Face veils banned for citizenship oaths

[cybercoma]

Bank robberies are happening all the time? Using all sorts of masks? How would you know that? Perhaps because those robberies are reported. Are they "sensationalizing" it when they report a bank robbery where a ski mask was involved? No. They are reporting it; as this one should have been reported too. FYI, reporting is not sensationalizing.

Your response it is a perfect example of the "scared it seems that reporting the incident would attract accusations....." mindset that resulted in the media not reporting it.

Good Lord. For one thing, even if there were such a rampant problem, we wouldn't know, would we? Since the moral of the story is that it wasn't reported because of the fear of accusations.

As to how it's relevant to the story - it's part of the story. Same as a ski mask is part of the story when a robbery is committed by someone wearing a ski mask - and such a robbery actually makes the news. Same as a gun, if used, is part of the story - and reported.

So what's your point and how does it relate to citizenship oaths?

[Jack Weber]

You...you...RACIST!!! Wait...is a veil a race?

I'm not,but apparently,Muslim men have to have "thier" women disguised because they are so bootylicious and they cannot control themselves???

But I'm not Muslim,so their "charms" are ineffective on me!!!!

[cybercoma]

I'm not,but apparently,Muslim men have to have "thier" women disguised because they are so bootylicious and they cannot control themselves???

But I'm not Muslim,so their "charms" are ineffective on me!!!!

I question any society that forces women to cover themselves in veils, but in our society where women are sexualized by the media and treated as objects by men, can you say we treat them any better? A survey done by the CDC in the United States showed a stunning 1 in 4 women have been victims of violence or rape. I think women wearing veils is the least of our problems.

[Guest American Woman]

So what's your point and how does it relate to citizenship oaths?

Oh. My. God. If you don't get my point, I'm afraid there's absolutely nothing I can do to help you ... but here's a hint: it relates to your post.

[cybercoma]

The Conservatives play this off like they are advocating women's rights and that we have a free society, but this is the same Conservative government that eliminated funding for Sisters in Spirit, although Conservative MPs criticized their own party's decision and shut down almost every Status of Women regional office. Women's rights in Canada have actually gone backwards! The report to the UN from that last link, which I've posted here already, indicates that women in Canada are falling behind because those aforementioned advocacy groups have been dismantled, national day-care was scrapped, and there's a widening gap between men and women's incomes. There's certainly nothing to be proud about in Canada. It doesn't make me proud that we simply do better than some of the worst human rights violators on the planet. It's great that we don't force women to cover themselves entirely, have their genitals mutilated, or be stoned to death if their neighbour rapes them. Women, however, are far from equal here and we can even begin to say that we don't oppress and discriminate against them in our society.

[cybercoma]

Oh. My. God. If you don't get my point, I'm afraid there's absolutely nothing I can do to help you ... but here's a hint: it relates to your post.

I don't get your point because you didn't make one. Sorry.

[Guest American Woman]

I don't get your point because you didn't make one. Sorry.

I'm the one who's sorry. For wasting my time responding to you.

[cybercoma]

I'm the one who's sorry. For wasting my time responding to you.

Are you going to keep acting like a juvenile little troll or are you going to clarify your point like the adult that you supposedly are?

[Scotty]

Please. Since when does a man become a whore or a skank for the way he dresses? Or when is he a prude for covering himself up too much? It's not at all even remotely close to the same thing.

It's the same thing in that men are trapped in the same cultural role, regardless of their ability to fulfill it. Women are expected to be, and try their very best to be, hot and beautiful. Men are expected to be rugged, and macho -- while at the same time being sensitive and sweet. I think the women have it easier, frankly. Men aren't dismissed as whores or skanks for failing to properly fulfil their roles. They're dismissed as wimps and pussies -- by women looking for rugged 'cut' men with washboard abs and broad shoulders.

[Scotty]

for one it offends others religious beliefs on modesty...which is what you're advocating these women go through...

I personally don't care I'd just find you gross...

It offends cultural beliefs. Just like people covering their faces in scarves or sheets. People relate to each other as members of the community through common interactions and associations. Those interactions are frustrated when all you're seeing is a black ghost with a pair of eyes peering out of peep holes. Such women are, in effect, excluding themselves from being a part of society.

