Hamas to give up violence?

[Post To The Left]

According to American officials the Islamic organization of Hamas was created by Israel as a way to weaken the secular PLO. So one has to wonder if Israeli officials are looking in alarm as Hamas is to join the PLO and Hamas' "political bureau Khaled Meshal stated ... Hamas will henceforth focus on a popular struggle in the form of mass demonstrations and the like" and give up the armed struggle.

Of course this isn't sitting well with the rank and file in Gaza and there appears to be purge of "problem" Hamas officials:

Of late, a few less-senior figures in Hamas ... have undergone peculiar accidents. For example, Ahmed al-Mamluk was killed two weeks ago, according to Hamas, "while carrying out a jihad mission." His family says he was supposed to be meeting with a senior Hamas official to discuss a number of corruption cases. A similar "accident" befell Ali Nayef al-Haj, who was killed in an "internal explosion" in November; Mohammed Zaki al-Hams, who died in a road accident in early November; Mohammed al-Mahamoum, who died last June from electrocution in a Hamas outpost; and Ashraf Faraj Abu Hana, who drowned in a swimming pool last March. Hamas says this is a chance series of accidents, but the families have radically different versions.

http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/is-israel-witnessing-the-rise-of-a-kinder-gentler-hamas-1.404543

The "Is Israel witnessing the rise of a kinder, gentler Hamas?" article also talked about a common theme amongst Islamic analysts: the Arab Spring is showing the Arab and Islamic world that violence isn't the only option to overthrow their dictatorial regimes whether they are western backed dictators or grass roots groups who have seized power and refuse to give it up like with Hamas or Iran. Mass demonstrations and nonviolent means can overthrow regimes that have been propped up for decades.

[jbg]

The "Is Israel witnessing the rise of a kinder, gentler Hamas?" article also talked about a common theme amongst Islamic analysts: the Arab Spring is showing the Arab and Islamic world that violence isn't the only option to overthrow their dictatorial regimes whether they are western backed dictators or grass roots groups who have seized power and refuse to give it up like with Hamas or Iran. Mass demonstrations and nonviolent means can overthrow regimes that have been propped up for decades.

Yes, they're surely beating their swords into plowshares ans spears into pruning hooks. Let's all join Hamas on the beach of the Mediterranean and sing Kumbaya together.

[monty16]

Any peace overtures on the part of Hamas will be met with slaughter at the hands of the Israelis. Israel can never allow an atmosphere of peace in which they could eventually be forced to agree with the UN's 67 borders mandate. Israel has no good intention whatsoever.

[jbg]

Any peace overtures on the part of Hamas will be met with slaughter at the hands of the Israelis. Israel can never allow an atmosphere of peace in which they could eventually be forced to agree with the UN's 67 borders mandate. Israel has no good intention whatsoever.

What efforts were made by Arab powers such as Egypt or Saudi Arabia to free what are now the Disputed Territories between June 1948 and May 1967? Has Syria given the returned parts of the Golan to the Palestinians? The Egyptians given back Sinai? For that matter, the Russians the Kurile Islands or Kalinigrad?

[Guest American Woman]

So Much for Hamas’s Change of Heart

The group is itself making it clear its predilection for violence is not about to change. A spokesman for Hamas dismissed the reports about an order to cease attacks on Israel as so absurd it didn’t even merit a response.

I don't expect much will change as things currently stand.

[bud]

i wonder when likud will get around to changing their platform to 'never allow a palestinian state'.

http://www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm

Self-Rule

The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river.

The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state.

not to mention their other platforms that go fully against international law. like east jerusalem and the illegal settlements.

[sharkman]

So Much for Hamas’s Change of Heart

The group is itself making it clear its predilection for violence is not about to change. A spokesman for Hamas dismissed the reports about an order to cease attacks on Israel as so absurd it didn’t even merit a response.

I don't expect much will change as things currently stand.

No response from Mr. Post to the left or monty1, eh?

[Wild Bill]

Like the old proverb:

"Why did you sting me? Now we'll both drown!"

"I couldn't help it! I AM a scorpion, after all!"

[monty16]

What efforts were made by Arab powers such as Egypt or Saudi Arabia to free what are now the Disputed Territories between June 1948 and May 1967? Has Syria given the returned parts of the Golan to the Palestinians? The Egyptians given back Sinai? For that matter, the Russians the Kurile Islands or Kalinigrad?

Don't try to lead me into a different discussion, it won't work. Israel/Arab relations is the bone of contention that needs to be addressed. And fwiw, what I say is exactly what is going to happen but of course Israel will blame it on Hamas. Israel apologists will believe it.

