Religious Extremism

[GostHacked]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45794260/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/#.Tvnqylai18E

Something from the other side of the fence.

Naama Margolese is a pale, blue-eyed, ponytailed, bespectacled second-grader who is afraid of walking to her religious Jewish girls school for fear of ultra-Orthodox extremists who have spat on her and called her a whore for dressing "immodestly."

Her plight has drawn new attention to the simmering issue of religious coercion in Israel, and the increasing brazenness of extremists in the insular ultra-Orthodox Jewish community.

I guess it's a matter of how Jewish you are? Netanyahu has denounced this, but can or will anything be done about it?

Beit Shemesh's growing ultra-Orthodox population has erected street signs calling for the separation of sexes on the sidewalks, dispatched "modesty patrols" to enforce a chaste female appearance and hurled stones at offenders and outsiders. Walls of the neighborhood are plastered with signs exhorting women to dress modestly in closed-necked, long-sleeved blouses and long skirts.

So while some of our Jewish members on this forum denounce extremism from other religions (mainly Islam), they don't think about the extremism that persists within Israel itself and within the Jewish religion.

"It is clear that Israeli society is faced with a challenge that I am not sure it can handle," said Menachem Friedman, a professor emeritus of Bar Ilan University and expert on the ultra-Orthodox, "a challenge that is no less and no more than an existential challenge."

Most of Israel's secular majority, in cities like Tel Aviv and Haifa, is not directly affected, but in a few places like Beit Shemesh — a city of 100,000 people that include ultra-Orthodox, modern Orthodox and secular Jews — tensions have erupted into the open.

The existential threat is from inside as well as outside.

[Guest Peeves]

The ultra orthodox of Israel are certainly religious loonies and nearly as bad as fundamentalist Muslims in their behavior. (Israeli nuts usually don't blow up one another.)

The radicals in Israel now are going through a Rosa Parks moment, "October 24, 2005)"

Apparently there's an uproar with women over the meshuge ultra orthodox orthodox ultra that told a woman to go to the back of the bus. She didn't and her 'case' hit the fan. Good for her.

Glad you posted this it needed to be said.

[Guest Peeves]

The ultra orthodox of Israel are certainly religious loonies and nearly as bad as fundamentalist Muslims in their behavior. (Israeli nuts usually don't blow up one another.)

The radicals in Israel now are going through a Rosa Parks moment, "October 24, 2005)"

Apparently there's an uproar with women over the meshuge ultra orthodox orthodox ultra that told a woman to go to the back of the bus. She didn't and her 'case' hit the fan. Good for her.

Glad you posted this it needed to be said.

Added.

they don't think about the extremism that persists within Israel itself and within the Jewish religion.

However, don't kid yourself, most Jews are attuned to the hijinks in Israel both political and religious. Israel doesn't get a free pass from Jews, we hold Israel to account, I read Israeli news and have written the Knesset.

[Post To The Left]

This is part of the Israeli push to a society based on the Saudi model of separation of the sexes. These Jewish fundamentalists are pushing for, "forcing women to sit separately at the back of public buses, and demanding businesses avoid posting photographs of women or permitting them to work in establishments which they patronise."

Israeli Police have reinforced their presence in the town where the dispute flared, Beit Shemesh, after Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu order a crackdown on Sunday against zealots accused of trying to enforce a form of gender segregation across Israel.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/8979171/Israeli-police-arrest-ultra-Orthodox-protesters.html

[Bob]

The ultra orthodox of Israel are certainly religious loonies and nearly as bad as fundamentalist Muslims in their behavior. (Israeli nuts usually don't blow up one another.)

The above statement contains a typo, right? Certainly you didn't intend to state that the ultra-orthodox of Israel are nearly as bad Islamic fundamentalists. The overwhelming majority of self-identifying ultra-orthodox will condemn the absurd fringe among them that harass women for being "immodestly" dressed. These types of stories are uncommon and by no mains mainstream.

Apparently there's an uproar with women over the meshuge ultra orthodox orthodox ultra that told a woman to go to the back of the bus. She didn't and her 'case' hit the fan. Good for her.

