Face veils banned for citizenship oaths

[cybercoma]

Holy crap... This thread is a drunken car wreck. Were gonna talk about Irans nuclear program now?

:lol:

Well, you know, all THOSE Muslims are the same, right?

[olp1fan]

Wait a minute...

There's an incongruency here...

On one hand you are opining that Muslims either can't,or more likely won't,assimilate into North American secular society.

On the other hand,you seem prepared to give the ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN a pass on nuclear technological development because they have a fantastic record of restraint?

I don't support the killing of innocent people just cause I disagree with their culture

I don't see why Iran can't develop a nuclear deterrent so no country can bully it or invade

[cybercoma]

second generation Muslims in Canada are at least highly involved in their religion

So they're religious? What's your point? Want to ban Islam from Canada now?

[dre]

I have an unopened bottle of Jim Beam and some Four Roses Small Batch on hand...

Man thats decent. I have a bottle of sailor jerrys I might work on Youre way uptown from me

[guyser]

We know nothing of the sort.

You mean "you dont know" but the author of the report you highlighted , and really should have read if it mattered , disagrees .

Wait a sec, how 'bout shreds your thoughts to pieces.

Conclusion

What we are finding is that Canada’s second generation

Muslim youth are constructing their identities in general,

and their religious identities in particular, in diverse and

highly original ways, without regard for what the majority

might think and without apparent fear of marginalization,

as would be expected in a context that claims to permit

and even encourage this. Yet these same people, with

few exceptions, also claim to feel entirely comfortable in

Canada, to consider it a fine place to live, that welcomes

immigrants and accepts difference. In short, they are

different, but they usually also feel completely, and in an

unproblematic way, Canadian.The second generation in our preliminary sample did

not, on the whole, feel disempowered or disadvantaged; nor

did they seem fearful of their futures. Their attitude to

discrimination, which a great many had experienced in

their lives, was to ignore it as the manifestation of others’

ignorance, and certainly not to accept it as a feature of the

society in which they lived. Canada’s multiculturalism

policy, ideology and orientation definitely structures the

limits of how one can be different; it is a very integrationist

and, perhaps in its own way, even an assimilative

multiculturalism. Yet it is also one that the second

generation youth in our research seem to accept as genuine,

as permitting them to live their lives as their religious

convictions see fit. None wanted to live in a society where

Islam was the sole religion. They all valued living in a society

that is religiously and culturally diverse. One female

participant, when asked how she felt about Canada’s

diversity, summed it up succinctly for the others:

I think it’s a good thing for Canada. I mean it’s

always more exposure, more ideas, more….Even

within religion itself, if you don’t necessarily

believe in another religion, you can always take

certain aspects of what they practice or what

they do if it’s a really good thing. I mean I see

it as a good thing, it’s just more diversity and

more exposure to ideas you never would have

considered before had you been living in a small

tiny bubble.

This conclusion applies especially to the highly diverse,

but also highly involved, ways in which the majority of these

Muslims construct their personal identities and their Islam.

Confirming conclusions reached from research among

second generation Muslim youth in Europe (Khosrokhavar

1997, Vertovec and Rogers 1998), Canada’s counterparts

seem to be exhibiting a similar combination of greatly

varied, highly individualistic and, for the most, very serious

attitudes towards their religion. They are not dependent on

their elders, they do not rely on traditional sources of

Islamic authority, and they are not in the least hesitant about

creating their own bricolages.9 These are not people who are

just carrying on the traditions of their immigrant parents in

a kind of exercise in religiocultural preservation. Nor are

they people who are simply “assimilating” to the dominant

culture. Like most youth in Canada, they seem to feel it

incumbent upon themselves to reconstruct their world on a

primarily individual basis. Their Islam is innovative rather

than imitative, individual rather than communitarian,

covering somewhat evenly a vast spectrum from what some

observers might be tempted to label as “extremists” but

which I will avoid for the same reason the majority of the

participants scorned such terms – for being limiting and one-dimensional

[Scotty]

So they're religious? What's your point? Want to ban Islam from Canada now?

The more religious you are, with respect to Islam, the less you support common Canadian values, including democracy, equality and respect for others.

[dre]

So they're religious? What's your point? Want to ban Islam from Canada now?

Yeah Id rather see data on how much crime they commit, how much money they make, and how much taxes they pay.

[guyser]

The more religious you are, with respect to Islam, the less you support common Canadian values, including democracy, equality and respect for others.

Only "islam" huh?

When in a hole s, stop digging. Your holes started about ...oh....30 pages ago.

It is now embarassing.

[dre]

The more religious you are, with respect to Islam, the less you support common Canadian values, including democracy, equality and respect for others.

So do second generation muslims cause more social disorder? Commit more crime? Are they less successful here? Less likely to own a home? Pay Taxes?

[Guest American Woman]

The more religious you are, with respect to Islam, the less you support common Canadian values, including democracy, equality and respect for others.