Read this: http://www.juancole.com/2011/12/2011-end-of-us-hyperpower-its-war-with-islamdom.html

The US will have to manufacture a pretense for war but it's not going to be as easy as it always has been. That is because China/Russia are not going to give the US the UN resolution to go ahead. This means that the US is going to have to make Israel pull in it's horns in order to get joint cooperation on Iran. That is, pressure against Iran in a non-violent way along with Russia/China support. Israel is not threatened but neither is Iran at the moment but it's still in Russia/China's best interest that Iran doesn't go nuclear. Here's where Israel will get thrown to the dogs if it doesn't begin to live up to it's part of the shared state or two state bargain. The US has always used Israel and will abuse Israel readily when it becomes in the US's interests. Israel will shift from being friends ot the US because of US interests, to being a chain around the neck of the US.

It won't need Ron Paul as president. He's nothing more than a senile old fool who knows how to play the game and foresees what is coming. As the balance of power in the ME shifts more to multilateral power agreements, so will Israel by necessary become less influencial. This is the best hope for future peace in Israel/Palestine. A few years perhaps? Making Israel behave with it's neighbours is a very cheap price for the US to pay.

Edited December 31, 2011 by monty1

[monty16]

So Much for Hamas’s Change of Heart

The group is itself making it clear its predilection for violence is not about to change. A spokesman for Hamas dismissed the reports about an order to cease attacks on Israel as so absurd it didn’t even merit a response.

I don't expect much will change as things currently stand.

For once this ditzy woman is right, nothing will change. What's of mior importance is who gets blamed for nothing changing. We know her opinion will be popular in the US but we also know that the rest of the world has known for years how the game has been played. Israel causes trouble and the Palestinians respond. But why argue over that again and never reach any kind of agreement? I've laid out above what will happen and what needs to happen.

[NWRS]

For once this ditzy woman is right, nothing will change. What's of mior importance is who gets blamed for nothing changing. We know her opinion will be popular in the US but we also know that the rest of the world has known for years how the game has been played. Israel causes trouble and the Palestinians respond. But why argue over that again and never reach any kind of agreement? I've laid out above what will happen and what needs to happen.

This is the second time i have seen you use the 'ditzy woman' insult, now, call me crazy, wouldn't that be a personal insult and a sexist one to boot?

You may want to apologize.

[Guest American Woman]

This is the second time i have seen you use the 'ditzy woman' insult, now, call me crazy, wouldn't that be a personal insult and a sexist one to boot?

You may want to apologize.

Thanks for the concern, NWRS. It's appreciated.

[dre]

I find it unlikely that people living under a brutal occupation, watching their resources plundered and their land settled bit by bit are ever going to renounce violence.

[Post To The Left]

I find it unlikely that people living under a brutal occupation, watching their resources plundered and their land settled bit by bit are ever going to renounce violence.

But the Arab people have seen that violence doesn't work but that mass demonstrations/ nonviolent protests do.

In November Palestinians boarded a bus used by settlers, in a non-violent protest in an attempt to draw attention to the apartheid policies of Israel in the occupied territories.

Israel's biggest fear is that the Palestinian people are going to march in mass, unarmed, without throwing stones against the occupier. Then they will be in the same PR disaster situation as the British in India when Gandhi was able to mobilize nonviolent protests against the apartheid/colonial government.

[sharkman]

That will never happen. Their racist bigotry and hatred of Israel will never let them simply be peaceful protestors.

Israel's biggest fear, since you seem so curious about it, is a nuclear armed Iran. And please don't use Gandhi's name in vain.

[Post To The Left]

That will never happen. Their racist bigotry and hatred of Israel will never let them simply be peaceful protestors.

I agree the racist bigotry and hatred of Israel against the Palestinian people is an obstacle but I wouldn't generalize a whole country some in Israel truly want peace. But the powerful establishment of Israel controlled by the small but king maker extremist religious parties control the agenda. But can you blame them? After all Israeli school teach children to hate and distrust the Palestinians from a very young age.

'The Arab with a camel, in an Ali Baba dress. They describe them as vile and deviant and criminal, people who don't pay taxes, people who live off the state, people who don't want to develop,' she says. 'The only representation is as refugees, primitive farmers and terrorists. You never see a Palestinian child or doctor or teacher or engineer or modern farmer

...In 'hundreds and hundreds' of books, she claims she did not find one photograph that depicted an Arab as a 'normal person' ... She describes what she found as racism– but, more than that, a racism that prepares young Israelis for their compulsory military service.

--The Guardian

Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html

Israel's biggest fear, since you seem so curious about it, is a nuclear armed Iran.