[Scotty]

coming from someone who suffers from the Dunning–Kruger effect I take that as validation of my knowledge...

Even were your diagnosis based on anything more than a childish desire to insult me, the logical fallacy in your assumption is very clear.

Not that logic plays much of a part in your postings, of course.

Oooo! Ooo! It's a Nazi! It's a Nazi! It's under my bed! Help me! Help me!

PHhhtttt! You clearly don't have the first clue what a Nazi is.

[Scotty]

WTF does that have to do with pointedly showing the OP how wrong he was?

Ah, quite simple. I was pointing out that you have no logic behind your statement, and so you didn't actually show him he was wrong.

You assume, that simple because certain ethnic groups in the past assimilated, that this particular ethic group will assimilate as well. This seems to be based upon your belief that all groups can be assimilated with equal ease. That has not been shown to be the case. This particular group has different circumstances. It exists in a different time period, with constant communication, television, telephone, videos and travel between their homelands and Canada, for example. to help reinforce their sense of self. Modern travel also makes it quite easy for parents to send their children home to get their mates. The economic disparity between Canada and their homelands, moreover, makes it profitable to do so as parents in those third world countries will pay a premium to get their child married to someone with a Canadian passport. And, of course, the fact is these are members of very religious, non-Christian group with an entirely different language (ie, not one with any correlation with modern European languages, and even a foreign character set. How many of those have we easily assimilated in the past?

[Scotty]

Zing !

Thats gotta sting.

My God, it takes little to impress you!

Do you sit, awestruck, as you watch the byproducts of your last meal disappear down the toilet, at the wonder and majesty of plumbing?

[Scotty]

Frighteningly, people in this thread have used the same logic to argue that a woman's right to dress however she want ought to be violated by banning certain garments. You know... because it threatens Canadian values.

You apparently frighten very easily. Maybe you should hide yourself under a bed sheet whenever you go outside to help shut the world away...

[Scotty]

How so? Are you suggesting a little bit of bigotry is ok?

I'm suggesting that comparing someone to Nazis because they don't like women to have their faces covered is stupid.

[Guest American Woman]

It's the same thing in that men are trapped in the same cultural role, regardless of their ability to fulfill it. Women are expected to be, and try their very best to be, hot and beautiful. Men are expected to be rugged, and macho -- while at the same time being sensitive and sweet. I think the women have it easier, frankly. Men aren't dismissed as whores or skanks for failing to properly fulfil their roles. They're dismissed as wimps and pussies -- by women looking for rugged 'cut' men with washboard abs and broad shoulders.

It works both ways, for sure. It's not a one-sided society the way the societies that oppress women are. Some say women have more struggles with equality in the work world while some say white male men have the most difficulty getting hired. I fail to see how women have it easier, though - "skank" or "whimp" - neither is desirable. I don't think the majority of men or women judge the other that way, though.* I don't think most people ultimately value beauty and abs as much as it's made out to be, either - there are always going to be some, but they are really quite superficial. As we look around, though, most people, most couples, are just average-looking people.

*And it's not just men judging women that way - women do it to each other, too - as men make other men feel like "wimps" if they are sensitive, etc. - it's not just women judging men that way.

[Scotty]

How does wisdom and judgement help in discerning a book written by a Sociopath?

If you can't tell the difference between a megalomaniac mass-murderer and someone who merely expresses discomfort or even prejudice at what is, to our culture, bizarre foreign costumes then I question whether you could possibly understand the book.

[Scotty]

That's news.....I had a good chuckle though..

My apologies, then. In 99% of the cases I've seen where "Nazi" epithets are flung around so eagerly and easily it's coming from the far Left.

Then again, maybe you just have a lot more in common with the far Left than you thought.

[Scotty]

Comic book? I stopped reading those about 40 years ago………Instead of personal attacks, why don’t you outline your positions on when it’s ok to “control others”.

Buddy, you gave up the right to complain about personal attacks when you started screaming Nazi...

