bush_cheney2004 Posted February 21, 2012 Report Posted February 21, 2012 Dr. Dre, if surrendering financial control to the EU was such a bad thing, why did countries like Germany do so much better? How refreshing...a logical question. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted February 22, 2012 Report Posted February 22, 2012 Dr. Dre, if surrendering financial control to the EU was such a bad thing, why did countries like Germany do so much better? You might also ask why, if high taxes were so utterly ruinous for an economy, the Germans are doing so much better than the Americans. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
dre Posted February 22, 2012 Report Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Dr. Dre, if surrendering financial control to the EU was such a bad thing, why did countries like Germany do so much better? They were probably managed better! Im not saying that entering the Eurozone caused every problem Greece has. But being in the Eurozone deprived them of the natural market remedy. Competitive Devaluation. Currency devaluation is a troubled economies best friend. Wages go down which encourages domestic production, makes your exports more attractive, and makes imports more expensive. It also reduces the ammount of real goods and services you have to surrender to pay off your debt. At the end of the day you cant just arbitrarily throw a bunch of completely different economies into a currency union and expect things to work out. Controlling your currency and monetary policy, interest rates etc, is an important part of managing an economy. Edited February 22, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wild Bill Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 They were probably managed better! Im not saying that entering the Eurozone caused every problem Greece has. But being in the Eurozone deprived them of the natural market remedy. Competitive Devaluation. Currency devaluation is a troubled economies best friend. Wages go down which encourages domestic production, makes your exports more attractive, and makes imports more expensive. It also reduces the ammount of real goods and services you have to surrender to pay off your debt. At the end of the day you cant just arbitrarily throw a bunch of completely different economies into a currency union and expect things to work out. Controlling your currency and monetary policy, interest rates etc, is an important part of managing an economy. There's still something that confuses me, Dr. Dre. If I assume you're right and that allowing your currency to devalue is a great way to reduce your foreign debt load, wouldn't that mean that whoever loaned you the money takes the hit? If that's true, why on earth would anyone lend that country any MORE money? Or are you saying that the money lenders don't mind at all? If that's the case, then what do these credit ratings given to countries, states and provinces really mean? Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Guest Derek L Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 There's still something that confuses me, Dr. Dre. If I assume you're right and that allowing your currency to devalue is a great way to reduce your foreign debt load, wouldn't that mean that whoever loaned you the money takes the hit? If that's true, why on earth would anyone lend that country any MORE money? Or are you saying that the money lenders don't mind at all? If that's the case, then what do these credit ratings given to countries, states and provinces really mean? That’s not necessarily the case………If the Greeks devalued their own independent currency, the potential for foreign investment would increase………I wouldn’t mind buying a dirt cheap home on the Med…. Quote
dre Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) There's still something that confuses me, Dr. Dre. If I assume you're right and that allowing your currency to devalue is a great way to reduce your foreign debt load, wouldn't that mean that whoever loaned you the money takes the hit? If that's true, why on earth would anyone lend that country any MORE money? Absolutely, WB! Your creditors take a bath, as they SHOULD. Its risky business loaning money to a country that consumes way more then it produces, and one where the civil service is 50% percent of GDP. And in the long term its a healthy thing when the market decides an entity is no longer credit worthy. The bank isnt doing you any favors if it loans you more money than you can ever hope to repay. Or are you saying that the money lenders don't mind at all? If that's the case, then what do these credit ratings given to countries, states and provinces really mean? These "bankers" have no skin in the game. Theyre throwing around money that doesnt belong to them. The IMF is funded by tax payers around the world including you and me. The ECB controls the Euro and they can print as much of it as they want it just steals purchasing power from all the other holders of Euros. Theyre also obsessed with the Eurozone and theyre worried that if Greece drops out that countries like Spain, Portugal, Ireland etc will follow, so theyre desperately dumping tax payer dollars onto the pile to try to keep the whole thing afloat. No rational private lender would give Greece a dime of their own money. Edited February 23, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Sa'adoni Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 There is a clear difference between accepting the truth that the sands creates air and water quality issues, and saying Canada can't let other countries such as the US and China develop it. (Two of the worlds biggest polluters) While lowering environmental pollution and moving to become a modern 0 emissions state is a global ideal all should aspire to, the EU should face the fact that it should deal with its own house before attacking another. Although trade wars within NATO are not good. The EU should fix the following list of problems before it targets Canadian Industry: The top 622 facilities causing pollution and the estimated health costs Click heading to sort FacilityName Country Main activity Low 'VOLY' Total aggregated damage cost (million €) High 'VSL' Total aggregated damage cost (million €) Source: EEA PGE Elektrownia Bełchatów S.A. Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 1550 2518 TETs Maritsa iztok 2' EAD Bulgaria Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 1432 3339 Vattenfall Europe Generation AG Kraftwerk Jänschwalde Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 1232 2002 RWE Power AG Bergheim Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 1130 1560 Drax Power Limited United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 1026 1625 Complexul Energetic Turceni Romania Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 889 2082 RWE Power AG Eschweiler Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 824 1135 RWE Power AG Kraftwerk Neurath Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 781 1095 RWE Power AG Kraftwerk Frimmersdorf Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 742 1051 PGE Elektrownia Turów S.A. Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 722 1299 Vattenfall Europe Generation AG Kraftwerk Boxberg Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 713 1059 PPC S.A. SES Megalopolis A’ Greece Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 692 1609 Elektrownia 'Kozienice' S.A. Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 688 1246 Vattenfall Europe Generation AG Kraftwerk Lippendorf Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 677 1107 PPC S.A. SES Agioy Dhmhtrioy Greece Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 629 944 Complexul Energetic Rovinari Romania Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 611 1376 Elektrárny Prunéřov Czech Republic Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 541 949 Centrale Termoelettrica Federico II (BR Sud) Italy Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 536 707 Longannet Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 527 1018 Vattenfall Europe Generation AG Kraftwerk Schwarze Pumpe Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 495 731 Elektrownia 'RYBNIK' S.A. Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 443 791 EDF Energy (Cottam Power) Ltd, Cottam Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 440 711 Arcelormittal Site De Dunkerque France Metals - Installations for the processing of ferrous metals 421 595 ThyssenKrupp Steel Europe AG Werk Schwelgern Germany Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 415 829 Eesti Energia Narva Elektrijaamad AS, Eesti soojuselektrijaam Estonia Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 414 687 PPC S.A. SES Kardias Greece Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 393 503 U.S.Steel s.r.o. Slovakia Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 383 583 Polski Koncern Naftowy Orlen S.A. Poland Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 382 688 Sucursala Electrocentrale Isalnita Romania Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 377 855 Elektrárna Počerady Czech Republic Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 372 625 E.ON UK plc, Ratcliffe-on-Soar Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 369 570 EDF Energy (West Burton Power) Ltd, West Burton Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 368 588 Regia Autonoma Pentru Activitati Nucleare - Sucursala Romag Termo Romania Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 350 858 PGE Elektrownia Opole S.A. Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 346 513 Elektrownia Połaniec Spółka Akcyjna - Grupa Electrabel Polska Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 342 583 Slovenské elektrárne a.s.-Elektrárne Nováky, závod Slovakia Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 337 786 Corus Uk Limited, Teesside Integrated Iron And Steelworks United Kingdom Metals - Installations for the processing of ferrous metals 330 578 Mátrai Erőmű Zrt. Hungary Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 328 491 E.ON Kraftwerke GmbH - Kraftwerk Schkopau Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 314 507 Gorivna instalatsias nominalna toplinna moshtnost Bulgaria Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 313 768 TETs 'Bobov dol' Bulgaria Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 311 723 SC Electrocentrale Deva SA Romania Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 303 686 Zespól Elektrowni Pątnów-Adamów -Konin S.A., Elektrownia Pątnów Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 301 469 Corus Staal BV Netherlands Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 300 457 Salzgitter Flachstahl GmbH Germany Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 298 471 Central Termoeléctrica de Sines Portugal Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 296 357 Total Raffinaderij Antwerpen Belgium Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 294 584 voestalpine Stahl GmbH Austria Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 294 401 Edf Unite De Production Thermique Du Havre France Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 294 612 BASF Se Germany Chemical installations for the