What Being a Zionist Means

[dre]

From Israel, if the Palestinians take control.

If you read my opening post, the Jewish survival rate in Europe was decidedly underwhelming. Basically Europe turned into a human tomb for the Jews. Europe (with the partial exception of Great Britain) was a collection of countries, each with its own language, and an exclusive state religion. Most "legislation" until the later emergence of Parliaments was church-generated. Thus, people not part of the official religion had only such rights as the rulers chose to grant them. And that collection of rights changed repeatedly. This situation went from mediocre to bad to worse to deadly, as we all know. The Muslim world was frequently but not always a little better but even their the Jews' safety was fickle and subject to the whim of the local bey or sultan. Thus, without Israel, the Jews had better hope that nothing changes in the U.S. or Canada. Israel's survival is essential to the Jews' survival.

I don't see what is funny about a government protecting the interests of its people rather than trying to make things convenient or easy for other leaders.

As I pointed out already, zionism isnt about protecting the interests of the jewish people in fact it did great harm to many of them. Zionism is about protecting a nationalism vision, and zionists actively worked to cause Jews around the world to suffer with the hopes they would immigrate to Israel.

[olp1fan]

I see. Remind me never to ask you for any kind of advice.

I've never seen you before so that suits me

[Guest American Woman]

So what about the Jews currently living in the USA and Canada? Is their Jewish survival soley dependant on the fact that Israel exists? How did they last this long without being eliminated? And even if you account for their centuries long struggle and all the hardships and genocide the Jews experienced, they still exist!

Well, as long as they aren't all wiped off the face of the earth, what's the problem? - Why do they need a place of refuge? - So what if millions die? - Jewish survival isn't dependent on all of their survival.

Is that it? Because that's what it sounds like you are saying.

If you are a Jew living elsewhere and if Israel is wiped out tomorrow, are you still a Jew? Or is Zionism more or less dependant on Israel's survival? I think there needs to be a distinction here. Not all Jews see themselves as Zionists.

No, not all Jews are Zionists, but that doesn't make all Zionists wrong; and I do understand the desire for a Jewish state. I can understand why some would perceive it as a necessity. As I said, the U.S. and Canada certainly were not there offering them refuge during WWII. I imagine the lesson there is one must not rely on others - but rather look out for one's self.

Edited December 5, 2011 by American Woman

[Shwa]

From Israel, if the Palestinians take control.

Is there a plan for them to take control?

[dre]

As I said, the U.S. and Canada certainly were not there offering them refuge during WWII

Youre ignoring the fact that zionists were pushing these countries NOT to offer asylum to jews. Zionists were one of the reasons they needed a refuge in the first place.

Edited December 5, 2011 by dre

[Hudson Jones]

And how would that have been any better?

If I may: The fact that Palestine was not the first and only option, shows that the idea and continuous propaganda about the location of Israel being the 'eternal' homeland of the Jews is false.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Hudson Jones

[dre]

Zionism in many ways is actually an anti-jewish phisolophy. Early zionists actually encouraged other countries to turn jews away and collaborated with the Nazis to kick jews out of Germany. Zionists cared more about their new nationalist aspirations than they did about Judaism, and actually worked to promote anti-semitism around the world so that jews would have to move to Israel to escape it.

Ben Gurion said...

In other words he would rather have half of those jews die and the other half move to Israel then have them all live, and end up in North America, the USSR or Europe.

Heres a quote from Theodor Herzl's diary...

These people, obsessed with nationalism NOT Judaism helped destroy jewish communities around the world, and worked to foster distrust of jews in many nations.

In 1921 Jacob Klatzkin, a prominent political zionist in Germany wrote this to try to build suspicion and distrust of jews in Germany...

Chaim Weizman, who would later become the first Israeli president made the following statement in a public address.

Sounds like something Hitler or Gobels might say.

Zionist, Rabbi Klaussner, who was in charge of displaced persons presented a report before the Jewish American Conference on May 2nd, 1948 :

Bump! Nobody wants to touch this? JBQ? A-Dub?

