Tax cuts for the wealthy have not brought economic growth

[blueblood]

Who set up the system of cheap and easy credit? Who benefits from a system where people live beyond their means? Who, in short, sells all the crap that people are told to buy?

Govt policy, why else are interest rates so bloody low? Nobody benefits from it because in the long term it affects everyone. People have a choice to save their money or wallow in debt buying crap. Save the sob story.

[blueblood]

So it's everyone's fault but those who reap the staggering profits from the system.

Gotcha.

What's wrong with somebody making a profit, they're following the rules put in place and economic trends at that period in time. At least those making the profits are providing something that the consumer wants or they would be broke. Not only that, they spend, save, invest, and pay taxes on said profits.

[cybercoma]

Joe average had a job, but his spending habits didn't reflect his income. Why else is the average north American buried in debt? Do people really need 2 flat screens in a house, that vacation every year, a new car, a giant house?

And your guys contempt for the 1% will keep you in the poor house, have fun!

It's one thing if a few individuals are irresponsible with credit, but you have to begin to wonder why the problem is so widespread. It seems to suggest that there's something beyond simple personal irresponsibility behind this need to consume oneself into debt.

[cybercoma]

And it wouldn't be so without the govt interfering in the market with policies encouraging consumption rather than production, and fooling around with interest rates, and not providing mandatory financial education in the ciriculum.

So you're against government interference at the beginning of your sentence, but for it by the end. Interesting.

[cybercoma]

By the way, you know what happens when people stop spending, right?

[blueblood]

It's one thing if a few individuals are irresponsible with credit, but you have to begin to wonder why the problem is so widespread. It seems to suggest that there's something beyond simple personal irresponsibility behind this need to consume oneself into debt.

Nope, it's many people acting irresponsibly. The problem is widespread because the western world has an entitlement mentality. Do we need to absolutely own a house, do we need this, do we need that. The problem is that those with loads of credit and debt are artificially inflating prices on things that shouldn't be expensive in the first place, and at the same time causes other people to go into debt just to keep up. And what's worse is those people with credit aren't producing anything of value to back it up.

[blueblood]

So you're against government interference at the beginning of your sentence, but for it by the end. Interesting.

Govt shouldn't be fooling around with interest rates, shouldn't be having policies that encourage consumption, and if theyre going to be in the education business, teach something that's actually useful.

[blueblood]

By the way, you know what happens when people stop spending, right?

Prices fall and goods become more affordable. The Americans finally have their choice of many cheap houses to live in.

[Black Dog]

What's wrong with somebody making a profit, they're following the rules put in place and economic trends at that period in time. At least those making the profits are providing something that the consumer wants or they would be broke. Not only that, they spend, save, invest, and pay taxes on said profits.

So we're clear: the wealthy are merely giving the people what they want, but when the people actually buy those things, they're irresponsible idiots.

[jacee]

Blueblood is in favour of anything that makes him money but has great contempt for those who make that possible.

Money is sacred. People are dispensable.

That's the creed of the 1% who have forgotten that the wellbeing of humanity is the purpose and money is just a tool.

Extreme inequality in the distribution of means is a perversion of purpose.

[cybercoma]

The problem is widespread because the western world has an entitlement mentality.

You're reifying the West. Society doesn't think or feel.

Do we need to absolutely own a house, do we need this, do we need that. The problem is that those with loads of credit and debt are artificially inflating prices on things that shouldn't be expensive in the first place, and at the same time causes other people to go into debt just to keep up. And what's worse is those people with credit aren't producing anything of value to back it up.

Here you're just repeating what you've already said.

[blueblood]

So we're clear: the wealthy are merely giving the people what they want, but when the people actually buy those things, they're irresponsible idiots.

When they buy those things when they can't afford it they're irresponsible idiots. For example if a person with a job has 10k in a checking account and is saving for retirement in another account and is up to date on all their bills wants to go on a vacation, then have at it. If another person has a job, is living paycheck to paycheck, swimming in credit card debt, and has no savings for retirement, and is behind on the bills, then a vacation isn't a good idea.

If you can't afford it then put it down.

[cybercoma]

Prices fall and goods become more affordable. The Americans finally have their choice of many cheap houses to live in.