production on an industrial scale of basic organic chemicals 288 416 Południowy Koncer Energetyczny S.A., Elektrownia Jaworzno III - Elektrownia III Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 286 452 ILVA S.P.A. Stabilimento di Taranto Italy Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 283 463 Großkraftwerk Mannheim AG/Elektrizitätswerk Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 281 383 Alcan Aluminium Uk Ltd, Alcan Lynemouth Smelter United Kingdom Metals - For the production of non-ferrous crude metals or for the smelting, including the alloying, of non-ferrous metal 279 603 Eggborough Power Ltd, Eggborough Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 273 431 E.ON Kraftwerk Scholven Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 272 411 Central Térmica Litoral De Almería Spain Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 270 439 PGE Zespół Elektrowni Dolna Odra S.A. Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 270 437 RWE npower plc, Aberthaw Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 268 441 Keadby Generations Ltd, Fiddlers Ferry Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 267 415 Correze Incineration France Installations for the incineration of non-hazardous waste in the scope of Directive 2000/76/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 4 December 2000 on the incineration of waste 257 257 Unité De Production Cordemais France Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 257 405 Chemopetrol Czech Republic Chemical installations for the production on an industrial scale of basic organic chemicals 256 434 Raffinerie de Normandie France Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 255 464 ArcelorMittal Ostrava a.s. Czech Republic Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 249 396 Corus Uk Limited, Port Talbot Steel Works United Kingdom Metals - Metal ore (including sulphide ore) roasting or sintering installations 249 363 Zespól Elektrowni Pątnów-Adamów -Konin S.A., Elektrownia Adamów Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 249 444 Vattenfall Heat Poland S.A., Elektrociepłownia Siekierki Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 246 482 Saras Raffinerie Sarde S.P.A. Italy Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 244 338 Central Térmica De Aboño Spain Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 242 326 EDF - Centre de Production Thermique EDF de Blenod France Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 240 518 Rugeley Power Limited, Rugeley Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 238 365 TETs 'Enel Maritsa iztok 3' Bulgaria Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 238 360 Shell Nederland Raffinaderij BV Netherlands Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 238 392 E.On Benelux NV (Maasvlakte) Netherlands Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 237 289 Południowy Koncern Energetyczny S.A., Elektrownia Łaziska Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 234 377 Essent Energie Productie BV (Amer) Netherlands Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 231 300 PCK Raffinerie GmbH Schwedt Germany Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 229 367 Keadby Generations LTD, Ferrybridge 'C' Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 229 372 Centrali Termoelettriche Di Taranto Italy Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 229 282 PPC S.A. SES Ptolemaidas Greece Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 225 320 TETs Varna Bulgaria Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 225 470 Unidad De Producción Termica As Pontes Spain Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 220 294 Esso Petroleum Co Ltd, Esso Refinery United Kingdom Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 216 423 PPC S.A. SES Amyntaioy Greece Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 216 330 Sucursala Electrocentrale Craiova Ii Romania Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 213 479 Centrale Termoelettrica Di Fiume Santo Italy Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 213 346 Hüttenwerke Krupp Mannesmann GmbH Germany Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 209 388 Arcelormittal España - Planta Siderúrgica De Avilés Y Gijón Spain Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 207 300 Cockenzie Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 204 388 SC CET Govora SA Romania Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 203 494 Shell Oil Products Ltd , Stanlow Manufacturing Complex United Kingdom Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 199 378 E.ON Kraftwerk Staudinger Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 196 270 E.On UK Plc, Kingsnorth Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 195 345 Electrabel Nederland NV (Eemscentrale) Netherlands Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 195 223 Rogesa Roheisengesellschaft Saar mbH Germany Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 193 324 Arcelormittal Belgium - Gent Belgium Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 191 322 Sokolovská uhelná,právní nástupce,a.s.-zpracovatelská část Czech Republic Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 190 278 Chemelot Site Permit BV Netherlands Chemical installations for the production on an industrial scale of basic inorganic chemicals 184 231 SC Arcelormittal Galati SA Romania Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 184 282 TETs 'Maritsa' AD Dimitrovgrad Bulgaria Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 184 456 Kraftwerk Voerde OHG der Evonik Steag GmbH und RWE Power AG Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 183 272 Repsol YPF Refino España. Complejo Industrial De Tarragona Spain Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 182 343 SNET - Centrale Emile Huchet France Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 182 320 Energa Elektrownie Ostrołęka S.A. Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 182 331 Południowy Koncern Energetyczny S.A., Elektrownia Łagisza Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 181 327 E.ON Kraftwerke GmbH Kraftwerk Heyden Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 181 264 Impianto Termoelettrico Di Fusina Italy Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 176 231 Electricity Supply Board (Moneypoint) Ireland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 175 296 Elektrárna Mělník Czech Republic Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 174 274 Elektrárny Tušimice Czech Republic Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 173 288 Central Termica De Andorra Spain Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 172 316 Elektrárna Ledvice Czech Republic Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 171 338 SC Electrocentrale Oradea SA Romania Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 171 415 Zakłady Azotowe 'Puławy' S.A. Poland Chemical installations for the production on an industrial scale of phosphorous-, nitrogen- or potassium-based fertilisers (simple or compound fertilisers) 171 357 Ineos Manufacturing Scotland Ltd United Kingdom Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 170 270 Raffinerie de Port-Jérôme / Gravenchon France Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 169 334 Centrale Vado Ligure Italy Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 169 248 STEAG und RWE Power GKW Bergkamen A oHG Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 169 265 Nuon Power Generation BV (Velsen) Netherlands Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 168 190 RUHR OEL GMBH Werk Scholven Germany Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 167 251 Shell Deutschland Oil GmbH Rheinland Raffinerie, Werk Süd Germany Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 165 306 RWE npower plc, Didcot A Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 164 310 Central Térmica Alcúdia Spain Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 162 246 Chevron Limited, Pembroke Refinary United Kingdom Energy - Installations for gasification and liquefaction 161 290 E.ON Kraftwerke GmbH Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 159 238 Kraftwerk Mehrum GmbH Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 158 241 Centrale Termoelettica Di San Filippo Del Mela Italy Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 157 236 RWE Power AG Kraftwerk Werne Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 153 223 Petroleos Del Norte, Petronor, S.A. (Petronor) Spain Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 152 281 ArcelorMittal Poland S.A., Oddział w Dąbrowie Górniczej Poland Metals - Metal ore (including sulphide ore) roasting or sintering installations 152 215 Elektrárna Chvaletice Czech Republic Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 150 239 ArcelorMittal Poland S.A., Oddział w Krakowie Poland Metals - Metal ore (including sulphide ore) roasting or sintering installations 150 240 Werk 1 MIRO-Mineralölraffinerie Oberrhein GmbH & Co.KG Germany Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 144 267 RWE Power AG Kraftwerk Westfalen Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 144 223 Repsol Petroleo S.A. Spain Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 144 261 Electrabel Centrale Rodenhuize Belgium Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 142 181 ArcelorMittal Bremen GmbH Germany Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 141 273 Nuon Power Generation BV (Hemweg) Netherlands Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 141 172 SNET - Centrale de Provence France Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 138 232 Vattenfall Heat Poland S.A., Elektrociepłownia Żerań Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 138 236 ESSO Raffinaderij Antwerpen Belgium Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 133 256 Ineos Manufacturing France SAS France Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 132 284 Ab 'Orlen Lietuva' Lithuania Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 132 239 ESSO Italiana Raffineria Di Augusta Italy Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 132 254 Rautaruukki Oyj, Raahen Terästehdas Finland Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 131 159 UPT Compostilla Spain Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 129 196 Raffineria Di Sannazzaro De' Burgondi Italy Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 129 221 PX LTD, Teesside Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 128 162 RWE Power AG Kraftwerk Ibbenbüren Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 128 183 BP Rotterdam Refinery Netherlands Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 127 232 BASF Antwerpen Belgium Chemical installations for the production on an industrial scale of basic organic chemicals 125 176 Třinecké Železárny, A.S. - Provoz Třinec Czech Republic Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 125 188 Elektrárna Opatovice Czech Republic Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 125 207 DK6 France Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 124 171 RWE npower plc, Tilbury Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 124 213 Centrale De