Women do not sit on the back of the bus. When travelling by bus through certain religious neighbourhoods, people voluntarily separate themselves by gender. For example, if sitting in a section with two-seats facing two-seats, at the very least one side of this two-seat section will have two females (unless they are family members, where male-female separation isn't "required"), but will likely have four females, two sitting in each two-seat section. People on these buses normally move themselves about as people get on and off the bus in order to accommodate the desire of many of the passengers to adhere to this gender separation with respect to seating. Rarely, some ultra-religious moron (which is almost always a male) will harass women who refuse to move in order to accommodate others who which to only sit beside others of the same sex. Although people who refuse to play ball with this sort of unspoken set of rules are typically antagonists with a political agenda (which I sympathize with, by the way), who wish to create a scene, it is of course their right to choose to sit where they wish on a bus that is funded with public money. This narrative of "women sitting on the back of the bus" is absolutely untrue.

Glad you posted this it needed to be said.

GostHacked's intent with this thread is quite transparent. He's trying to draw some sort of parallel between what he describes as "religious extremists" among the ultra-orthodox Jewish community in Israel (who certainly have their share of problems, largely as a consequence of their own choices) and mass murderers who fly passenger jets into buildings. It's quite absurd, but par for the course with GostHacked.

[Bob]

This is part of the Israeli push to a society based on the Saudi model of separation of the sexes.

I literally burst of laughing and almost spilled water on my keyboard while reading this! In all seriousness, though, of course this is an absurd characterization of the goings-on in Israel. This "push", if you can even call it that (it's not even a tap, let alone a push) is coming from a fringe minority within a minority. Women can and do travel wherever they please in Israel (although perhaps they should think twice before going to several Arab-majority areas at certain times - Western women who've traveled to Israel will likely know what I am talking about).

If you were really concerned about gender equality in and around Israel, you would look at the Arab-Muslim communities, where male/female separation isn't the exception, but the norm (albeit largely voluntarily, with a dash of coercion). Bear in mind non-Muslim Arabs don't practise strict gender-separation (you will see Arab-Christian women, for example, leaving salons with fancy hairstyles, makeup, and stylish outfits). Furthermore, you will *never* see Arab-Muslim men and women walking together in Jerusalem outside of a family context. You'll also *never* see Arab-Muslim women walking without a hijab in Jerusalem. Of course this is irrelevant to you, as your entire motivation for posting about such issues on MLW is to portray Israel and Jewish people in a negative light - perhaps rooted in some perverted desire to do as many others do: to draw a moral equivalence between various groups where there is none to be drawn.

These Jewish fundamentalists are pushing for, "forcing women to sit separately at the back of public buses, and demanding businesses avoid posting photographs of women or permitting them to work in establishments which they patronise."

And their "demands" are of course ignored. The political parties, for example Shas, that you would likely describe as "Jewish fundamentalist" have already come out against this type of behaviour from the fringe groups. As usual, you're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. Your hollering over this story would be like someone from Norway decrying Canada for being misogynistic as a result of recent allegations of systemic sexual harassment against women at the RCMP. I would look as ridiculous as you do right now.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Bob

[Michael Hardner]

Since this topic comes up frequently - maybe we can just skip ahead to where people quantify what fringe view us in a society?

How about: 10% or less adhere to views counter to the prevailing values?

[GostHacked]

The above statement contains a typo, right? Certainly you didn't intend to state that the ultra-orthodox of Israel are nearly as bad Islamic fundamentalists. The overwhelming majority of self-identifying ultra-orthodox will condemn the absurd fringe among them that harass women for being "immodestly" dressed. These types of stories are uncommon and by no mains mainstream.

Really? Seems it's getting some mainstream attention.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16338376

Israel's president has urged Israelis to rally against ultra-Orthodox Jewish extremism in what he called a fight for the "soul of the nation".

Shimon Peres was speaking as activists prepared to protest in the town of Beit Shemesh against the way some ultra-Orthodox Jews treat women.

There have been two days of clashes in the town after a girl said she had been harassed on her way to school.