[Scotty]

oh grow a pair...I attacked no one, you may want to consult the dictionary on "ad hominem"... Derek L and discussed posts that reflected nazi beliefs, "criticize the post, not the poster"..if people don't like having their shared values with fascists criticized they shouldn't post them..

Thus demonstrating that not only do you know know anything about Nazis you don't know anything about ad hominems.

[Scotty]

What world are you living in??

Apparently not the one where Hillary Clinton nearly became President, and mostly lost because so much of the liberal let was enthralled with the idea of a Black candidate.

[Scotty]

AW, your comments stem from total ignorance. While women make up over 50% of the Canadian population here is how the breakdown of what percentage of seats females have held since 1990:

1990 13.3

1997 18

1998 20.6

1999 20.6

2000 20.6

2001 20.6

2002 20.6

2003 20.6

2004 20.6

2005 21.1

2006 20.8

2007 20.8

2008 21.3

2009 22.1

2010 22.1

So your assertion that they have equality in politics is completely wrong.

Once again, this is once known as a logical fallacy. You presume that because the numbers of women aren't equal to their numbers in the population there isn't equality of opportunity. It apparently hasn't occurred to you that the desire to enter politics may not manifest itself equally in both men and women. For example, the police forces try mightily to recruit Asians, women, and others but the reason they have to TRY so hard, unlike with men, is that women, Asians, and a number of other groups, have very little collective desire to be police constables.

Likewise, women have less willingness to enter the greasy world of politics than men.

[cybercoma]

You apparently frighten very easily. Maybe you should hide yourself under a bed sheet whenever you go outside to help shut the world away...

Grow up.

[cybercoma]

Once again, this is once known as a logical fallacy. You presume that because the numbers of women aren't equal to their numbers in the population there isn't equality of opportunity. It apparently hasn't occurred to you that the desire to enter politics may not manifest itself equally in both men and women. For example, the police forces try mightily to recruit Asians, women, and others but the reason they have to TRY so hard, unlike with men, is that women, Asians, and a number of other groups, have very little collective desire to be police constables.

Likewise, women have less willingness to enter the greasy world of politics than men.

For the major political parties, nomination must be sought in the constituencies. Women are not equally nominated. Moreover, you have to question why women do not enter the political arena? What is it about our culture that make them feel like that's not their place? In those ways, the opportunity surely is not equal. There are no legal limitations to them entering that sphere, but an insidious cultural oppression remains strong here. It's also telling that you cut out the Fortune 1000 CEOs because it's a lot more telling when you look at CEOs of corporations. Only 3.4%... that's ridiculous. There's no way that 50% of the population can be that poorly represented in that sphere without there being some sort of systemic limitation preventing it. The Old Boys Club is still alive and well.

[jacee]

Zz

I think Tarek Fatah - states the case along with authority in this reference.I agree with him. The mask of subjugation is an anachronistic reminder of the 7th century perhaps.

I think Canada needs to follow the lead of other countries in banning the burka, chador,niqab ype garment. I have no objection whatsoever to the wearing of a hair covering veil so long as it is not counter indicated as in sports perhaps..

I have similarly no problem with the Sikh traditional kirpan so long as it's not sharp, though some do.

Nor, the wearing of a crucifix though some do.

I do draw the line at any concession that conflicts with Canadian laws or common sense like vision impairment while driving..etc.

You know what? I don't really give a damn about any man's opinion of women's choice of apparel, including all the men on here who think it's their business: It's not.

I'll go along with the vision impairment when driving though - eg, the fully covered burka with the lacy eye holes only - as long as it isn't just an excuse, but I think you are sincere.

The 'excuse' by AW that some men wear burqas in robbing banks, however, is not sincere: If it was, then Hallowe'en masks would have been made illegal long ago.

And wearing or holding your scarf over your face (or balaclava) in winter in Canada is sometimes an absolute necessity ... or a snowmobile helmet ...

That's why I think this topic is so ridiculous.

There is NO WAY I want my apparel options limited.

In fact, on days of bad hair, bad face and bad body, I'd like nothing more than to throw on a burqa to zip to the store.