I have to disagree; I think there are plenty of very religious Muslims who value "common Canadian values." "Very religious" isn't synonymous with "fundamentalist" or "extremist" etc. I think most Muslims likely are "very religious," and the majority certainly would support the Canadian values you mention.

[Scotty]

Only "islam" huh?

When in a hole s, stop digging. Your holes started about ...oh....30 pages ago.

It is now embarassing.

Every post you make ought to embarrass you. If you had any shame and the wit to realize what an impression you leave with readers.

[Scotty]

I have to disagree; I think there are plenty of very religious Muslims who value "common Canadian values." "Very religious" isn't synonymous with "fundamentalist" or "extremist" etc. I think most Muslims likely are "very religious," and the majority certainly would support the Canadian values you mention.

If they did they wouldn't cover their women in sheets and treat them like third class people.

[dre]

If they did they wouldn't cover their women in sheets and treat them like third class people.

I dont think very many do. At least not where I live. This really is a total non-issue.

[Guest American Woman]

If they did they wouldn't cover their women in sheets and treat them like third class people.

The majority don't.

[cybercoma]

The more religious you are, with respect to Islam, the less you support common Canadian values, including democracy, equality and respect for others.

This is incredibly insulting and wrong. Back that up with evidence or kindly stfu. You know how much "Muslims" hate democracy? They risked their lives to line up at polls in the Middle East. Protesters are being killed by tyrants for the right to vote. Give me a break.

Moreover, if you actually read the conclusion of that study you found, as was pointed out above, they decidedly see themselves as Canadian.

Its this kind of stuff that makes people call you bigoted.

[cybercoma]

I have to disagree; I think there are plenty of very religious Muslims who value "common Canadian values." "Very religious" isn't synonymous with "fundamentalist" or "extremist" etc. I think most Muslims likely are "very religious," and the majority certainly would support the Canadian values you mention.

He makes it sound like Dearborn would be a third world country.

[cybercoma]

If they did they wouldn't cover their women in sheets and treat them like third class people.

They don't. Only some do.

[Wilber]

You likely do it all the time. Not one of your bills paid online is face to face.

True, but they are transactions with utilities, some of them government owned. I also record the transaction number and date paid.

In my case, I am an insurance broker, and I bind coverage , issue legal documents for places and things I have never and will never see.

And if they don't pay their bill,I am on the hook for it.(some cases are an exception if it is a Direct Bill from the ins company)

I do my insurance business at a bricks and mortar company. I assure you I would not sit down and deal with agent who had their face covered. I would ask for someone else and I wouldn't care what their race or religion was. It's my business, my money and my cultural tradition is comfortable with being able to see the face of the person with whom I am dealing. If I am not comfortable dealing with a person who will not show me their face, that's tough. It goes both ways.

Very few at all. Our legal system demands that papers be served to either the accused,his reps, his estate or what have you.

In the case of corporations, (see SSEC Oil in Alberta) they will sometimes fold up and not leave anyone repping them behind thus the law will not allow papers to be served outside the country.

In the case of private individuals, it is generally not worth the bother.But the estate, should it be a civil suit would proceed because the estate is the rep.

My point is that somewhere along the line there has to be evidence that physically connects the crime to the accused. The criminal may be dead or in absentia but there have to be witnesses who can connect them to the crime.

[Jack Weber]

This is incredibly insulting and wrong. Back that up with evidence or kindly stfu. You know how much "Muslims" hate democracy? They risked their lives to line up at polls in the Middle East. Protesters are being killed by tyrants for the right to vote. Give me a break.

Moreover, if you actually read the conclusion of that study you found, as was pointed out above, they decidedly see themselves as Canadian.

Its this kind of stuff that makes people call you bigoted.

Cyber,this is the same guy in the summer who felt it was'nt bigotted to admit all he really knew of black people was what he ahd seen on TV and the limited times he had had any social interractions with black folks were with a few with "thick accents"...The intimation being that his stereotypical view was enough to go on...

[cybercoma]

My point is that somewhere along the line there has to be evidence that physically connects the crime to the accused. The criminal may be dead or in absentia but there have to be witnesses who can connect them to the crime.

Which is why a Muslim woman that covers her face would be charged with an additional offense if she commits a crime.

[cybercoma]

Cyber,this is the same guy in the summer who felt it was'nt bigotted to admit all he really knew of black people was what he ahd seen on TV and the limited times he had had any social interractions with black folks were with a few with "thick accents"...The intimation being that his stereotypical view was enough to go on...

You can't be serious.

[Wilber]

Never mind.

Edited December 17, 2011 by Wilber

[Jack Weber]

You can't be serious.

Completely serious...