Some ultra-Orthodox in Beit Shemesh are seeking to segregate men and women.

GostHacked's intent with this thread is quite transparent. He's trying to draw some sort of parallel between what he describes as "religious extremists" among the ultra-orthodox Jewish community in Israel (who certainly have their share of problems, largely as a consequence of their own choices) and mass murderers who fly passenger jets into buildings. It's quite absurd, but par for the course with GostHacked.

So maybe you can tell me what my intentions are since you seem to know me so well? Speaking of me in the third person while trying to engage me or others in discussion won't help your argument, or your character.

But Bob, you seem to be apologetic for this kind of behavior because it does not equate the scale of what Muslims have done. Extremism in any religion looks the same. The Ultra Orthodox Jews (mostly males) seem to have personal issues when dealing with women. Maybe they were scorned by a woman in their life? Not sure.

This kind of thing happens everywhere. So why can't we all denounce the violence and extremists everywhere? Why does it have to turn into a 'they-and-us' thread? Why can't we agree that extremism is abhorrent in any nation. If we can't agree on that, we cannot make any progress to combat it.

[Bob]

Since this topic comes up frequently - maybe we can just skip ahead to where people quantify what fringe view us in a society?

How about: 10% or less adhere to views counter to the prevailing values?

This is where Michael Hardner attempts to come across as an ultra-rationalist (as if that's an endearing way to be) who wishes to quantify anything and everything. This is standard robotic Michael Hardner thinking at its finest - if there is even a shred of subjectivity or ambiguity to a concept, it short-circuits his brain! If he can't see it, touch it, hear it, or smell it, it cannot be objectively understood. Ah, the limitations of a self-imposed robotic mind. Very sad. But also very amusing.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Bob

[Michael Hardner]

This is where Michael Hardner attempts to come across as an ultra-rationalist (as if that's an endearing way to be) who wishes to quantify anything and everything. This is standard robotic Michael Hardner thinking at its finest - if there is even a shred of subjectivity or ambiguity to a concept, it short-circuits his brain! If he can't see it, touch it, hear it, or smell it, it cannot be objectively understood. Ah, the limitations of a self-imposed robotic mind. Very sad. But also very amusing.

Well, what is the alternative. These discussions start out with people holding up extremists as examples of a certain religion or other, followed by others who claim that these are fringe dwellers. In order for the conversation to move forward, we have to rely on objective facts, wouldn't you agree ?

[Bob]

Really? Seems it's getting some mainstream attention.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16338376

So maybe you can tell me what my intentions are since you seem to know me so well? Speaking of me in the third person while trying to engage me or others in discussion won't help your argument, or your character.

But Bob, you seem to be apologetic for this kind of behavior because it does not equate the scale of what Muslims have done. Extremism in any religion looks the same. The Ultra Orthodox Jews (mostly males) seem to have personal issues when dealing with women. Maybe they were scorned by a woman in their life? Not sure.

This kind of thing happens everywhere. So why can't we all denounce the violence and extremists everywhere? Why does it have to turn into a 'they-and-us' thread? Why can't we agree that extremism is abhorrent in any nation. If we can't agree on that, we cannot make any progress to combat it.

I have seen enough of your posts over enough time on MLW to see right through you. Your attempt to smear me as an apologist for idiot fringe groups among the ultra-orthodox communities in Israel is really an attempt to deflect for your real intention with this thread. I might as well try to suggest that Canada and America are waging similar fights for the "soul of the nation", where both countries combat violence against women. If women are much more likely to be raped in America or Canada than in Israel, why are you not waving your false flag for women's rights with a post about that? You know and I know that your intention with this thread is to play the moral equivalence game. End of story.

Israel, like any other country, has its issues, but they will not can cannot be addressed by someone like yourself. You just don't know enough, and you certainly don't have any real integrity on this issue. There are certainly legitimate grievances that many Israelis, including myself, feel towards components of the ultra-orthodox community in Israel as well as the broader segment of them in their entirety. Those problems, however, do no include isolated incidents of some idiot spitting on a girl he thinks is "immodestly" dressed. The real issues are about their unemployment resulting from their choice not to study conventional material academically, which is permitted by the state due to a disastrous decision made by Ben-Gurion in Israel's early days regarding stipends for religious students and exemptions from national service - leading certain components of the ultra-orthodox to be overly dependent on social assistance programs. Essentially, many of them are economic liabilities. You wouldn't know anything about that, though. You're just parroting the narrative from the anti-Israel crowd, and it's nothing new, that Israel and the Jewish people the moral equivalents of our enemies.

