Northern Gateway a must?

[msj]

Why should they? Enbridge has many business activities that do not depend on NG. The native groups not entitled to share in the revenue from those activities. It would be unfair to existing shareholders and possibly breach securities laws.

They can negotiate whatever deal works from them.

It's the FN land and they, too, will have to negotiate when it comes down to the nitty gritty.

The province of BC, however, should either make sure that Enbridge itself is on the hook should the worst happen, or have some kind of escrow/trust fund set up so that taxpayers' risk for paying for the clean up is mitigated (while also ensuring proper insurance is employed).

If the lawyers and accountants can come up with derivatives to protect the Wall Street/Bay Street types then they can come up with something that protects the taxpaying public too.

---------------------

It's all going to come down to negotiation and the more I think about it the more I think BC's interest will be better served by electing the NDP with a small majority (say 1 or 2 seats).

Of course, they are likely to blow it due to inexperience, but I just don't trust the BC Liberals (if Gordo was still premier I would trust them but then they would be at 8% in the polls rather than 20%).

The BC Conservatives are just a bunch of social conservatives who would likely tow the Harper line on this - environment? what environment? it was put here for man to exploit endlessly.....

Yeah, don't want them anywhere near the controls.

But I can't stand the NDP.

I know the guy running for them in my riding personally and like him personally but can't stand him politically, but who knows there always could be a first time....

---------------------

I really think Norman Spector has a point that this thing could bite the Federal CPC in the ass once people start paying attention to it around an election.

I also think it could send Provincial/Federal relations, which have been pretty good during the past 10 years, to new lows.

While I think Clark has come out way to crusty on this issue, hopefully her replacement will do a better job of smoothing over the feathers of all concerned so that some kind of negotiation happens to see if we can get this pipeline to work.

I still prefer selling oil to the US rather than to China, but it would be nice to have real access to the world market (at better prices).

[WWWTT]

The relative success of ethanol is because of the unique nature of Brazil (tropical climate, efficient sugar production and large amounts of land). It is not a general model that can be adopted everywhere.

Yes I agree with you!

However I had never suggested that we adopt an ethanol production solution.

What I am suggesting is we adopt an energy infrastructure development plan that would benefit all or at least many parts of Canada.

Doing so would increase productivity and make Canada very attractive to foreign investment and strengthen manufacturing among other sectors in our countries economy from east to west!

I am not saying that it would be easy and fast to do or cheap.But it is something that is long overdue!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

I only mentioned it to show that as one of your examples it had a lot of baggage that could make it a non-viable one.

Ok I understand where you are coming from.

However this increase in the cost of food can be contributed to many different influences.

Possible the biggest one being the cost of fuel increase(ironic) and the markets capitalizing on speculation.

As well oil has led to much war around the world too and is not without blood on its hands!

WWWTT

[Wild Bill]

Yes I agree with you!

However I had never suggested that we adopt an ethanol production solution.

What I am suggesting is we adopt an energy infrastructure development plan that would benefit all or at least many parts of Canada.

Doing so would increase productivity and make Canada very attractive to foreign investment and strengthen manufacturing among other sectors in our countries economy from east to west!

I am not saying that it would be easy and fast to do or cheap.But it is something that is long overdue!

WWWTT

Well duh! Who doesn't want such a thing? We all have wishes! I'd like a pony, myself.

What we need is ideas that will work! We have more than enough wishes and dreams.

More techies! Get the artsies and poli-sci majors the hell out of the way! They have the wrong skill sets to be useful for such things.

[TimG]

Doing so would increase productivity and make Canada very attractive to foreign investment and strengthen manufacturing among other sectors in our countries economy from east to west!

Shipping Alberta oil to Ontario would cost more money which make Canadian industry LESS efficient because it would have to pay for the higher costs.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand? It makes no difference to Canada if Ontario buys a barrel of Saudi Crude or a barrel Alberta Crude at the world price. There is no economic advantage to be gained.

If you want Canada to gain an advantage from the oil resources then you should be supporting the building of pipelines to the coast so the oil does not have to be sold at a discount.

Edited August 6, 2012 by TimG

[blueblood]

Shipping Alberta oil to Ontario would cost more money which make Canadian industry LESS efficient because it would have to pay for the higher costs.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand? It makes no difference to Canada if Ontario buys a barrel of Saudi Crude or a barrel Alberta Crude at the world price. There is no economic advantage to be gained.

If you want Canada to gain an advantage from the oil resources then you should be supporting the building of pipelines to the coast so the oil does not have to be sold at a discount.

It looks like the games being played by bc might end up biting them in the rear. The premier of NWT says why not go north?

