Toronto-Danforth By-election

[Newfoundlander]

Read their platform.

And yes, this is about the TD byelection but why is it in the provincial politics section when this is a federal riding....

I'd probably agree with a good bit of it, but I will.

&

Because it's located in the province of Ontario.

[Evening Star]

deleted

Edited January 12, 2012 by Evening Star

[JCR]

Ok - I was kind of hoping for a dialogue on this topic though.

The topic is touched on in the FAQ section of libertarian.ca, but not in detail.

A good background on "Bleeding Heart Libertarianism" theory: http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2011/11/a-bleeding-heart-history-of-libertarian-thought-herbert-spencer/

Here is what the Ontario Libertarian Party has to say about healthcare in the province...

Time passes. Needs keep growing by leaps and bounds. They become difficult to satisfy. Meanwhile, the taxpayers reach their limit of tolerance for demands to hand over ever more of their money to satisfy the wishes of others. No more can be extracted from them. The easy times are over.

There are now many problems with government health care in Ontario. Notwithstanding high taxes and enormous expenditures, there are shortages of medical staff and facilities, poor allocation and distribution of resources, and inadequate patient care. Treatments are often available only after long waits if at all. These are the consequences of unrestrained demand for “free” services coupled with central bureaucratic planning and government mandated supply restrictions.

In spite of all the problems, 35 years of government health care makes it difficult for many to envision that this important service can be provided without any government involvement whatsoever. Nonetheless, getting government entirely out of health care is the only way to provide the greatest access for the most people to the best available treatment at the lowest possible cost. That is the policy of the Ontario Libertarian Party.

The old-line political parties proclaim themselves able to preserve Medicare in its current form. No matter what they say, you can expect further deterioration to occur while they continue to spend more money attempting to address the scandalous issues which happen to receive media attention. Furthermore, health care will become increasingly privatized in the near future. There is no other way to provide the services. Even now, many who can afford it are forgoing the lower quality service in Canada and are choosing to receive medical treatment in the U.S. To relieve pressure on local facilities, the Ontario government is already sending patients there for treatment.

A mix of private and government medicine will approximate what now exists south of the border. U.S. medical care is probably the best in the world. However, it is very expensive and often unaffordable for people who are ineligible for government assistance and do not have health insurance. Contrary to commonly held belief, high cost and inaccessibility results primarily because American health care is not even close to being free market medical care, with governments in the U.S. being very much involved in controlling and paying for it.

Ontario will begin to have competitively priced, widely accessible, high quality health care the day there is no Minister of Health. A number of outcomes are predictable. Firstly, all the taxes needed to support government health care will be entirely eliminated. Ontario residents will have more money in their pockets. They will then be able to afford to pay for their own medical care and will cease being supplicants begging government to give back some of their own money for this purpose. Another predictable outcome is that variously structured private health insurance plans will spring up to provide protection against disastrous major illnesses. Unlike the U.S. system, the cost of insurance will not be boosted by government laws forcing extended coverage upon insurance companies for political reasons. Those who wish to obtain insurance for more than major medical catastrophes will be able to do so at additional expense.

Once government is out of the picture, there will be less frivolous use of medical services. When the benefit of a service is received and the cost paid by one and the same person, it is less likely there will be abuse. If privately owned insurance companies are paying, they will protect themselves from having their money spent without good reason. At the same time, competition and the need to preserve and improve their businesses will result in a reasonable balance being struck between heavy-handed coverage restriction and too easy payment of benefits. For similar reasons, there will be less health care fraud. Governments simply do not have the same interest in protecting money under their control that you and private insurers have.

A Libertarian government will eliminate any requirement for government licensing of physicians, medical treatment facilities, or other medical care providers. The existing government licensing monopoly reduces competition in medicine by erecting needless barriers preventing or impeding entry into the medical services field. Getting rid of these will lead to increased supply of medical personnel, less costly health care services, and more innovation. Private certification will let us know whether someone is qualified to provide medical treatment.

Dismantling government health cannot be done overnight. A transition period will be necessary. This could take the form of government continuing to pay for medical services for the elderly while requiring co-payment on an increas­ing scale as age decreases. Another possibility is to have the government continue to pay for more serious illnesses with the level of payments decreasing over time. Eventually everyone will be respon­sible for the full cost of their own health care.

What about the poor or the unlucky? This question is often asked. An important Libertarian objective is freeing people to create abundance. Abundance cannot be achieved in the absence of free markets. Where there is abundance people will be more benevolent to those who need help. Where there is scarcity benevolence is less likely and there will be many more poor people needing charitable assistance. Government meddling in health care has led to scarcity. A truly free market in medical services will lead to greater abundance which will benefit everybody including those unable to provide for themselves.