[Bob]

Well, what is the alternative. These discussions start out with people holding up extremists as examples of a certain religion or other, followed by others who claim that these are fringe dwellers. In order for the conversation to move forward, we have to rely on objective facts, wouldn't you agree ?

After we specifically define "fringe", you'll then be asking for "evidence" of statistics, right? Some poll or research project that breaks down the Israeli population into arbitrarily defined categories, which will undoubtedly contin within it certain inconsistencies by virtue of the subjective nature of the material being quantified. We will then need to "objectively define" what constitutes an "ultra-orthodox" person. Then define the "Haredim". And then on and on and on. It will never end. Of course Michael Hardner needs to be spoonfed along the way of the dialogue so that his brain doesn't short-circuit when concepts, issues, or ideas are brought up that cannot be touched, felt, tasted, heard and therefore measured "objectively". What a sad life you must live.

It's really sad how you think this painfully mechanical way of thinking actually assists you in understanding anything or learning new things. All it does it continuously demonstrate that you are incapable of abstract thinking and grasping subtleties, nuance, and concepts containing elements of ambiguity. I'm almost embarrassed for you when I read your posts. I wonder if you act this absurd in the real world.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Bob

[Michael Hardner]

After we specifically define "fringe", you'll then be asking for "evidence" of statistics, right? We will then need to "objectively define" what constitutes an "ultra-orthodox" person. Then define the "Haredim". And then on and on and on. It's really sad how you think this painfully mechanical way of thinking actually assists you in understanding anything or learning new things. All it does it continuously demonstrate that you are incapable of abstract thinking and grasping subtleties, nuance, and concepts containing elements of ambiguity. I'm almost embarrassed for you when I read your posts. I wonder if you act this absurd in the real world.

I am not saying I will accept any such metrics, I'm pointing out that people who use these terms - yes, this is you - need to have an idea as to what they are. It's interesting that you go after me, when all I'm really strongly in favour of is dialogue and objective empirical discussion. It's almost like you'd rather rely on your prose to make your argument, than any hard facts that could boomerang on you.

In any case, you've already indicated that you are willing to mock me and I'm wondering if that's an indication of your disinterest in talking to people. There are certainly plenty of people who would rather spew their anecdotes than listen to others and learn. Many may even think they have nothing to learn.

I'm just wondering about these things... whether you're interested in learning and discussion, or really what your motivation is for coming to a discussion board at all.

[Michael Hardner]

Bob- you apparentedly edited to add this after I responded:

Of course Michael Hardner needs to be spoonfed along the way of the dialogue so that his brain doesn't short-circuit when concepts, issues, or ideas are brought up that cannot be touched, felt, tasted, heard and therefore measured "objectively". What a sad life you must live.

You can leave my life out of it, if you don't mind. I'm happy enough with it. I'm even interested in your perspective enough to ask you tough questions about it. I can't "touch, feel, taste or hear" your arguments though, so please base them on facts. Evocative and descriptive language is for orators, not for written arguments. Sorry.

[Wild Bill]

Once again we see absurd attempts to make some kind of "moral equivalency". There is an Ultra-Orthodox segment of Israeli society. Once in a while one of them will get mouthy towards some woman for sitting at the front of a bus or at some woman on the street for the way she is dressed.

Of course, these hard core types do not have Israeli law behind them and the women involved are free to tell them to piss off! The only cost is some aggravation or embarrassment to these women, which may be mitigated somewhat by telling the old buzzards to "go forth and multiply".

Contrast this with the hard core Islamic fundamentalist countries or societies, where such fanatics DO have the force of Law behind them and if the woman involved was brave enough to tell them to piss off she might be stoned or even beheaded!