[Guest American Woman]

It goes beyond being "judged" for your looks. It has to do with a woman's value being tied directly to sexualized notions of her attractiveness. Women are taught firstorto be pretty and men are taught to first appreciate their prettiness. Take a look at the "dress-up" costumes they have in Indigo next time you go there. The girl costumes are all princesses, nurses, etc, while the boys costumes are professions like knights (to save the princesses), doctors (to be the nurses bosses), etc. We characterize men in roles where they are superior to women and where women's only hope is to be attractive enough to gain the affections of a man who can save her. When a man is judged for his looks, it's not the same as women whose most valuable asset in our society is her looks. It's really not the same thing at all. We're not talking about particular instances where a woman judges a man's looks... we're talking about a culturally engrained perspective, the way men and women are trained in perceiving their "place" in society.

This is all so bizarre as to be impossible to ignore.

I repeat. Women do not place their value on their looks. Their whole self concept is not wrapped around their looks. They are NOT "taught firstorto [sic] be pretty" and men are not "taught to first appreciate their prettiness." I don't know who is teaching your kids in Canada or what kind of parents most are, but I don't think you're so many light years behind the U.S. that this is what is being "first taught" to either boys or girls.

It's especially interesting to suggest that girls are "only valued for their looks" because many people these days claim that studies prove that schools actually favor girls in their curriculum and boys are falling behind as a result. Schools and society encourage girls to enter math and science professions, to become president of the United States! - not to rely on "being pretty." Furthermore, as I already pointed out, many white males feel as if THEY are the ones being discriminated against in the work world.

As for girls' costumes, I've seen many a super hero along with princess costumes, and "career" costumes are available as well as tv characters, pirates, Gothic, horror, etc. Same as for boys. To see a "nurse" costume as somehow submissive speaks volumes of your mindset. Nurses are very powerful people and many work on their own, with no "doctor" as a boss - or perhaps working for a female doctor. My doctor, my dentist, my nurses are ALL females. But I'm sure they don't place their value on their professions, their accomplishments, but rather their looks.

As for the "knight" costumes for boys - do boys even know what a knight is these days?? Seriously. Men do not act like "knights." If that's truly what women are looking for, there have got to be millions of disappointed women in our societies. Placing that expectation on boys, to be a "knight," is ALSO sexist, so thankfully boys don't grow up with the idea that they are responsible for women - as girls grow up being asked "what do you want to be when you grow up?" Girls grow up expecting they will enter the work force - and not just until some man "saves them." Most boys these days grow up expecting their wives will work too.

Not only do girls grow up being told that they can be anything they want to be - the law supports it, it does not prohibit it, forbid it. I suggest some look up the meaning of "oppression." To even suggest that women are "oppressed" in our societies is totally out of touch with reality.

As for this: "We characterize men in roles where they are superior to women and where women's only hope is to be attractive enough to gain the affections of a man who can save her" - I honestly wonder what world you are living it. Seriously. And then Black Dog comes along and insults ME for challenging this Dark Ages take on what life is like for females in our society; how females feel in our society. You, as men, try to tell me, a woman, what it's all about for women - and then insult me when I point out how doing so is sexist. My God. The irony.

Girls grow up playing football, basketball, soccer, competing in sports that have nothing to do with their looks or "sexuality" - and they are encouraged to do so and they desire to be good at it.

As I've said repeatedly - the value of looks in our society is not non-existent, but it's not what society places the value of women on and it's NOT what women place their value on. Furthermore, MEN are judged and valued for their looks too. AGAIN. Men are at the gym working on their abs and at home trying to regrow their lost hair and trying to make themselves attractive to females just as much are women are desiring to be attractive to men. Men are trying to prove their masculinity even as they are being told that it's ok to cry. They are buying Viagra by the truckload to live up to their 'sexual expectations' and they are hoping that their "Johnson" lives up to female expectations. The 'sexual expectations' aren't just placed on women; women are not singled out and 'judged.' Our societies put the same pressures on men and women equally. AND THAT HAS BEEN MY POINT. If both feel some need to live up to society's expectations, the other sex's expectations, women are not singled out, much less oppressed.

So again. Our 'societies' place a certain value on the looks et al of BOTH males and females and both feel a certain need, to a certain extent, to live up to it. It's not one-sided; women are not oppressed. To insist to me that they are, as I say that's not the way it is in my world, IS sexist. I don't see "it's great that you don't feel that way" in response. Oh no. You go on trying your best to convince me that society only values me for my looks - and then insult me when I call you on it. It truly boggles the mind.

Edited December 17, 2011 by American Woman

[cybercoma]

I see you still didn't watch the 8 minute Miss Representation trailer, nor did you go through the links provided on their website that explains the argument. I'm not even going to bother replying to the arguments in your post, which I've addressed and shown to be wrong many times in this thread already. If you don't care about the ways that women are oppressed in your society that's fine, but for you to sit here and claim that it's not happening is not only wrong, it reinforces those attitudes. By ignoring the clear fact that women are not treated equally in our society and the way that they are treated is indeed as being inferior to men (rather than equal, not superior), you are allowing the kinds of insidious sexism that exists today to continue.