All hell will break loose if there's deflation. When corporate profits take a hit from lower prices, they will cut back from the most flexible input: labour. As people lose their jobs, investors will start getting edgy and pull out. Unemployment... that's a good thing? You think people will have many cheap houses and lots of choices without a job?

edit: typo

Edited December 12, 2011 by cybercoma

[blueblood]

Blueblood is in favour of anything that makes him money but has great contempt for those who make that possible.

Money is sacred. People are dispensable.

That's the creed of the 1% who have forgotten that the wellbeing of humanity is the purpose and money is just a tool.

Extreme inequality in the distribution of means is a perversion of purpose.

My customers are overseas in Japan, china and the middle east. The richer and better off those guys are, the better off I am. You don't do anything to improve my financial situation and in fact are one that is a burden on it.

I have great contempt for those who think they are entitled to my money, but don't provide me with any goods/services to buy.

Are you proposing that we don't improve the lives of people around the world through investment, so you guys out east can live like royalty again?

[blueblood]

All hell will break loose if there's deflation. When corporate profits take a hit from lower prices, they will cut back from the most flexible input: labour. As people lose their jobs, investors will start getting edgy and pull out. Unemployment... that's a good thing? You think people will have many cheap houses and lots of choices without a job?

edit: typo

No it won't. The only people that don't benefit from deflation are the big corporations that you guys trash on a regular basis.

If people don't have no jobs and no credit/debt, what happens to demand for products that those companies produce? It drops. Do you think companies are going to churn out products for no buyers? No prices will drop to clear out inventory to a point where people can buy them. You can't have constant growth like that forever, and every so often a correction has to happen.

The best way to stimulate demand is to drop prices.

[cybercoma]

Deflation doesn't lead to increased unemployment? You miss class that day in ECON 101?

[blueblood]

Deflation doesn't lead to increased unemployment? You miss class that day in ECON 101?

Do you only think of things in the short term? That's a big problem in itself, people only see things in the short term and want quick fixes; unfortunately that creates even bigger problems down the road,

[jacee]

My customers are overseas in Japan, china and the middle east. The richer and better off those guys are, the better off I am.

You don't do anything to improve my financial situation and in fact are one that is a burden on it.

Really? How so?

I have great contempt for those who think they are entitled to my money, but don't provide me with any goods/services to buy.

Thanks, no. I have no use for your dangerous genetically modified corn products.

Are you proposing that we don't improve the lives of people around the world through investment, so you guys out east can live like royalty again?

I'm proposing that it isn't your money until you've paid a fairer share of taxes to support those who have no jobs and need retraining, are disabled, elderly, illiterate, etc.

I'm proposing that it's not our job to "improve your financial situation.

I'm proposing that society's economic predators be treated as the criminals they are.

A human conscience cannot be manufactured. Those born without one are the destroyers of human society and a danger to the public.

Extreme wealth accumulation, beyond assets required to do business, should be considered proceeds of crime and be confiscated, first targeting all monies stashed UNTAXED in offshore tax havens.

Edited December 12, 2011 by jacee

[cybercoma]

It will only change with violence. No lasting social change ever occurred peacefully.

[dre]

No it won't. The only people that don't benefit from deflation are the big corporations that you guys trash on a regular basis.

If people don't have no jobs and no credit/debt, what happens to demand for products that those companies produce? It drops. Do you think companies are going to churn out products for no buyers? No prices will drop to clear out inventory to a point where people can buy them. You can't have constant growth like that forever, and every so often a correction has to happen.

The best way to stimulate demand is to drop prices.

No it won't. The only people that don't benefit from deflation are the big corporations that you guys trash on a regular basis.

Thats not even close to being true. Both inflation and deflation hurt almost everone in the economy. Deflation can cause widespread financial failure in the system and literally bring it to its knees.

[cybercoma]

[dre]

No it won't. The only people that don't benefit from deflation are the big corporations that you guys trash on a regular basis.

If people don't have no jobs and no credit/debt, what happens to demand for products that those companies produce? It drops. Do you think companies are going to churn out products for no buyers? No prices will drop to clear out inventory to a point where people can buy them. You can't have constant growth like that forever, and every so often a correction has to happen.

The best way to stimulate demand is to drop prices.