Bellefontaine France Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 124 297 ArcelorMittal FOS France Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 124 325 Centrale De Jarry-Nord France Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 123 297 INEOS Köln GmbH Germany Chemical installations for the production on an industrial scale of basic organic chemicals 123 162 Saltend Cogeneration Co Ltd, Salt End United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 123 137 Neste Oil Oyj, Porvoon jalostamo Finland Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 122 154 Esso Nederland BV (Raffinaderij Rotterdam) Netherlands Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 121 193 Vattenfall Europe Wärme HKW Reuter-West Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 121 175 EDF - Centre de Production de La Maxe France Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 121 263 Centrale électrique de pointe des carrières France Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 121 300 Centrica SHB Ltd, South Humber Bank Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 120 138 SWB Erzeugung GmbH & Co KG / Heizkraftwerk Hafen Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 120 168 EnBW Kraftwerke AG Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 119 173 Central Térmica Los Barrios Spain Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 118 161 Elektrociepłownia 'Kraków' S.A. Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 117 212 Central De Escucha Spain Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 114 288 E.ON UK PLC, Connah's Quay Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 113 123 Raffineria ISAB Impianti SUD Italy Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 113 200 Conocophillips Ltd, Humber Oil Refinery United Kingdom Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 112 196 Total Raffinage Marketing France Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 112 227 Elektrárna Tisová Czech Republic Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 112 191 Raffinerie de Provence - site de la Mède France Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 112 226 Kraftwerk Bexbach Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 111 166 OMV Refining and Marketing GmbH Austria Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 110 136 Electrabel Centrale Ruien Belgium Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 110 142 Zakłady Azotowe w Tarnowie-Mościcach S.A. Poland Chemical installations for the production on an industrial scale of basic organic chemicals 109 236 UK Coal Mining Ltd, Steadsburn Quarry United Kingdom Minerals - Underground mining and related operations 109 230 YARA Sluiskil BV Netherlands Chemical installations for the production on an industrial scale of phosphorous-, nitrogen- or potassium-based fertilisers (simple or compound fertilisers) 108 165 Infracor GmbH Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 107 153 Enel Produzione SpA – Centrale Sulcis (Grazia Deledda) Italy Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 107 162 Enel Produzione SpA - Centrale di Torrevaldaliga Nord Italy Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 107 126 Raffineria di Milazzo S.C.p.A. Italy Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 107 196 Enipower S.P.A. Stabilimento Di Ferrera Erbognone Italy Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 106 120 Evonik Steag GmbH; HKW Herne Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 106 161 PPC S.A. Ses Kerateas-Layrioy Greece Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 106 132 Attero BV Netherlands Installations for the incineration of non-hazardous waste in the scope of Directive 2000/76/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 4 December 2000 on the incineration of waste 106 113 Refinería Gibraltar Spain Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 106 187 Centre de Production Thermique de Vitry Sur Seine France Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 105 209 YARA Brunsbüttel GmbH Germany Chemical installations for the production on an industrial scale of basic inorganic chemicals 105 207 Enel Produzione S.p.A. Centrale della Spezia “Eugenio Montale” Italy Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 105 150 PPC S.A. SES Megalopolis B’ Greece Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 105 115 Electrabel Nederland NV (Gelderland) Netherlands Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 104 147 Elektrociepłownia EC Nowa Sp. z o.o. Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 104 159 voestalpine Stahl Donawitz GmbH & Co KG Austria Metals - Installations for the production of pig iron or steel (primary or secondary melting) including continuous casting 104 152 EnBW Kraftwerke AG Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 104 147 Dow Benelux BV (Hoek) Netherlands Chemical installations for the production on an industrial scale of basic organic chemicals 104 130 Immingham CHP LLP, Immingham CHP Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 104 113 RWE Power AG; Kraftwerke Region West; HKW Hamborn Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 103 122 Raffinerie des Flandres France Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 103 216 Gorivna instalatsia za proizvodstvo na toplinna energia - parogeneratori tip TP 47 - 2br s edinichna toplinna moshtnost Bulgaria Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 103 231 Naphtachimie France Chemical installations for the production on an industrial scale of basic organic chemicals 102 184 Central Termoelétrica do Pego