Face veils banned for citizenship oaths

[cybercoma]

Said it yesterday......

I think this thread says a lot about this forum......60 pages of dicussion on a topic that Canadians overwhelmingly support - over 80%. Yet there are still ideological dissenters. Hey, that's democracy....and I love it! But beware the squeaky wheel.

Your comment was already addressed, but thanks for repeating it.

[Guest American Woman]

Said it yesterday......

I think this thread says a lot about this forum......60 pages of dicussion on a topic that Canadians overwhelmingly support - over 80%. Yet there are still ideological dissenters. Hey, that's democracy....and I love it! But beware the squeaky wheel.

80% of Canadians support the ban? What is your source for that figure?- do you have a link? Thanks.

[cybercoma]

99% of Canadians could support the ban and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. The majority of Canadians at some point or another were against inter-racial marriages, gay marriages, female reproductive rights, and supported capital punishment. What the majority wants doesn't matter a bit when it infringes on the reights of the minority. That's why we have a Constitution and a Charter of Rights.

[Guest American Woman]

99% of Canadians could support the ban and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference.

Sorry, but you don't get to speak for me, and it does make a difference to me - which is why I asked for the source/link.

[guyser]

Why do you feel it necessary to act like a juvenile bully in almost every post? You trumpet your own presumed prowess and never let a moment pass by where you think you can put down and denigrate whoever you are discussing an issue with. Are you this mean-spirited and nasty in real life?

Because I like when I put down ignorant blowhards whose entire raison d'etre is to denigrate anything but whitey,using spurious links not to mention getting them wrong ,most of the time, plus having fun blowing holes in their (read :yours) argument (only to see them come back with more stupidity)

As for real life and mean spirited , I can be, stupidity should be mocked unless the person can't help themselves. Hmm....maybe thats the issue.

Hope that explains it.

[Guest American Woman]

I've read articles that say sometimes Muslim families in Europe and North America are paid by extremist organizations to force the females in the family to wear the hijab. A survey conducted in France in May 2003 found that 77 percent of girls wearing the hijab said they did so because of physical threats from Islamist groups. Girls posting pictures on Facebook have been blackmailed and threatened for it. There are Muslims who see the ban of the hijab/burka in western countries as liberating. As long as they are legal, women will not have equality.

[Scotty]

Hope that explains it.

Bullies always think they have the right to bully people, because to bullies, everyone is inferior to them. Bullies never have difficulty justifying their mean spirited attacks on others. All that matters, to them, is them.

[guyser]

... because to bullies, everyone is inferior to them. Bullies never have difficulty justifying their mean spirited attacks on others. All that matters, to them, is them.

Sorry, lots of great posters on this site, come with facts that back them up, make reasoned arguments and are not prone to hyperbole or spurious claims.

If you post with intelligence and links that support, then all is ok.

[cybercoma]

Sorry, but you don't get to speak for me, and it does make a difference to me - which is why I asked for the source/link.

It's a logical fallacy called ad populum. Who cares if it makes a difference to you. It's an argumentative error.

[cybercoma]

I've read articles that say sometimes Muslim families in Europe and North America are paid by extremist organizations to force the females in the family to wear the hijab. A survey conducted in France in May 2003 found that 77 percent of girls wearing the hijab said they did so because of physical threats from Islamist groups. Girls posting pictures on Facebook have been blackmailed and threatened for it. There are Muslims who see the ban of the hijab/burka in western countries as liberating. As long as they are legal, women will not have equality.

I told you the types of problems criminalizing the hijab will lead to.

It must be their choice to remove it, not by threat of criminal sanctions.

Have you ever seen the movie or read the book A Clockwork Orange? The entire point of the movie is the question of whether or not Alex is really a better person following the Ludovico Technique. He is no longer capable of making the rational choice to do good or to be better. The question is whether someone can be good by doing good even if they have not made the conscious decision to be good. I would suggest that he's no better than he was before. He was choosing to evil prior to his "therapy." However, he has never made the choice to be good. He's still evil, but incapable of doing evil.

For the hijab, it is much better to empower women to throw off the veil, rather than force it upon them. Once again, you haven't addressed the fact that many of them will avoid getting their citizenship and thus be excluded from our society. When they're truly in abusive situations in their families and communities, they will have no one to turn to because of the threat of deportation. Moreover, those that may see Canada as a place of refuge may avoid coming here because they don't want to suffer the embarassment and humiliation of doing something that they're not comfortable with. The ones that would take off the veil, it doesn't matter because they're not the ones wearing it at the ceremony. They probably already removed it when they got here. The problem is that you don't think we need to be accommodating to those who would find that humiliating or embarassing. Rather than empower them to make the conscious choice to remove it, you want to make them criminals.

As bush_cheney2004 would have said, it doesn't really matter what you want. Worry about your own country and Canadians will worry about ours.

[Scotty]

Sorry, lots of great posters on this site, come with facts that back them up, make reasoned arguments and are not prone to hyperbole or spurious claims.

I have seen no posts of yours which resemble those described above. Most seem to consist almost entirely of sneering attacks on the posters themselves - regardless of subject.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Scotty

[Guest American Woman]

Who cares if it makes a difference to you.

Once again the answer would be - I do.

Said it yesterday......

I think this thread says a lot about this forum......60 pages of dicussion on a topic that Canadians overwhelmingly support - over 80%. Yet there are still ideological dissenters. Hey, that's democracy....and I love it! But beware the squeaky wheel.

80% of Canadians support the ban? What is your source for that figure?- do you have a link? Thanks.

