Argentina launches naval campaign to isolate Falkland Islands

[Guest Derek L]

I do not know enough about British navy history to say the above. I do know it was a complex operation.

I do know they did a lot of planning and key to their strategy was pre-striking with submarines.

For sure, the maritime exclusion zone and the clearly defined rules of engagement, from the outset, defined how the war would be fought and won…….And as you said, subs were key (Fittingly enough, Admiral Woodward, was once a nuclear attack boat skipper that went through the Royal Navy’s Perisher sub program, the “Top Gun” for submarine commanders) and the early sinking of the Argentinean cruiser, the General Belgrano, by a RN SSN sent the tone for the war……..essentially, the Argies surface fleet went home.

Much has been made about the sinking of the Belgrano, with many thinking from the political Left it was a sign of “bloodlust” and/or a political gambit by Maggie……….

They couldn’t be farther from the truth, for the Belgrano surface group (The cruiser and two thought to be exocet armed destroyers) to the South and the Argie carrier battle group to the North (armed with French Super Etendard, exocet carrying, attack aircraft) posed and very really threat to both the British naval task group and the ensuing wagon train made up of Royal Fleet auxiliaries and dozens of ships seconded from trade (Including two Cruise liners, the QE2 & Canberra, both carrying thousands of British soldiers). If they could have positioned themselves between the two groups of British ships, the could have wreaked havoc on not only the Royal Navy and the British psyche, but had disastrous consequences for NATO forces in the Atlantic……..

The pincer movement planned by the Argie Admiral, though to many even within Naval circles, sounding a flight of fancy for the Argies to do it against a more modern Navy,was the near same manoeuvre carried out by Admiral Woodward a year prior during a NATO exercise in the Med, in which he manoeuvred his later Falklands flagship, the HMS Glamorgan through the protective ring of USN frigates, destroyers and cruisers, into (what was later declared by the NATO exercise judges) snap-shot range of the aircraft carrier USS Coral Sea, though it was left to question as to if the Glamorgan’s own Exocet missiles and two 4.5 inch guns would have sunk the Coral Sea, the lone Destroyer commanded by Woodward would have most certainly received a deserving “Mission kill” of the Coral Sea, meaning during wartime, the carrier would not have been able to conduct flight operations….

Sandy Woodward was/is a modern Naval genius.

I have read more about World War Two navy battles than anything else.

I will always admire any merchant marine on their suicide missions to bring supplies from Canada to Britain.

Maybe one of those unsung merchant Captains gets my salute and also I man I met personally and got to know

in Toronto who was a merchant marine and skippered a tug boat forced to take barges of thousands of bodies

from prison and concentration camps and dump them in the ocean.

Sometimes wars are won by such people-no one notices their contributions.

Most certainly……..like the quote of the butterfly flapping it’s wings….

I doubt we will see such a thing again. Other than Thatcher its hard to believe anyone would risk such a

distant sea war in this day and age. She was friggin nutz to have done what she did. Guts or nuts. Close

in sound and meaning,

It's tuff to say, in the case of the United Kingdom and the Royal Navy, many thought the same well in the doldrums of the 1960s & 70s of what was (not so) Great Britain.....

Edited August 9, 2013 by Derek L

[Wilber]

With no fixed wing carriers until the first QE class comes on line in 2020, the Royal Navy would be hard pressed to do a repeat so they can't be caught napping like they were in 82.

[Guest Derek L]

With no fixed wing carriers until the first QE class comes on line in 2020, the Royal Navy would be hard pressed to do a repeat so they can't be caught napping like they were in 82.

Therein lies the difference……..the Argentines don’t have the capacity, nor capability to attempt a repeat of ‘82 today.……simply put, the (smallish) forces today based in the Falklands, could more then readily handle the Argentineans if they attempted such a move.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Derek L

[Rue]

I defer to you Derek. I read a bit as to what you are saying about the pincer movement, etc.

[Guest American Woman]

I've been to the Falklands and was told that the beaches/area around Port Stanley were - and still are - heavily mined. The British didn't approach that way as expected - they came in from the other side of the island, which was basically unprotected.

[Wilber]

What did you think of it? Hope to get there next winter. The son of an old school friend of my mother's was a RAF Harrier pilot shot down by ground fire near Goose Green. He survived and was picked up by a group of Paras.