[Bonam]

If I may: The fact that Palestine was not the first and only option, shows that the idea and continuous propaganda about the location of Israel being the 'eternal' homeland of the Jews is false.

Sorry but that makes no sense at all. The fact that some british politicians and diplomats briefly considered various locations for resettling jews somehow is supposed to take away from jews viewing israel as their homeland? Perhaps they should view the siberian oblast where stalin wanted to resettle them as their new homeland?

[Bonam]

Bump! Nobody wants to touch this? JBQ? A-Dub?

Look, zionism is simply the belief that jews should have their own state. History has shown that this is crucial for their safety. That some individual zionists made some controversial comments in their writings changes none of this. The views of all zionists are not one and the same, except that they all believe that a jewish state should exist.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Bonam

[dre]

Look, zionism is simply the belief that jews should have their own state. History has shown that this is crucial for their safety. That some individual zionists made some controversial comments in their writings changes none of this. The views of all zionists are not one and the same, except that they all believe that a jewish state should exist.

Except that these are the primary architects of the movement, and these are not just contraversial writings. And history shows us that the jews have been treated WORSE since the zionist movement started not better. Which makes sense given the fact they actively worked to make sure jews were persecuted in the countries they lived in.

One Cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland"

Izaak Greenbaum, Israels first Interior Minister.

Zionists were not just trying to save jews from persecution. They worked to promote the persecution in the first place that they were to be saved from and by doing so actually played a part in the holocaust.

But you already logged your predictable dismissal on page 1. Thats fine. Im just curious why no comment from the "proud zionist". Seems note worthy to me that the zionists founders worked to actively promote anti-semetism around the world, and encouraged countries to treat jews poorly.

We Jews are aliens… a foreign people in your midst and we… wish to stay that way. A Jew can never be a loyal German; whoever calls the foreign land his Fatherland is a traitor to the Jewish people

In retrospect, ya think thats the smartest thing for zionists to proclaim publically in Germany in 1921?

Look, zionism is simply the belief that jews should have their own state.

No it wasnt. It was also a plan on how to establish that state, and get jews to move there.

Edited December 6, 2011 by dre

[Bonam]

Except that these are the primary architects of the movement, and these are not just contraversial writings. And history shows us that the jews have been treated WORSE since the zionist movement started not better. Which makes sense given the fact they actively worked to make sure jews were persecuted in the countries they lived in.

Movements change. When Zionism was forming, nationalism was very prevalent in Europe, and the notion of killing and dying by the hundreds of thousands for the cause of one's nation was romanticized rather than abhorred. To judge early Zionists by their acceptance of this viewpoint is no different than judging early American leaders for their acceptance of slavery. It is a fallacy. Seeing the past through the moral filter of the present will always lead one to silly results.

As for how Jews were treated prior to the Zionist movement.. no, you're quite wrong, Jews were being massacred and exterminated the whole freaking time. The Holocaust was only the latest and greatest replay of the same sad tired old routine. The numbers paint the reality very clearly. 2000 years ago, Jews were ~5% of the world's population. Jews were always a relatively insular group, and most that were born Jews throughout history remained so. Prior to the Holocaust, Jews composed just ~0.5% of the world's population. Over that ~2000 year span, roughly 90% of Jews had been eradicated. The Holocaust merely brought that number up to 95%, with Jews comprising about 0.25% of the world's population since then.

But you already logged your predictable dismissal on page 1. Thats fine. Im just curious why no comment from the "proud zionist". Seems note worthy to me that the zionists founders worked to actively promote anti-semetism around the world, and encouraged countries to treat jews poorly.

Countries needed no encouragement and antisemitism needed no promoting. Hatred of Jews had been a fundamental component of European/Christian culture for thousands of years, and periodic extermination of Jews every couple of generations had been a recurring event in almost every country where they lived in significant numbers.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Bonam

[Bonam]

No it wasnt. It was also a plan on how to establish that state, and get jews to move there.