Yessir, sure looks like Israel is just as bad as Taliban country to me!

[GostHacked]

I have seen enough of your posts over enough time on MLW to see right through you. Your attempt to smear me as an apologist for idiot fringe groups among the ultra-orthodox communities in Israel is really an attempt to deflect for your real intention with this thread. I might as well try to suggest that Canada and America are waging similar fights for the "soul of the nation", where both countries combat violence against women. If women are much more likely to be raped in America or Canada than in Israel, why are you not waving your false flag for women's rights with a post about that? You know and I know that your intention with this thread is to play the moral equivalence game. End of story.

My intention is to have some sort of intelligent discussion.

Israel, like any other country, has its issues, but they will not can cannot be addressed by someone like yourself. You just don't know enough, and you certainly don't have any real integrity on this issue.

You are correct, they won't be addressed or solved by someone like me. That is up for the Israeli's to decide what to do about them. I could go into your integrity, but that is for another thread.

There are certainly legitimate grievances that many Israelis, including myself, feel towards components of the ultra-orthodox community in Israel as well as the broader segment of them in their entirety. Those problems, however, do no include isolated incidents of some idiot spitting on a girl he thinks is "immodestly" dressed.

Actually those 'isolated' incidents have gotten national attention in Israel.

The real issues are about their unemployment resulting from their choice not to study conventional material academically, which is permitted by the state due to a disastrous decision made by Ben-Gurion in Israel's early days regarding stipends for religious students and exemptions from national service - leading certain components of the ultra-orthodox to be overly dependent on social assistance programs. Essentially, many of them are economic liabilities.

So these guys would not be that extreme simply if they had a job? So maybe the rules should change, get a job and get off the welfare. They'd spend more time working than spitting on little girls. I

You wouldn't know anything about that, though. You're just parroting the narrative from the anti-Israel crowd, and it's nothing new, that Israel and the Jewish people the moral equivalents of our enemies.

I don't parrot anything. I state my view, even if it is not popular.

[Bob]

Perhaps the Israeli government regularly updates a database that keeps track of spitting incidents in Israel. Of course, we will need to compose an algorithm to factor in the likely number of unreported spitting incidents. Hopefully this databsse is managed and staffed by social scientist graduates well-trained in the collection of such information, so that each spitting incident is categorized by location, age of the offender and victim, degree of religiosity of both the offender and the victim, the time of the day or night of the incident, and other such essential and quantifiable factors. That should satisfy Michael Hardner, who will then be able to follow the discussion with empirical evidence. After all, he just wants to have a "dialogue".

Now I'm off off to find those statistics....

Edited December 27, 2011 by Bob

[Michael Hardner]

After all, he just wants to have a "dialogue".

Now I'm off off to find those statistics....

I'll be honest here, Bob - I do sometimes suspect you of harbouring prejudice. My experience with intelligent and well-spoken folks who harbour prejudice is that it's very difficult to convince them that prejudice itself represents lazy thinking and willful ignorance. It's a difficult conversation, because there often appears to be justification for prejudice.

But I don't exactly know what your views are. You seem to be very careful as to what you write, and what you don't write. When I asked you a question directly, you chose to mock me rather than answer so you're not making it easy to dialogue.

[Bob]

Once again we see absurd attempts to make some kind of "moral equivalency". There is an Ultra-Orthodox segment of Israeli society. Once in a while one of them will get mouthy towards some woman for sitting at the front of a bus or at some woman on the street for the way she is dressed.

Of course, these hard core types do not have Israeli law behind them and the women involved are free to tell them to piss off! The only cost is some aggravation or embarrassment to these women, which may be mitigated somewhat by telling the old buzzards to "go forth and multiply".

Contrast this with the hard core Islamic fundamentalist countries or societies, where such fanatics DO have the force of Law behind them and if the woman involved was brave enough to tell them to piss off she might be stoned or even beheaded!

Yessir, sure looks like Israel is just as bad as Taliban country to me!