[Newfoundlander]

Seamus O'Regan is supposedly one of the people being considered by the Liberals to run in Toronto-Danforth.

http://www.thestar.com/article/1113451--tim-harper-ndp-defection-looming-byelection-good-news-for-stephen-harper

[August1991]

Seamus O'Regan is supposedly one of the people being considered by the Liberals to run in Toronto-Danforth.

Huh?

The by-election in Toronto-Danforth to replace Jack Layton will be called within the next couple of months, I think it could be a very interesting race without Layton. Claire Prashaw, Layton's constituency assistant, has come forward for the NDP while former Liberal candidate Andrew Lang wants the nomination again. I've heard the Conservatives have been calling people in the riding looking for support, but I don't know if they have a candidate in mind.

Why is a Newfoundlander so interested in the election of a federal Liberal in Toronto?

Frankly, if I were a federal Liberal, I would worry more about money, and knowing more about my potential voters in Alberta.

[Michael Hardner]

A good background on "Bleeding Heart Libertarianism" theory: ...

What about the poor or the unlucky? This question is often asked. An important Libertarian objective is freeing people to create abundance. Abundance cannot be achieved in the absence of free markets. Where there is abundance people will be more benevolent to those who need help. Where there is scarcity benevolence is less likely and there will be many more poor people needing charitable assistance. Government meddling in health care has led to scarcity. A truly free market in medical services will lead to greater abundance which will benefit everybody including those unable to provide for themselves.

My question about welfare, though, still stands.

I'm guessing either your party doesn't have a transition plan (since they won't be elected anyway), or won't publish it, or you just don't know it.

The point above about the poor and abundance is just theoretical. We can have abundance and poverty co-existing - in fact we have had this. Benevolence just doesn't provide as much as forced taxation.

But I'm getting dragged into a conversation about libertarian theory, which I have already been through many times before as have you, I'm sure.

I'll ask again - is there a transition plan for welfare, and if so what is it ?

[Newfoundlander]

Huh?

Why is a Newfoundlander so interested in the election of a federal Liberal in Toronto?

That's where he lives.

[punked]

Seamus O'Regan is supposedly one of the people being considered by the Liberals to run in Toronto-Danforth.

http://www.thestar.com/article/1113451--tim-harper-ndp-defection-looming-byelection-good-news-for-stephen-harper

No way that guy gives up his job and most likely career to run in a very tough race. You might not know this about the Liberals but the only time they leave cushy jobs to run is when they are promised a ridding they wont have to compete in like Iggy.

[cybercoma]

Ya because that's exactly what this country needs, another corporate ass kissing right wing party..

It actually is what this country needs. Split the right. Have at it.

[cybercoma]

I believe the traditional left-right dichotomy to be misleading when applied to libertarianism. While Libertarians support reducing barriers to freedom in many sectors, the goal of this is to bolster social liberties and well-being. For example, we'd like to see a huge reduction in wasteful spending and much reduced size of government, but we're also against the government legislating morality. Libertarians also support stiff penalties for those who violate the rights of others, whether they be individuals, corporations or governments. We believe we need to hold the leaders of large corporations personally responsible for the messes they make - be it in banking, government, environment or scandals. It's hard to deny that there is a lack of accountability across the board. Though we differ on the means, I think libertarians have a lot in common with left-leaning thought in terms of it's goals.

What spending do you find wasteful?

[JCR]

What spending do you find wasteful?

The war in Afganistan appears to be quite wasteful on many levels. Diplomacy and trade restrictions are powerful tools that we should rely on more heavily. Canada should return to being a peace keeping nation, and not continue down this path of war mongering.

The bureaucracy that eats up precious resources and prevents end-users from accessing the basic help they require.Non-governmental not for profits have the best rate of return on helping end-users. Let's cut-out the bureaucracy and encourage those small, local programs that actually work instead of large, wasteful central planning that has a one-size-fits-all agenda.

As a first step, perhaps we could stop criminalizing mental illness, addiction and poverty and take measures to change the criminal justice system by implementing an evidence based approach to corrections. We need fewer laws, not more prisons. Harper's “tough on crime” legislation has been demonstrated to be expensive and ineffective. Resources that could be much more effectively used for the prevention of crime are being directed toward exponentially more expensive band-aid solutions that only aggravate the situation. Policy based on fear that seeks to legislate morality is doomed to fail. It's time have a responsible and rational discussion about how to address the issues of addiction, poverty and mental illness in a way that does not line the pockets of drug dealers, pimps and gang members. Though we believe in harsh consequences for individuals, corporations and governments that violate the rights of others, too many of our laws punish people for victimless crimes and create circumstances that aggravate many social inequalities.

[Newfoundlander]

No way that guy gives up his job and most likely career to run in a very tough race. You might not know this about the Liberals but the only time they leave cushy jobs to run is when they are promised a ridding they wont have to compete in like Iggy.