[Guest American Woman]

What did you think of it? Hope to get there next winter. The son of an old school friend of my mother's was a RAF Harrier pilot shot down by ground fire near Goose Green. He survived and was picked up by a group of Paras.

I absolutely loved it. It's beautiful in such a unique way. There are so many white sand beach coves, and penguins - gotta love the penguins! - and sheep farms. There are no trees to speak of, so you can see for miles - the landscape is quite rugged. Still lots of landmines in some areas, a reminder of the war. Loved the pubs, too, and the people that we met were great. Port Stanley is beautiful - loved the architecture and gardens, very British, of course, and there are a few shipwrecks still visible, as well as the war memorial. I feel fortunate to have had the opportunity to visit. I'm sure you'll have an amazing trip if you get there next winter, and the ties you have with your mom's friend will likely make it even more memorable. I'm sure you'll totally love it!

Edited August 9, 2013 by American Woman

[-TSS-]

Didn't they recently have a referendum on independence and probably even the penguins voted for status quo?

[Guest Derek L]

I've been to the Falklands and was told that the beaches/area around Port Stanley were - and still are - heavily mined. The British didn't approach that way as expected - they came in from the other side of the island, which was basically unprotected.

Yep and a very arduous march it was after losing nearly all of their transport helicopters when the Atlantic Conveyor was sunk…….It also forced the British to land many of their troops directly onto the beach, which lead to the sinking of the Sir Galahad and the near sinking of the Sir Tristram and the loss of nearly 60 men, mostly from the Welsh Guard (The guards at Buckingham Palace) in Bluff Cove…

[Guest American Woman]

Yep and a very arduous march it was after losing nearly all of their transport helicopters when the Atlantic Conveyor was sunk…….It also forced the British to land many of their troops directly onto the beach, which lead to the sinking of the Sir Galahad and the near sinking of the Sir Tristram and the loss of nearly 60 men, mostly from the Welsh Guard (The guards at Buckingham Palace) in Bluff Cove…

Interesting. I was at Bluff Cove - wish I'd known a bit more of the history beforehand. I think it's worth pointing out that everyone I talked to in the Falklands spoke of Argentina with respect; or at least of Argentinians.

[Guest Derek L]

Interesting. I was at Bluff Cove - wish I'd known a bit more of the history beforehand. I think it's worth pointing out that everyone I talked to in the Falklands spoke of Argentina with respect; or at least of Argentinians.

Indeed, I know several (former) members of the Royal Navy and Royal Marines, and aside from the actions of the Argentinian's Navy Buzos Tacticos during the first day of the war (Snuck up on the Royal Marines barracks at night and sent handfuls of white phosphorus grenades in through the windows, followed by ventilating the joint with machine gun fire……luckily the barracks were empty) the consensus was that the largely near illiterate conscript army behaved themselves and treated the Islanders with the utmost respect (under the circumstances), with not one incident of rape, murder or looting during the entire occupation………Later in an interview for a documentary, for I believe NATGEO, the Captain of the General Belgrano even stated that the sinking of his ship was entirely justified, since he would have had no qualms sinking British shipping and he didn’t understand why many criticized Thatcher for it….

Edited August 11, 2013 by Derek L

[Guest Derek L]

Didn't they recently have a referendum on independence and probably even the penguins voted for status quo?

Yup, overwhelming majority to stay as is....

[jbg]

Much has been made about the sinking of the Belgrano, with many thinking from the political Left it was a sign of “bloodlust” and/or a political gambit by Maggie……….

Those kinds of issues are raised by people that want the West, specifically the English-speaking world and Israel, to fight the rest of the world with two hands tied behind their back. War is war. In this case Argentina invaded a set of islands that was geographically close, but whose people wanted nothing to do with Argentina.

My belief is that if you trigger war, expect a response. That response is not necessarily going to be measured. Nor should it be.

The same people attack Israel if they respond to missile attacks or suicide bombing with actions that do real damage to terror networks, such as "targeted assassinations" of leaders. Or even such defensive actions as erecting a wall. Many people for whatever reason want to level the playing field between more primitive and combative cultures and the West. It's an irrational impulse, one that leads to the same result as the barbarians vs. Rome.