Portugal Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 102 114 Peterhead Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 102 119 Shell Nederland Chemie BV (Moerdijk) Netherlands Chemical installations for the production on an industrial scale of basic organic chemicals 101 135 RWE npower plc, Didcot B Power Station United Kingdom Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 100 116 TETs 'Republika' Bulgaria Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 100 249 SC Azomures SA Romania Chemical installations for the production on an industrial scale of phosphorous-, nitrogen- or potassium-based fertilisers (simple or compound fertilisers) 100 216 E.ON Kraftwerke GmbH Kraftwerk Buschhaus Germany Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 100 155 Południowy Koncern Energetyczny S.A., Elektrownia Siersza w Trzebini Poland Energy - Thermal power stations and other combustion installations 100 174 Total Uk Ltd, Lindsey Oil Refinery United Kingdom Energy - Mineral oil and gas refineries 100 190 for starters Quote
olpfan1 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Today is the day Harpers head expldoes (written like that because it "does explode" oh I'm so witty Harper will let his Angry Baird out of the cage to launch himself at the Euros Edited February 23, 2012 by olpfan1 Quote
Wild Bill Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Today is the day Harpers head expldoes (written like that because it "does explode" oh I'm so witty Harper will let his Angry Baird out of the cage to launch himself at the Euros Not that it makes any difference but I have been practicing my own "boycott" of purchases for some years now. Mostly against countries like China, who I do not respect for their abuse of the environment and of human rights but also against products from Europe! I added Europe to the list years ago when they banned Canadian seal products. I thought this was very hypocritical, considering how Spain practised bullfighting, as well as the popularity of dog and cock fighting. Even more blatant, they have no problem with seals killed in Norway! They seem to use Canada as a convenient whipping boy to drum up "green" support among their own voters. Politicians are the same everywhere, I guess. That being said, of course European countries have the right to buy from whomever they wish. That's freedom! I just feel that it works both ways. I too have the right to choose which suppliers of products or services I respect. As I've posted before, I am not such a drama queen that I think I'm making a difference but once in a while I've sparked someone else to do the same, or bumped into someone in the supermarket who also reads the labels to see the country of origin. Some memes start to spread slowly but can start to ramp up surprisingly quickly if they begin to catch on. So I find it encouraging that our government is finally talking about taking a stand as well! We always seem to let other countries do whatever they want to us with trade, rarely retaliating. At this moment we are putting the ink to a Free Trade agreement with the EU. Although the CPC are carefully treating this agreement as separate from the oil sands issue I would support tying them together! If the EU puts us on a list, then we also should put them on OUR list of countries banned as customers! Presently we don't sell any oil to the EU anyway but in an energy hungry world that could change in the future. At that time, I feel that politicians in the EU should find out that there are consequences to their actions! Screw the Europeans, I say! And the horses they rode in on! Edited February 23, 2012 by Wild Bill Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
waldo Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 The EU should fix the following list of problems before it targets Canadian Industry: as has been highlighted in other like related threads, the EU proposal does not specifically target Canada/Canadian Industry... rather, it targets 'unconventional' higher emission sources. In that regard, significant EU effect will associate to the proposed figure associated with the unconventional sources of oil/gas associated with fracking methodologies (both internal and in external purchase from Russia), and to a lesser extent, liquid coal (most notably, internally with Poland)... and, of course, Canada is not the world's sole purveyor of tarsands source. Quote
Wild Bill Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 as has been highlighted in other like related threads, the EU proposal does not specifically target Canada/Canadian Industry... rather, it targets 'unconventional' higher emission sources. In that regard, significant EU effect will associate to the proposed figure associated with the unconventional sources of oil/gas associated with fracking methodologies (both internal and in external purchase from Russia), and to a lesser extent, liquid coal (most notably, internally with Poland)... and, of course, Canada is not the world's sole purveyor of tarsands source. Well, that's the OFFICIAL line, Waldo! I won't dispute that. Still, whenever you see posters held by protesters in Europe, you never see "Stop Poland!" on them! It's always "Canada Slaughters Baby Seals!" and now "Say NO! To Dirty Canadian Oil!" I repeat - screw their horses too! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
waldo Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 Well, that's the OFFICIAL line, Waldo! I won't dispute that. considering the EU doesn't currently import any Canadian tarsands product... what's your point? Quote
