I, for one, am not comfortable with their tactics, even if they're on the same side. It seems hypocritical to me to do the things that you're fighting against to make your point. Quote
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