Thanks for the helpful suggestion but I doubt Iran wants to destroy Israel's third most holy site and risk total and utter destruction when Israel rains its hundred odd nuclear weapons down on Iranian cities.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Post To The Left

[jbg]

But the Arab people have seen that violence doesn't work but that mass demonstrations/ nonviolent protests do.

The "Arab Spring" horrors were related to "governments" firing en masse on their own people. The problem with the Israelis is different. This is asymmetrical warfare. It is easy to confuse the two but essential to understand the distinction.

In November Palestinians boarded a bus used by settlers, in a non-violent protest in an attempt to draw attention to the apartheid policies of Israel in the occupied territories.

Why weren't these territories called "occupied" when Egypt and Jordan administered Gaza and the West Bank, respectively?

Israel's biggest fear is that the Palestinian people are going to march in mass, unarmed, without throwing stones against the occupier. Then they will be in the same PR disaster situation as the British in India when Gandhi was able to mobilize nonviolent protests against the apartheid/colonial government.

That will never happen. Their racist bigotry and hatred of Israel will never let them simply be peaceful protestors.

Israel's biggest fear, since you seem so curious about it, is a nuclear armed Iran. And please don't use Gandhi's name in vain.

The problem is that some in Israel care about garnering approval from the chattering classes in the West. Very few Arabs could care less. As far as Gandhi, he didn't win so much as the British threw in the towel. They were broke after World War II, and more to the point, the troops that Britain used to keep order in India were likely needed elsewhere during the war effort. And don't forget WW I as well. That previously had weakened Britain's grip.

Churchill, as PM, had no intention of letting go of India. The incoming Labour government did. Probably, though, neither had a choice in the matter. Britain was broke and remained broke until well into the 1980's.

As far as Gandhi, he is romanticized. His fantasy of an independent India depended upon massive subsidies from their former colonial occupiers. Most of that money, in the form of U.N. aid, was wasted. It is only now that India is coming into its own, and even then with a lot of help, and remaining large swatches of deep poverty.

But I digress. Hamas is not headed by Gandhi or anyone close.

Edited January 1, 2012 by jbg

[jbg]

I agree the racist bigotry and hatred of Israel against the Palestinian people is an obstacle but I wouldn't generalize a whole country some in Israel truly want peace. But the powerful establishment of Israel controlled by the small but king maker extremist religious parties control the agenda. But can you blame them? After all Israeli school teach children to hate and distrust the Palestinians from a very young age.

I think you gravely misapprehend the problem. Israel is a country little more than three (3) times the size of PEI (link to size of PEI) & (two links to size of Israel [two links different colors])

At its narrowest, pre-1967 Israel is 9 miles wide, about double PEI's narrowest width of 4 miles. And PEI is surrounded by water, with little threat of invasion by angry residents of NB or NS.

Thus Israel has a serious existential problem. The Arabs will say that if Israel retreats to pre-1967 boundaries they will grant recognition. But not as a Jewish state. They insist on a "right of return" of descendents of prior residents. That would quickly erase Israel's Jewish character.

What would be an acceptable way to return most of the territory seized during the 1967 War would be full recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, demilitarization of Gaza and West Bank, full relations, and free trade and travel over borders. In short, what prevails between the U.S. and Canada.

I don't think that is what Hamas has in mind.

.

Thanks for the helpful suggestion but I doubt Iran wants to destroy Israel's third most holy site and risk total and utter destruction when Israel rains its hundred odd nuclear weapons down on Iranian cities.

I think you mean Islam's holy site. In Israel it's their holiest site and for Islam, arguably (though I think the holiness is phony) the third-holiest site after Mecca and Medina.

Type more carefully.

[sharkman]

I agree the racist bigotry and hatred of Israel against the Palestinian people is ...

So your only response is to intentionally mis-interpret what's been clearly posted, and then refute the point that was never made? Hopefully this isn't your go-to ploy.

[Post To The Left]

As far as Gandhi, he didn't win so much as the British threw in the towel. They were broke after World War II, and more to the point, the troops that Britain used to keep order in India were likely needed elsewhere during the war effort. And don't forget WW I as well. That previously had weakened Britain's grip.

Churchill, as PM, had no intention of letting go of India. The incoming Labour government did. Probably, though, neither had a choice in the matter. Britain was broke and remained broke until well into the 1980's.

As far as Gandhi, he is romanticized. His fantasy of an independent India depended upon massive subsidies from their former colonial occupiers. Most of that money, in the form of U.N. aid, was wasted. It is only now that India is coming into its own, and even then with a lot of help, and remaining large swatches of deep poverty.