waldo Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 looks like the Harper Conservative covert actions were semi-successful... today's vote got delayed; actually pushed up from the 'administration' level to a full blown EU ministerial vote to occur later this year... more time for deep-throat, undercover, covert antics, hey? Quote
Wild Bill Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 considering the EU doesn't currently import any Canadian tarsands product... what's your point? As I had said, times change in an energy hungry world. The EU politicians seem to always use Canada to score some cheap points with their "green voters". I support placing a reciprocal ban so that if a decade or two from now if the EU asks for bitumen we refuse! Again, as I had said, I just like politicians to get reminded that there are consequences to their actions. As the old saying goes, "Gas, grass or ass, nobody rides for free!" Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
waldo Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 As I had said, times change in an energy hungry world. The EU politicians seem to always use Canada to score some cheap points with their "green voters". I support placing a reciprocal ban so that if a decade or two from now if the EU asks for bitumen we refuse! what ban? What are talking about... there's no "ban" proposal. Again, the proposal associates to upgrading EU standards for 'Fuel Quality Directives'; in this case, unconventional sources, like oil shale, liquid coal... and tarsands bitumen. All these sources have scientifically identified higher emission attachments than do conventional sources. life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions from fossil fuels: ... the proposed new EU standards encompass greenhouse gas (GHG) default value designations for a grouping of described unconventional sources such as: - oil shale with a proposed GHG value of 131.3 grams CO2 equivalent per megajoule (CO2eq/MJ) - coal-to-liquid with a proposed GHG value of 172 CO2eq/MJ - bitumen derived (tarsands) with a proposed GHG value of 107 CO2eq/MJ as compared to crude oil with a GHG value of 87.5g CO2eq/MJ Quote
olpfan1 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Posted February 23, 2012 They seem to use Canada as a convenient whipping boy to drum up "green" support among their own voters. Politicians are the same everywhere, I guess. Americans do the same to us but with healthcare ..ala we're socialists, Australian politicians did the same to us saying Canada legalized same sex marriage and then said we're going down the slippery slope to legalize Polygamy which we didn't... I guess we're a country that gets picked on, doesn't bother me though, its whatever Quote
olpfan1 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Posted February 23, 2012 Well, that's the OFFICIAL line, Waldo! I won't dispute that. Still, whenever you see posters held by protesters in Europe, you never see "Stop Poland!" on them! It's always "Canada Slaughters Baby Seals!" and now "Say NO! To Dirty Canadian Oil!" I repeat - screw their horses too! I agree with that Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 ... I guess we're a country that gets picked on, doesn't bother me though, its whatever Canada does the same thing with threats of "American style" bogeymen, particularly come election time. Whatever... Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
olpfan1 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Posted February 23, 2012 Canada does the same thing with threats of "American style" bogeymen, particularly come election time. Whatever... Can you blame us though? look at your republican nominees...holy shit Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 Can you blame us though? look at your republican nominees...holy shit Stop whining...there is nothing you can do about the American political process. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
olpfan1 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Posted February 23, 2012 Stop whining...there is nothing you can do about the American political process. I don't like Obama much but I actually fear for my life if any of those republicans win (except Ron Paul, I'd just fear for his life) Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 I don't like Obama much but I actually fear for my life if any of those republicans win (except Ron Paul, I'd just fear for his life) Relax....the leading causes of death in Canada have nothing to do with Republicans or Americans. [b]Total, all causes of death rank… 238,617 100.0%[/b] ================================================================ Malignant neoplasms (cancer) 1 70,558 29.6 Diseases of heart (heart disease) 2 50,722 21.3 Cerebrovascular diseases (stroke) 3 13,870 5.8 Chronic lower respiratory diseases 4 10,923 4.6 Accidents (unintentional injuries) 5 10,234 4.3 Diabetes mellitus (diabetes) 6 7,521 3.2 Alzheimer's disease 7 6,573 2.8 Influenza and pneumonia 8 5,386 2.3 Nephritis, nephrotic (kidney disease) 9 3,846 1.6 Intentional self-harm (suicide) 10 3,705 1.6 American Republicans 9999 1 0.0 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Wild Bill Posted February 23, 2012 Report Posted February 23, 2012 I don't like Obama much but I actually fear for my life if any of those republicans win (except Ron Paul, I'd just fear for his life) Hey, I'm not impressed with Obama's politics but after watching him on TV singing "Sweet Home Chicago" with B B King (who is GOD!) and many other of my blues heroes, I have found a great respect and actual liking for him as a man! Not a bad voice, either! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.