I guess he'd take a leave of absence like everybody else who runs.

[Newfoundlander]

The Liberals have at least one candidate. Toronto businessman Grant Gordon is running for the nomination.

http://m.facebook.com/GrantGordonLiberal?_rdr

[punked]

I guess he'd take a leave of absence like everybody else who runs.

You don't get to do that in the Media once you run your career is over. Do you not know how these things work? Seriously he wont run because if he does he wont be able to be a broadcaster it is why Chris Mathews didn't run in he states.

Edited January 13, 2012 by punked

[Newfoundlander]

You don't get to do that in the Media once you run your career is over. Do you not know how these things work? Seriously he wont run because if he does he wont be able to be a broadcaster it is why Chris Mathews didn't run in he states.

Nobody can be denied a leave of absence from their job for politics. I highly doubt he'd run but his name is out there.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Newfoundlander

[punked]

Nobody can be denied a leave of absence from their job for politics. I highly doubt he'd run but his name is out there.

Doesn't matter his contract would never get renewed. He could become a commentator of some sort but he would lose his wide appeal and thus his network would have to can him. How many media types have you seen run in Canada and gone back to their jobs? I know I have been on Candidate search committees and asked countless of these people, the only ones you get are the ones who are close to retirement and decide that this is their chance.

He wont run because it would kill his career. I am not going to say if that is right or wrong I am just telling you how it is out there. You'll learn.

[Newfoundlander]

Doesn't matter his contract would never get renewed. He could become a commentator of some sort but he would lose his wide appeal and thus his network would have to can him. How many media types have you seen run in Canada and gone back to their jobs? I know I have been on Candidate search committees and asked countless of these people, the only ones you get are the ones who are close to retirement and decide that this is their chance.

He wont run because it would kill his career. I am not going to say if that is right or wrong I am just telling you how it is out there. You'll learn.

You're telling me your speculation, I don't necessarily disagree with you. Anyways I don't really care that much.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Newfoundlander

[punked]

You're telling me your speculation, I don't necessarily disagree with you. Anyways I don't really care that much.

Its not speculation the only way this guy would run is if he was given a cushy guaranteed seat. It is the Liberal way.

[Newfoundlander]

Its not speculation the only way this guy would run is if he was given a cushy guaranteed seat. It is the Liberal way.

It's not speculation that you're saying what Seamus O'Regan will or won't do? Time to get the dictionary.

[punked]

It's not speculation that you're saying what Seamus O'Regan will or won't do? Time to get the dictionary.

I am telling you right now it aint happening, it is the oldest trick in politics say some big name is "thinking about it". When they aren't to up the profile of the race to try and drum someone else out for the nomination. If anything unless it happens it makes the Liberals in that ridding look desperate. Don't bite on these things it makes your team look weak Newfoundlander.

[Newfoundlander]

I am telling you right now it aint happening, it is the oldest trick in politics say some big name is "thinking about it". When they aren't to up the profile of the race to try and drum someone else out for the nomination. If anything unless it happens it makes the Liberals in that ridding look desperate. Don't bite on these things it makes your team look weak Newfoundlander.

Like I've said it's not my team. I highly doubt he'd run to but it's all speculation on mine and your part. Looking at the NDP candidate, and ho many people voted in the nomination, Seamus wouldn't have to hard of a time winning the seat. The NDP weren't able to come up with much of a candidate so a high profile Liberal should be able to take it, if they are actually having the renewal they let on.

[gonzo fubar]

Rhino reply to wannabee Lib candidate in Trawna-Danforth

Explanatory note: Grant Gordon, who is hoping to become the Liberal candidate in the upcoming Trawna-Danforth byelection, has foolishly decided to take a shot at the beast Rhinoceros.

Interestingly, Mr. Gordon is, at the same time, asking Rhinos to support his bid by joining the Liberal Trawna-Danforth riding association and voting for him. Here is Mr. Gordon’s overture to Rhinos:

“Your party is a pathetic, hollow shell of what it once was. Your late founder, Cornelius the First, that visionary rhino form the Granby Zoo must be rolling in his grave. Where are you guys?!! If you help get me on the ballot and I win, I promise to give every family in Trawna-Danforth a goat.”

Mr. Gordon is also proselytizing NDPers, Tories, Greens and non-voters. His messages to them can be found here:

http://www.keygordon.com/eblasts/grant_for_liberals/grant-liberal-nomination.html

Ahem

“Your party is a pathetic, hollow shell of what it once was.” That’s RICH, coming from a Liberal! Your party is so loathed that Canadians prefer a Harper majority government;. so loathed that the NDP are the official opposition. So much for being Canada’s, “natural governing party..”

Like you Liberals, we Rhinos are not enjoying the public support we once did. Unlike you Liberals, we Rhinos still have our dignity.