That's exactly it. That's why GostHacked asked, in feigned bewilderment, why certain MLW regulars don't draw attention to such stories while focusing on equally reprehensible examples of "religious extremism" among Islamists. I guess this story is the moral parallel of female victims of rape being treated like criminals in Afghanistan (took two seconds to find this story on CNN when searching for "Afghanistan rape victim Kharzai"), or acid being thrown in the faces of girls going to school (took another second to find this story when searching for "Afghanistan acid attack").

Here's the first video that shows up in Google when searching for "modesty police Iran":

[Post To The Left]

This "push", if you can even call it that (it's not even a tap, let alone a push) is coming from a fringe minority within a minority.

That's right keep your head buried in the sand. Israeli President Shimon Peres calls the battle between Jewish Fundamentalists and secular Israelis an attack on the "soul of the nation" yet you call it just a few Jews raising their voice at women. But what does the President of Israel know, right? You seem to be in the loop more than him. Clinton publically "expresses concern over certain anti-democratic legislation and trends signifying the deterioration of the status of women in Israel" but hey she must be wrong if women are voluntarily moving to the back of the bus. I mean the before Rosa Parks the Blacks voluntarily moved to the back of bus too.

People in liberal countries joke about how "first they took my _____ then they took my liberty" but in Israel it is no joke. Religious freedom is being slowly eroded by this Jewish Fundamentalist population that breeds like rabbits, live like parasites on Israeli society and constantly agitate for more Settlements and violence against Palestinians. Yet in Israel they have a Kingmaker status in the Israeli government that allows their ultra-religious parties to enforce their own policies and laws.

One only has to look at history to find groups that are "fringe minority within a minority" that took control of the political process. Lenin once bragged that only 5% of Russia supported communism yet he was able to install a Communist Regime creating the USSR. How long before the Jewish Fundamentalists do the same thing? How long before the religious parties install another branch of government, a supreme Jewish council, where "learned" Jewish rabbis have veto power over Israeli legislation?

Edited December 27, 2011 by Post To The Left

[Scotty]

Once again we see absurd attempts to make some kind of "moral equivalency". There is an Ultra-Orthodox segment of Israeli society. Once in a while one of them will get mouthy towards some woman for sitting at the front of a bus or at some woman on the street for the way she is dressed.

I'd call spitting on people getting mouthy, yes. I'd call throwing stones at women who are 'immodestly dressed' considerably more than that.

Don't a lot of people in Israel carry guns around? Wouldn't a woman being 'stoned' by men be legally entitled to pull out her Uzi and gun the freaks down?

[dre]

I do sometimes suspect you of harbouring prejudice.

[Jack Weber]

I'll be honest here, Bob - I do sometimes suspect you of harbouring prejudice. My experience with intelligent and well-spoken folks who harbour prejudice is that it's very difficult to convince them that prejudice itself represents lazy thinking and willful ignorance. It's a difficult conversation, because there often appears to be justification for prejudice.

But I don't exactly know what your views are. You seem to be very careful as to what you write, and what you don't write. When I asked you a question directly, you chose to mock me rather than answer so you're not making it easy to dialogue.

I don't suspect anything....

What other views would an ultra right wing nationalist,of any stripe,other than ethnosupremacist views?

Bob finds Islam repugnant...He calls Gentiles the term Goy and Goyim, bothderogatory terms he'll deny...

He's in the perfect place for him,though....A meaningless pile of Mediterranean rocks were he can carry out his hateful views on anyone,or anything,non-Judaic....

Feel safe in the fact that he chose to leave!!!

[Guest Peeves]

http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/28/israel-fighting-for-the-soul-of-the-nation-against-ultra-orthodox-segregationist-zealots/

Facts are facts, but, I'd far rather live as an Israeli Arab citizen in Israel than in bordering countries.

Certainly the radical fringe ultra orthodox cannot be allowed to control even a section of a free country as is Israel. They must be dealt with for the rights of the other citizens.

No one ever expects Israel not to have warts, but, generally Israel addresses them with justice.

[Uncle 3 dogs]

Something from the other side of the fence.

Not the other side at all. It's from the side with all the religious nuts, whether Muslim, Jewish, or Christian.