eyeball Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 Why don't you get back to us when all these new prisons are empty because of the low crime rate. I don't think that's going to be a problem. No, you get back to me when the government builds proper facilities for people with mental illness and treats them instead of vindictively and inhumanely punishing them. Somehow I think that's going to be a really big problem for you CPC boosters because I think most of you are just to god-damned mean to give a shit about the mentally ill. You people seem to think and the government seems to act as if mental illness was a life-style choice. It's despicable how the line between criminality and mental illness has been so successfully blurred and exploited by social conservative politicians for partisan gain. It's probably even criminal in the context of our universal human rights. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 (edited) Help me out, is this opinion of yours also based on objective fact? I agree with you that we have a growing population, and that reported crimes appear to be decreasing according to official crime stats. Why is it that whenever the Conservative crime legislation is brought up, the opponents of this bill never bring this fact up? The argument I hear over and over again is... why do we need more prisons if the crime rate is dropping? This is usually followed by some sort of Neo-con remark or other biased insult such as the one above. Regardless of whether the crime rate is dropping or not, our prison system is under increased pressure and overpopulation. No matter what side of the debate you are on, statistics can be manipulated to support both sides of the debate, but the underlying fact that we need more capacity seems to always get dismissed. Do you also agree with what I've cited as being the real underlying cause of prison overcrowding, a lack of hospitals for people with mental illness? As for the CPC and it's more socially conservative supporters being more f^*ked up than anyone else when it comes to facing the issue of mental illness I stand to be corrected. Edited February 10, 2012 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
guyser Posted February 10, 2012 Report Posted February 10, 2012 I agree with you that we have a growing population, and that reported crimes appear to be decreasing according to official crime stats. Why is it that whenever the Conservative crime legislation is brought up, the opponents of this bill never bring this fact up? The argument I hear over and over again is... why do we need more prisons if the crime rate is dropping? This is usually followed by some sort of Neo-con remark or other biased insult such as the one above. Regardless of whether the crime rate is dropping or not, our prison system is under increased pressure and overpopulation. No matter what side of the debate you are on, statistics can be manipulated to support both sides of the debate, but the underlying fact that we need more capacity seems to always get dismissed. Here is my take on it. There is a dichotomy in play here. I am told those who are back the Conservatives want tougher laws, and have griped about the coddling of criminals for eons (based on no facts ) So, now the Cons want to build more prisons, which in all likleihood will mean nicer prisons full of esthetic niceties. But thats what they have been crying about for eons...." Club Fed" . Doesnt make much sense to me. Violent crime, crimes against people and property are all game for jail time. If everyone serving time for possession of mary jane, short of distribution and a cartel member, were released tomorrow, not a damn thing would change in this country. However, the $45,000 we spend (or some number close) each year to house those who pose no problem would be freed up and back in the coffers. Why not look at it that way? Lets clear the back log,m as it stands now Crowns plea a possession , generally , so why dont we clear that slate enetirely off the Crown/Judge/Police blotter and deal with other issues. By the way, the stats posted above in another post are when the pot was the prime charge, not a tack on , for instance B+E plus possesion. If fo now other reason, we need money elsewhere. Quote
Argus Posted February 11, 2012 Report Posted February 11, 2012 We have a population that's growing. This underscores how effective our criminal justice system really is given the rate of crime has not kept pace with the growth in population. We have an aging population. It's that aging which is responsible for any plateauing of crime. And what does that have to do with the price of cigars? Your position seems to be that if people aren't committing crimes as much then we shouldn't bother punishing criminals. Have I got that right? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted February 11, 2012 Report Posted February 11, 2012 2,000 According to Canadian Centre for Substance Abuse Out of about 37,000? That's not so many tons. And how long are they in for and for what 'minor' possession? But it's good you have a number. Now if it doubles in the next couple of years we'll have a basis for thinking there might be a problem - depending on how 'minor possession' is being defined. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted February 11, 2012 Report Posted February 11, 2012 No, you get back to me when the government builds proper facilities for people with mental illness and treats them instead of vindictively and inhumanely punishing them. Last time I checked health care was a provincial responsibility. Most of Canada's provinces are run by steadfastly liberal premiers. Why don't you ask them why they don't take care of the mentally ill? Somehow I think that's going to be a really big problem for you CPC boosters because I think most of you are just to god-damned mean to give a shit about the mentally ill. You're quite wrong. But you often are. In point of fact I think the way the mentally ill are treated in Canada is a scandal. I think the lack of treatment facilities, both for out-patient and in-patient treatment is disgusting. But our liberal provincial governments have obviously decided the mentally ill are not a priority. Ontario's very Liberal government, for example, would rather pay full fledged teachers large salaries to babysit four year olds (a sop to the teacher unions who support him) than look after the mentally ill. It would seems it has decided to pay for its tuition cut for a limited number of college students (to grab the youth vote) by 'redefining' what autism means so fewer people qualify for economic assistance. Niiiiice. But you go on screaming about how Stephen Harper is so heartless. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted February 11, 2012 Report Posted February 11, 2012 I am told those who are back the Conservatives want tougher laws, and have griped about the coddling of criminals for eons (based on no facts ) Maybe you should stop thinking that your lack of knowledge is universal. No facts? I think the basic fact here is Canadians have a gut level belief in the necessity of justice. They don't like criminals getting 2 for 1 or 3 for one deals because they elect to spend their pre-trial time in custody. They don't like that they must be released from prison after serving two thirds of their sentences. They don't like easy parole. And they don't like that a murderer can only be punished once, despite how many people he or she kills. The belief that sentences are slack, for white collar crimes, for sexual crimes, for crimes against property, even for violent crimes, seems nearly universal to those I speak with. Clearly what judges consider to be proper 'justice' is not in agreement with the fundamental beliefs of the Canadian people. Even the liberals I know, the ones who mock tories, still support cracking down on criminals. And they don't care how many of them there are. They care about them being punished properly. Violent crime, crimes against people and property are all game for jail time. If everyone serving time for possession of mary jane, short of distribution and a cartel member, were released tomorrow, not a damn thing would change in this country. However, the $45,000 we spend (or some number close) each year to house those who pose no problem would be freed up and back in the coffers. I realize its fashionable among a certain type to consider grow-ops a victimless crime. However, the government disagrees, as has every government before them, and likely, whoever follows. And that being the case, the government is apparently unhappy with the small number of grow-op operators spending time in jail. only one in 6 grow-op convictions result in jail Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted February 11, 2012 Report Posted February 11, 2012 We have an aging population. It's that aging which is responsible for any plateauing of crime. And what does that have to do with the price of cigars? Your position seems to be that if people aren't committing crimes as much then we shouldn't bother punishing criminals. Have I got that right? No, that's amongst the stupidest interpretations of what I've written that I recall in a while. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
eyeball Posted February 11, 2012 Report Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Last time I checked health care was a provincial responsibility. Most of Canada's provinces are run by steadfastly liberal premiers. Why don't you ask them why they don't take care of the mentally ill? Don't worry I do. You're quite wrong. But you often are. In point of fact I think the way the mentally ill are treated in Canada is a scandal. I think the lack of treatment facilities, both for out-patient and in-patient treatment is disgusting. Good I'm glad to hear that. So you agree the overcrowding of prisons probably has a lot more to do with housing the mentally ill than housing criminals? Doesn't it stand to reason we should properly accommodate the mentally ill before concluding the prisons are overcrowded with criminals? But our liberal provincial governments have obviously decided the mentally ill are not a priority. Ontario's very Liberal government, for example, would rather pay full fledged teachers large salaries to babysit four year olds (a sop to the teacher unions who support him) than look after the mentally ill. You have a cite quoting a politician actually saying "I would rather pay full fledged teachers large salaries to babysit four year olds than look after the mentally ill"? It would seems it has decided to pay for its tuition cut for a limited number of college students (to grab the youth vote) by 'redefining' what autism means so fewer people qualify for economic assistance. Niiiiice. Terrible isn't it. That's why the federal government is responsible for ensuring the provinces provide an adequate and roughly equal level of health care. I'm pretty sure Conservatives in Ontario (Jim Flaherty comes to mind), were cutting funding to psychiatric services and closing mental health institutions long before the Liberals got into the act. I don't disagree that all political parties share some blame for the dismal state of affairs for mental health/illness in Canada. But you go on screaming about how Stephen Harper is so heartless. He seems to cater to people who would happily throw so-called criminals suffering from schizophrenia into a cell with rapists and murderers if some of the comments I've heard in threads on the gun registry are anything to go by, maybe that's what threw me. If there is any reason to conclude right-wingers have the farthest to go when it comes to adjusting their attitudes towards mental illness it's the way they have confused and deliberately conflated mental illness with criminality in their zeal to resist the gun registry. Conservatives to their deep discredit ignore, and I think, deliberately cater to this confusion during their election campaigns because it's simply so convenient they can't help themselves - the other parties who cave in the face of being seen as soft on crime prevent anyone from being smarter on it. Their cowardice serves Canadians no better. And so here we are, poised to embark on an unnecessary national and provincial prison spending boondoggle primed with an attitude towards criminal justice that is becoming as mideaval as the attitudes many reserve for mental illness. Now that's niiiiice. It's also a fucking disaster. Edited February 11, 2012 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
dre Posted February 11, 2012 Report Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Cracking down on small time soft drug criminals is one of the stupidest things the Canadian government has ever done. But I admit I kinda like it! Elections are important! Canadians are getting exactly what they deserve... the same policies that the US just gave up on because they are utterly uneffective and unaffordable. Congratulations Canatards. You just gave a majority government to folks that think potheads are worse than pedophiles. Edited February 11, 2012 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
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