Has anyone else run across any polls/surveys on this? If so, I'd appreciate a link. I've seen the unscientific site polls, but haven't seen any official polls/surveys.

Thanks.

[olp1fan]

As bush_cheney2004 would have said, it doesn't really matter what you want. Worry about your own country and Canadians will worry about ours.

You seem to be more worried about being politically correct and pandering to minorities who are not even Canadian citizens yet

80% of Canadians agree on this issue

Mosy Canadians ARE worrying about their country, you however are not

[olp1fan]

Once again the answer would be - I do.

Has anyone else run across any polls/surveys on this? If so, I'd appreciate a link. I've seen the unscientific site polls, but haven't seen any official polls/surveys.

Thanks.

http://m.torontosun.com/2011/12/15/no-veil-rule-has-support-of-canadians

[Guest American Woman]

http://m.torontosun.com/2011/12/15/no-veil-rule-has-support-of-canadians

I found that very interesting. Thank you.

[cybercoma]

Mosy Canadians ARE worrying about their country, you however are not

Fear is always a good place to be making decisions from when it comes to immigration policy. Just look at how well it worked for the Chinese, the Jews on the St. Louis, and those on the Komagata Maru.

[olp1fan]

Fear is always a good place to be making decisions from when it comes to immigration policy. Just look at how well it worked for the Chinese, the Jews on the St. Louis, and those on the Komagata Maru.

this has nothing to do with fear.. this has to do with the Muslim values not being Canadian values

[cybercoma]

this has nothing to do with fear.. this has to do with the Muslim values not being Canadian values

You said it has to do with worrying. People worry because they're afraid.

[olp1fan]

You said it has to do with worrying. People worry because they're afraid.

I'm not worried but just like any country we have values that need to be valued by minorities who live in this country

[dre]

As long as they are legal, women will not have equality.

No, women will have equality when they can choose what they want to wear. Not when the state decides for them, or an abusive husband.

[Black Dog]

As for this: "We characterize men in roles where they are superior to women and where women's only hope is to be attractive enough to gain the affections of a man who can save her" - I honestly wonder what world you are living it. Seriously. And then Black Dog comes along and insults ME for challenging this Dark Ages take on what life is like for females in our society; how females feel in our society. You, as men, try to tell me, a woman, what it's all about for women - and then insult me when I point out how doing so is sexist. My God. The irony.

Yeah, as if it's just us men who are saying this shit. Honestly, I wouldn't be aware of any of this shit if it wasn't for all the women in my life who've told me how it is for them. So tell me, do your experiences trump theirs? Are they sexist too for feeling shitty about how society and the media constructs gender identities for women and demands they live up to them? Or are they just deluded feminazis who don't know how good they really have it and should just STFU?

You haven't had that experience? Good for you, you're one lucky blonde white lady. But get your head out of your ass and stop acting like you speak for all women by virtue of having a vagina of your own.

Our societies put the same pressures on men and women equally. AND THAT HAS BEEN MY POINT.

I'M A MAN HOW DARE YOU TELL ME WHAT PRESSURES SOCIETY PLACES ON ME.

[cybercoma]

I'M A MAN HOW DARE YOU TELL ME WHAT PRESSURES SOCIETY PLACES ON ME.

nice.

[Guest American Woman]

I'M A MAN HOW DARE YOU TELL ME WHAT PRESSURES SOCIETY PLACES ON ME.

I didn't tell you personally how you feel and I didn't say society only values men for something as superficial as looks; and you didn't say to me "I don't feel that I am only valued for my looks" and I didn't say in response "then you are brainwashed."

Furthermore, I didn't say what men place their value on - I didn't say men only feel valued for (fill in the blank), much less tell you personally what you place your value on, and I sure as hell wouldn't tell you that it's only because you are brainwashed if you don't feel these things.

SEE THE DIFFERENCE??

Somehow I doubt it.

So of course once again you are completely off the mark as to what I did say. Why am I not surprised?

Edited December 19, 2011 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

No, women will have equality when they can choose what they want to wear. Not when the state decides for them, or an abusive husband.

Women will only have equality when the state doesn't let men, or an abusive father, or an abusive husband, dictate what they have to wear. As long as the state allows men to do this in the name of 'freedom of religion,' too many women will not find a free, equal society in our nations.

Freedoms are not absolute, and when it harms a specific segment of society, the freedom is sometimes denied to prevent the potential abuse. Your hate speech is not against your Charter of Rights for that reason. Freedom of religion is also not absolute, which is why polygamy is not allowed.

Did you read where extremist organizations are paying men in some instances to force the women in their lives to cover up? And that's in Europe and North America. Did you read that 77% of the girls surveyed in France in 2003 said they only wore the hijab because of force or threats of violence?

These are not, as Kenney said, Canadian values, and anyone choosing to live in Canada should accept Canadian values - Canada should not bend to their values.

Edited December 19, 2011 by American Woman

[cybercoma]

I didn't tell you personally how you feel and I didn't say society only values men for something as superficial as looks; and you didn't say to me "I don't feel those pressures" and I didn't say in response "then you are brainwashed."

Furthermore, I didn't say what men place their value on - I didn't say men only feel valued for (fill in the blank), much less tell you personally what you place your value on, and I sure as hell wouldn't tell you that it's only because you are brainwashed if you don't feel these things.

SEE THE DIFFERENCE??

Somehow I doubt it.

So of course once again you are completely off the mark as to what I did say. Why am I not surprised?

The difference is that I didn't tell you those things either, but keep making crap up. It's amusing.