[Guest Derek L]

Those kinds of issues are raised by people that want the West, specifically the English-speaking world and Israel, to fight the rest of the world with two hands tied behind their back. War is war. In this case Argentina invaded a set of islands that was geographically close, but whose people wanted nothing to do with Argentina.

My belief is that if you trigger war, expect a response. That response is not necessarily going to be measured. Nor should it be.

The same people attack Israel if they respond to missile attacks or suicide bombing with actions that do real damage to terror networks, such as "targeted assassinations" of leaders. Or even such defensive actions as erecting a wall. Many people for whatever reason want to level the playing field between more primitive and combative cultures and the West. It's an irrational impulse, one that leads to the same result as the barbarians vs. Rome.

Exactly, in my view, like you mentioned in relation to Israel, a nuclear power in both cases has demonstrated a measured military response to aggression.

[Guest Derek L]

And in other related news:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/gibraltar/10235937/Gibraltar-Spain-considers-joint-diplomatic-offensive-with-Argentina-over-Falkland-Islands.html

Spanish foreign minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo will use a trip to Buenos Aires next month to raise the possibility of forging a joint diplomatic offensive with the South American country over the disputed territories, sources told Spain's El Pais newspaper.

For some quick background over the recent tensions between the UK and Spain over the “Rock”:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/420884/Spain-vows-to-defend-its-interests-over-Gibraltar-as-Spanish-king-meets-with-Rajoy

In essence the Spanish economy is floundering, well that of tiny Gibraltar is flourishing………So two Hispanic nations seek domestic distraction by sticking a thumb in the eye of the United Kingdom……sounds par for the course.

And together they can make collectives asses of themselves on the world stage.....

[jbg]

And in other related news:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/gibraltar/10235937/Gibraltar-Spain-considers-joint-diplomatic-offensive-with-Argentina-over-Falkland-Islands.html

For some quick background over the recent tensions between the UK and Spain over the “Rock”:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/420884/Spain-vows-to-defend-its-interests-over-Gibraltar-as-Spanish-king-meets-with-Rajoy

In essence the Spanish economy is floundering, well that of tiny Gibraltar is flourishing………So two Hispanic nations seek domestic distraction by sticking a thumb in the eye of the United Kingdom……sounds par for the course.

And together they can make collectives asses of themselves on the world stage.....

I wish they were considered asses on the world stage. In the weird politics of the U.N. it is the successful nations that are considered asses or worse. The U.N. and the press generally fawn over basked cases or seek to create new ones. They have a problem with Western-style nations that are successful.

Nothing would have been wrong if Hong Kong remained "occupied" indefinitely. Instead their better people are now in Vancouver.

[Guest Derek L]

I wish they were considered asses on the world stage. In the weird politics of the U.N. it is the successful nations that are considered asses or worse. The U.N. and the press generally fawn over basked cases or seek to create new ones. They have a problem with Western-style nations that are successful.

Nothing would have been wrong if Hong Kong remained "occupied" indefinitely. Instead their better people are now in Vancouver.

In my view, Hong Kong versus Gibraltar and the Falklands is apples to oranges……..In the later cases, both have been British holdings for hundreds of years, the population in namely British, and in referendums, the overwhelming majority wants to maintain the status quo……

What I find ironic with Spain, is that they are recipients of bail-out money in the form of Pound Sterling……And the ~50 Euro border crossing fee that they are imposing is clearly against the rules of the European Union…….

[Rue]

The government at the time of the Falklands War was an immoral facist regime involved in horrible human rights crimes. I believe the defeat from this war psychologically humiliated the Latino macho military apperatus and was crucial in bringing back democracy to Argentina. I think that should be remembered too as well as the fact that Britain was standing up to the principle of majority rule on the Falkand Islands themselves. It was a double win for democracy.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Rue

[Guest Derek L]

The government at the time of the Falklands War was an immoral facist regime involved in horrible human rights crimes. I believe the defeat from this war psychologically humiliated the Latino macho military apperatus and was crucial in bringing back democracy to Argentina. I think that should be remembered too as well as the fact that Britain was standing up to the principle of majority rule on the Falkand Islands themselves. It was a double win for democracy.

And of course, off-shore, there are rich oil deposits......granted, largely unknown in '82.