I don't mind this because it would help establish credibility in the north

[WWWTT]

Well duh! Who doesn't want such a thing? We all have wishes! I'd like a pony, myself.

What we need is ideas that will work! We have more than enough wishes and dreams.

More techies! Get the artsies and poli-sci majors the hell out of the way! They have the wrong skill sets to be useful for such things.

Hey buddy,a pipeline connecting Canada is no different than a railway.

The need for such connections was seen 150 years ago and are still needed now

And why do you need a pony?What does a pony have to do with building a pipeline or refinery?

WWWTT

[blueblood]

Hey buddy,a pipeline connecting Canada is no different than a railway.

The need for such connections was seen 150 years ago and are still needed now

And why do you need a pony?What does a pony have to do with building a pipeline or refinery?

WWWTT

It wouldn't work because there isn't enough demand in eastern canada to justify it. There is demand overseas.

Eastern canada isn't getting discounted oil out of all this, just like western canada isn't getting cheap cars. If eastern canada thinks building a pipeline east is going to get them cheap gas, they're dreaming. That pipeline goes north before it goes east.

[WWWTT]

Shipping Alberta oil to Ontario would cost more money which make Canadian industry LESS efficient because it would have to pay for the higher costs.

Why is it so difficult for you to understand? It makes no difference to Canada if Ontario buys a barrel of Saudi Crude or a barrel Alberta Crude at the world price. There is no economic advantage to be gained.

If you want Canada to gain an advantage from the oil resources then you should be supporting the building of pipelines to the coast so the oil does not have to be sold at a discount.

Man that's a freekin huge load your tryin to shovel there.

It makes a huge difference!

First off we will have to invest into our infrastructure to bring the oil to the east and remove the subsidies to the oil companies to help pay for this.

There is no need to charge more for the oil that would cause significant hindrance.

The big advantage here would be that the Canadian infrastructure will be able to provide a wide selection of fuels,keeping the money within Canada.

I guess you just do not understand the strategic advantage of keeping money within our borders?Or you do not see the long term advantage in investing in our infrastructure?

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

It wouldn't work because there isn't enough demand in eastern canada to justify it. There is demand overseas.

Eastern canada isn't getting discounted oil out of all this, just like western canada isn't getting cheap cars. If eastern canada thinks building a pipeline east is going to get them cheap gas, they're dreaming. That pipeline goes north before it goes east.

I think you forgot that eastern Canada is also connected to the eastern US?The biggest oil consuming region in the world.

WWWTT

[Wild Bill]

Hey buddy,a pipeline connecting Canada is no different than a railway.

The need for such connections was seen 150 years ago and are still needed now

And why do you need a pony?What does a pony have to do with building a pipeline or refinery?

WWWTT

You must be built low. Things seem to go right over you!

The pony was a metaphor. You made a post with nothing but wants - wishes and dreams. What's more, they were "mom and apple pie" wishes, that everyone has.

My point is that anyone with hair in their ears can express wishes, like wanting a pony. It takes more skull sweat to come up with practical ideas that might work to ACHIEVE such results!

You remind me of Dilbert in the newspaper comic strip. His bosses, who know nothing about anything practical or technical, are always coming up with projects to give to their engineers. The projects are always impractical wishes and impossible to deliver. The managers of course blame the failure on their engineers!

[blueblood]

I think you forgot that eastern Canada is also connected to the eastern US?The biggest oil consuming region in the world.

WWWTT

And that's why we currently have pipelines going straight south, just not the big daddy pipeline yet.

[WWWTT]

You must be built low. Things seem to go right over you!

The pony was a metaphor. You made a post with nothing but wants - wishes and dreams. What's more, they were "mom and apple pie" wishes, that everyone has.

My point is that anyone with hair in their ears can express wishes, like wanting a pony. It takes more skull sweat to come up with practical ideas that might work to ACHIEVE such results!

You remind me of Dilbert in the newspaper comic strip. His bosses, who know nothing about anything practical or technical, are always coming up with projects to give to their engineers. The projects are always impractical wishes and impossible to deliver. The managers of course blame the failure on their engineers!

Then why do you not come out and say you disagree with me?

I used the example of Brazil where such projects have yielded huge benefit.

The best you can provide is "I want a pony","I am built low","Dilbert comic strip" and "mom and apple pie wishes".

At some point of time you're going to have to come up with something a little stronger than just your opinion.Or maybe you will not be able to?

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

It wouldn't work because there isn't enough demand in eastern canada to justify it. There is demand overseas.

Build it and they will come.

WWWTT

[blueblood]

Build it and they will come.

WWWTT

So you propose to jack up the corporate tax rate (end the subsidies) to pay some company that you guys screwed over by taxing them to move a product from the guys who just got screwed and some magical bitumen refinery is going to magically appear in eastern canada. Why not just keep doing what we are doing and make a killing selling the oil to china and further down the road the usa.