Your admission that the NDP will “wipe up” in the upcoming byelection is refreshing. That kind of honesty is commendable. Alas, for you, it is the kind of honesty that will assure that you will not win the Liberal nomination, now or ever.

But… maybe I am wrong. You Liberals did recently vote, overwhelmingly, to decriminalize marijuana. Maybe, just maybe, enough Trawna-Danforth Liberals will light up a fatty and vote for you. Well, it may take more than one fatty for uptight Liberals to lighten up enough to give you the nod. Should that happen, we Rhinos will be the first to congratulate you.

Given your honesty, and your acknowledgment that there is a place in electoral politics for humour, you might make a decent Rhino candidate. You may well be a closet Rhino. But, if you are to come out of the closet and carry the Rhino banner, you need to know something about Rhino before you earn your horn.

First of all, Cornelius the First was not the founder of the Parti Rhinoceros Party. The Party was founded - in 1963, years before the birth of Cornelius - by Dr. Jacques Ferron..

You should also know that the Liberals and Rhinos have buckets of bad blood between us, going back to the 1960s.

It was Pierre Trudeau who ordered that Cornelius be sent into exile at the San Diego Zoo, in 1981.

So pissed were the Liberals over the Turner vs. Turner prank in the 1988 election that they encouraged Brian Mulroney to rape the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to de-register the Rhino Party in 1993.

That treason was, in part, avenged when the Rhinos tricked Jean the Baptist Chretien into spraying Rhino piss on the Liberal Party faithful in the 1993 election.

There is much, much more for you to learn, Mr. Gordon, before you are fit to carry the Rhino banner. Fortunately, for the first time ever, the complete history of the fabled Rhino Party has been written and published, by my good self..

You can buy a copy of RHINO HISTORY, OTHER LIES AND ALL THAT JAZZ at Amazon.com

http://www.amazon.com/Rhino-History-Other-Lies-ebook/dp/B006NLAPKA

You can see the book trailer on Youtube

Being benevolent beasts, the Rhino Illuminati have authorized me to offer you a free copy of the mighty missive, if you have a sincere desire to enlighten yourself.

Since you almost certainly will not win the nomination race, and since you almost certainly are not fool enough to waste your time campaigning for a sure loser, you should have time to read the book before polling day.

If you are willing to commit to that arduous intellectual task (a fatty and a cold one will aid you greatly), we will be happy to announce you as our candidate the day after the election

Okay, dude, school’s out. Carry on.

GONZO FUBAR VAN RASPUTIN

Official Historian

(of the fabled)

Parti Rhinoceros Party

[punked]

Like I've said it's not my team. I highly doubt he'd run to but it's all speculation on mine and your part. Looking at the NDP candidate, and ho many people voted in the nomination, Seamus wouldn't have to hard of a time winning the seat. The NDP weren't able to come up with much of a candidate so a high profile Liberal should be able to take it, if they are actually having the renewal they let on.

480 Ballots cast is a respectable number in a nomination meeting sorry to tell you. I have seen contested high profile nominations like Halifax where Leslie won, which is very very similar to what is happening now. It was contested, it was for the former leaders seat and it use to be a Liberal strong hold. They had 500 ballots cast, she went on as a person from Ontario and who was an academic virtual unknown to win no problem in Halifax. Sorry you are going to have to do better then that because unlike some people who know very little about the history of electoral politics in this country I know a something.

Your wrong on this one. Keep cheering for the Liberals though so we all know you are a Liberal.

[Newfoundlander]

480 Ballots cast is a respectable number in a nomination meeting sorry to tell you. I have seen contested high profile nominations like Halifax where Leslie won, which is very very similar to what is happening now. It was contested, it was for the former leaders seat and it use to be a Liberal strong hold. They had 500 ballots cast, she went on as a person from Ontario and who was an academic virtual unknown to win no problem in Halifax. Sorry you are going to have to do better then that because unlike some people who know very little about the history of electoral politics in this country I know a something.

Your wrong on this one. Keep cheering for the Liberals though so we all know you are a Liberal.

The PC Party can get nearly 1300 people to vote in a nomination meeting a district of less then 7000 and there's only 400 members, out of 75,000 electors, in Jack Layton's old riding who bothered to vote for their next candidate. Yeah that sounds just wonderful.

[punked]

The PC Party can get nearly 1300 people to vote in a nomination meeting a district of less then 7000 and there's only 400 members, out of 75,000 electors, in Jack Layton's old riding who bothered to vote for their next candidate. Yeah that sounds just wonderful.

Dartmouth ColeHarbour has an NDP Nomination meeting where some 2000 people voted in 2004. They lost that election.Nomination turn out Don't mean squat. Seriously it is like you have never been involved in politics.