Yeah prices drop as excess inventory builds. Thats PART of the story. The other part is that all businesses have a harder time servicing their debt... this causes bank failures, and those bank failures cause all kinds of other failures.

The best way to manage an economy is to try and avoid both deflation and inflation.

[dre]

Human kind cannot function in a system with free money, it destroys incentive to produce and in the end everyone is worse off than before, it's been tried and failed over and over again.

Then stop supporting the "free money" system.

[Hydraboss]

I'm proposing that it isn't your money until you've paid a fairer share of taxes to support those who have no jobs and need retraining, are disabled, elderly, illiterate, etc.

I pay far more in taxes than you will ever earn. The rest of the people are not my responsibility. I may choose to donate heavily (which I do) but I will not be coerced into it. The level of taxation in this country is already "criminal".

I'm proposing that it's not our job to "improve your financial situation.

You don't have a job - that's correct. But as long as you have to buy duct tape to build your little protest sign, you're improving someone's financial situation.

I'm proposing that society's economic predators be treated as the criminals they are.

Go ahead and try. See where that gets you. Nowhere, I'll bet.

A human conscience cannot be manufactured. Those born without one are the destroyers of human society and a danger to the public.

Danger to the public? Really? Well then, please go ahead and try to deal with me directly little one. What are you going to do, sing protest songs in my ears REALLY loud until my eardrums rupture? Is that part of your grand plan?

Extreme wealth accumulation, beyond assets required to do business, should be considered proceeds of crime and be confiscated, first targeting all monies stashed UNTAXED in offshore tax havens.

Again, come and take it. You want a revolution? Times up - start one. Only, remember, if you start a fight, be prepared to finish it. My "kind" will not lose...you will. So get to it; no sense dawdling.

It will only change with violence. No lasting social change ever occurred peacefully.

And the quotes above this show where the morons that start the violence will come from. Idiotic beliefs. Good thing they'll be too baked on weed to bother attacking.

[dre]

I pay far more in taxes than you will ever earn. The rest of the people are not my responsibility. I may choose to donate heavily (which I do) but I will not be coerced into it. The level of taxation in this country is already "criminal".

You don't have a job - that's correct. But as long as you have to buy duct tape to build your little protest sign, you're improving someone's financial situation.

Go ahead and try. See where that gets you. Nowhere, I'll bet.

Danger to the public? Really? Well then, please go ahead and try to deal with me directly little one. What are you going to do, sing protest songs in my ears REALLY loud until my eardrums rupture? Is that part of your grand plan?

Again, come and take it. You want a revolution? Times up - start one. Only, remember, if you start a fight, be prepared to finish it. My "kind" will not lose...you will. So get to it; no sense dawdling.

And the quotes above this show where the morons that start the violence will come from. Idiotic beliefs. Good thing they'll be too baked on weed to bother attacking.

Danger to the public? Really? Well then, please go ahead and try to deal with me directly little one. What are you going to do, sing protest songs in my ears REALLY loud until my eardrums rupture? Is that part of your grand plan?

You and your "kind" are not the issue, and successful corporations and wealthy people are not the issue either.

Danger to the public? Really? Well then, please go ahead and try to deal with me directly little one. What are you going to do, sing protest songs in my ears REALLY loud until my eardrums rupture?

You dont have to take wild guesses about that. Just read a little bit about history to see what happens when inequity in society reaches a certain point. Theres all kinds of different things that can happen.

The british aristocracy was brought down by stripping the wealthy of much of their direct influence over government (the removal of the veto from the house of lords) and with land taxes. A relatively peaceful affair.

The french and russian revolutions got pretty ugly and violent.

The robber barons were broken up with taxation, and so were the railroad tycoons.

In a democracy extreme wealth concentration can lead to the erosion of private propery rights. For example the election of hugo Chavez in Venezuela... where a large underclass living in tent cities in abject poverty voted for the first guy who campaigned on real wealth redistribution.

These "rebalancings" can happen a lot of different ways, but history shows they are pretty much a forgone conclusion.

So dispite your silly "Bring it on!!!" bluster the picture in your head of the unwashed mob showing up to steal your money is nothing more than a rather simplistic caricature.

Edited December 12, 2011 by dre