What's next a bullet train all through canada?

There's a reason a pipeline doesn't go from alberta to ontario, its too far over difficult terrain for 20 million people when there is already infrastructure in place to provide eastern canada and the usa's energy needs.

20 million people can't pay for the size of project you want. 300 million can.

[Wilber]

Why is it so difficult for you to understand? It makes no difference to Canada if Ontario buys a barrel of Saudi Crude or a barrel Alberta Crude at the world price. There is no economic advantage to be gained.

One means a hundred bucks leaves the country and the other means a hundred bucks remains in it. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

[TimG]

First off we will have to invest into our infrastructure to bring the oil to the east and remove the subsidies to the oil companies to help pay for this.

Oil companies are NOT subsidized so the savings are zippo.

I guess you just do not understand the strategic advantage of keeping money within our borders?Or you do not see the long term advantage in investing in our infrastructure?

You repeat that nonsense as if repetition will make it less nonsensical. Ontario benefits by buying the cheapest oil. Alberta benefits by selling oil to the highest bidder. If Alberta sells the oil to Chinese for more than Ontario pays to buy it from the Saudis then the country wins. In the most likely scenario the price is basically the same so there is no advantage to be gained.

[Wild Bill]

Then why do you not come out and say you disagree with me?

I used the example of Brazil where such projects have yielded huge benefit.

The best you can provide is "I want a pony","I am built low","Dilbert comic strip" and "mom and apple pie wishes".

At some point of time you're going to have to come up with something a little stronger than just your opinion.Or maybe you will not be able to?

WWWTT

Yep. I never post actual ideas for solutions. That must be it.

Nearly 6000 posts so far and that's all I've ever done.

Right!

[blueblood]

One means a hundred bucks leaves the country and the other means a hundred bucks remains in it. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Firstly

So you want other parts of the world poor so they can't afford our products. Also those oil countries are very large importers of grain, something we export a lot of.

Secondly

The trade off from having a bit of oil imported as to specializing in oil export is well worth it. I would rather the pipeline go to a billion customers than 20 million, I think they have more money than eastern canada.

[TimG]

One means a hundred bucks leaves the country and the other means a hundred bucks remains in it. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Scenario 1# 100 dollars goes from Ontario to Alberta

Scenario #2 100 dollars goes from the Chinese to Alberta and 100 dollars goes from Ontario to the Saudis.

The end result is EXACTLY the same in both scenarios

(i.e. Alberta gets 100 dollars, Ontario spends 100 dollars).

There is no economic benefit to be gained by selling the oil directly to Ontario.

Edited August 6, 2012 by TimG

[waldo]

Oil companies are NOT subsidized so the savings are zippo.

don't eat that Elmer... that there's BS! BigOil receives a huuugge disproportionate percentage of government subsidy monies - no matter how hard you try to deny it... no matter how many times you trot out your 'no subsidy nonsense'.

This entire tax subsidy issue is made complicated because many of the enviro-yahoos don't understand accounting principals and think that any deduction is automatically a 'subsidy'.

speak to the WTO hand

, hey?

[WWWTT]

Why not just keep doing what we are doing and make a killing selling the oil to china and further down the road the usa.

Keep doing what we are doing?

I thought that this thread was about building a pipeline?

Anyways in case you have not noticed we are losing jobs to China and the US.My proposal will help keep some of those jobs right here at home.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Yep. I never post actual ideas for solutions.

You said it,not me.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Firstly

So you want other parts of the world poor so they can't afford our products. Also those oil countries are very large importers of grain, something we export a lot of.

Secondly

The trade off from having a bit of oil imported as to specializing in oil export is well worth it. I would rather the pipeline go to a billion customers than 20 million, I think they have more money than eastern canada.

First off,when you have all the trump cards in your hand,you use them to your advantage!

Secondly,I never knew there was 1 billion ppl in BC?

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Scenario 1# 100 dollars goes from Ontario to Alberta

Scenario #2 100 dollars goes from the Chinese to Alberta and 100 dollars goes from Ontario to the Saudis.

The end result is EXACTLY the same in both scenarios

(i.e. Alberta gets 100 dollars, Ontario spends 100 dollars).

There is no economic benefit to be gained by selling the oil directly to Ontario.

Why should Canada help a competitor such as China or Saudi Arabia?

Let the Chinese deal with the Saudis and lets refine and use our products here.

Keep in mind that the raw material and product that we have left over can still be exported for more profit.

What I am suggesting is that our raw materials and natural resources should be used to help Canadians first,rest of the world second.

WWWTT