But I digress. Hamas is not headed by Gandhi or anyone close.

True it wasn't just Gandhi that enabled the India to declare statehood. Britain was broke and exhausted from two world wars compared with Israel, backed on American funding, that is VASTLY militarily superior to all of the surrounding Arab countries combined but what if the same circumstances happened in the occupied territories as India (regardless of their past, now the West Bank and Gaza are now controlled by Israel as a form of apartheid).

There are numerous threads on this board speaking of an economic collapse not to mention a Presidential nominee, Ron Paul, who wants to cut Israel's funding, that it needs to survive. Israel fears non-violent protest against the apartheid government of the occupied territories. If Hamas gives up its violent struggle joins the PLO and focuses on the nonviolent struggle against the occupiers who are either broke, or cut off from American funding it could be the push for parties like Likud to reverse their opposition, and stated goal to never allow, the creation of a Palestinian State.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Post To The Left

[DogOnPorch]

I think you mean Islam's holy site. In Israel it's their holiest site and for Islam, arguably (though I think the holiness is phony) the third-holiest site after Mecca and Medina.

Type more carefully.

Jerusalem's Temple Mount was declared 'the furthest mosque' by Omar...very much a human and not a god...after taking the city by force. As the church lady says...

How convenient!

[bud]

That will never happen. Their racist bigotry and hatred of Israel will never let them simply be peaceful protestors.

some of the leading protesters of israel's occupation of palestinians are jews. majority of supporters of justice for palestinians recognize the difference between a jew and a zionist/zionism.

you need to be honest and realistic about the situation. majority of palestinians have wanted a non-violent approach to protesting against israel. even hamas has been calling for ceasefires. in which a few were broken by israel, including the one that triggered the start of the gaza war. your characterization of palestinians is dishonest.

this is what is happening:

2012 "will be the start of an unprecedented diplomatic campaign on the part of the Palestinian leadership, and it will be a year of pressure on Israel that will put it under a real international siege," said Fatah Central Committee member Nabil Sha'ath, according to an Israeli Foreign Ministry document. "The campaign will be similar to the one waged against apartheid in South Africa."

According to information that has reached Israel, the Palestinians are considering several steps as part of their campaign:

• Asking the UN Security Council in February to pass a resolution that would condemn settlement construction and impose international sanctions on Israel. If a resolution were brought to a vote, all Security Council members other than the United States would be expected to vote in favor.
  
• Urging the International Criminal Court in The Hague to try Israel for war crimes related to Operation Cast Lead. If that fails, Palestinian officials are likely to encourage Palestinian citizens to file lawsuits against Israel in Western courts.
  
• Pushing for the implementation the articles of the Fourth Geneva Convention that ban the construction of communities and transfer of populations in occupied territory. The Palestinians have been trying for some time now to persuade the Swiss government to convene the signatories on the document for a special debate on the subject of applying the Geneva Convention in the West Bank.
  
• Asking the UN General Assembly or the UN Human Rights Council to send an international fact-finding committee to look into the settlement issue.
  
• Renewing efforts in the UN Security Council to secure full-membership status for Palestine, or asking the UN General Assembly for status as a nonmember state. A similar move was suspended last October after UNESCO, the United Nations' cultural agency, accepted Palestine as a member, in response to which Israel froze Palestinian tax revenues.
  
• Organizing mass rallies against Israel in the West Bank, as part of a non-violent popular uprising. In reconciliation talks between Hamas and Fatah, the head of the Hamas political bureau, Khaled Meshal, said the two movements would focus their activities on a popular uprising in an effort to draw international attention to the Israeli occupation.
  

The diplomatic campaign is expected to begin January 26, which marks the end of the three-month period the Quartet alloted to Israel and the Palestinian Authority for resuming talks and presenting substantive proposals on borders and security arrangements.

The Palestinians agreed not to take any unilateral steps in international forums before that date.

israel's actions are unsustainable and change is on its way.

[sharkman]

Let me state the obvious. There will never be peace in the ME as long as Israel's existance is threatened. And that threat is caused by racism which is indoctrinated in the children of many ME nations.

As for the thread topic, Hamas has not given up violence and never will.

[bud]

the truth is that the occupation and the growing settlements which annex palestinian land are an indication that israel is not interested in a just peace but to only continue with the status quo. everyone knows that increasing illegal settlements has nothing to do with security.

[sharkman]

Occupation? You mean the land that Israel won fair and square when she was ganged up on by several neighbors who wanted to wipe her off the map? Tell me this if you're so concerned about it. How much land has Israel given back already.