This is blatantly false. There was never any one plan universally agreed upon by Zionists of all stripes, either on how to establish that state or how to populate it. As with many political movements, there was a wide range of conflicting and competing ideas, and there were many types of Zionism. Even a passing familiarity with the topic would have prevented you from making the above statement.

[DogOnPorch]

Zionism made it worse for the Jews? Are we getting another 'history spanking & schooling' or what??

Up next: The new 5 Year Plan produces record crop yields!

:lol:

[dre]

Movements change. When Zionism was forming, nationalism was very prevalent in Europe, and the notion of killing and dying by the hundreds of thousands for the cause of one's nation was romanticized rather than abhorred. To judge early Zionists by their acceptance of this viewpoint is no different than judging early American leaders for their acceptance of slavery. It is a fallacy. Seeing the past through the moral filter of the present will always lead one to silly results.

As for how Jews were treated prior to the Zionist movement.. no, you're quite wrong, Jews were being massacred and exterminated the whole freaking time. The Holocaust was only the latest and greatest replay of the same sad tired old routine. The numbers paint the reality very clearly. 2000 years ago, Jews were ~5% of the world's population. Jews were always a relatively insular group, and most that were born Jews throughout history remained so. Prior to the Holocaust, Jews composed just ~0.5% of the world's population. Over that ~2000 year span, roughly 90% of Jews had been eradicated. The Holocaust merely brought that number up to 95%, with Jews comprising about 0.25% of the world's population since then.

Countries needed no encouragement and antisemitism needed no promoting. Hatred of Jews had been a fundamental component of Western (European/Christian) culture for thousands of years, and periodic extermination of Jews every couple of generations had been a recurring event in almost every Western country.

As for how Jews were treated prior to the Zionist movement.. no, you're quite wrong, Jews were being massacred and exterminated the whole freaking time.

No thats just not true. Show me evidence of any "massacres" or "extermination" on anything even CLOSE to that scale in the few centuries prior to the last one.

periodic extermination of Jews every couple of generations had been a recurring event in almost every Western

Cite for that too please.

Countries needed no encouragement and antisemitism needed no promoting.

Horse shit.

Jews had full civil rights in germany when the zionists started spreading anti-jewish propoganda there. You can dismiss it all you want, but the fact is that zionists chose promoting anti-semitism as a means to their end. You can dismiss and defend what these zionists did all you want. I imagine it will take some time to sink in since youd never heard of this until yesterday.

If you think its ok that zionists threw the worlds jews under the bus to get their "jewish state" then thats your problem. But this is the history of that movement and were going to have a thread about "what zionism is" then this is a big part of it. These people destroyed jewish communities around the world to get their "state" and they helped get millions of jews killed, and then worked to make sure they had no refuge besides Israel.

Edited December 6, 2011 by dre

[Guest Manny]

Bonam speaks the truth. Jews were persecuted in Europe for centuries. Martin Luther portrayed the Jews as evil subversive traitors worthy of death in his paper "The Jews and Their Lies". This writing inspired many Europeans to hate the Jews, and it influenced Adolph Hitler.

During the time of the back plague in the late 1300's, Jews were suspected of being the cause in many cities. This might have been because they did not get the plaque so much as non-Jews, possibly due to the fact that they were more hygienic according to traditional Jewish customs.

That's why every country in Europe was happy to get rid of their Jewish "problem" in the war, and willingly rounded them up to send them to concentration camps all over Europe. Those camps were not just in Germany. The Germans were the enablers of the Holocaust, they provided the system and the organizational structure to do it. The work of rounding up Jews from all over Europe was carried out by governments, police agnecies, mayors and private citizens in every country. Most people don't know this. And only now in recent times have some of those countries started to admit their complicity.

[DogOnPorch]

dre: No thats just not true.

Oh boy.

Edited December 6, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

Bonam speaks the truth. Jews were persecuted in Europe for centuries. Martin Luther portrayed the Jews as evil subversive traitors worthy of death in his paper "The Jews and Their Lies". This writing inspired many Europeans to hate the Jews, and it influenced Adolph Hitler.

During the time of the back plague in the late 1300's, Jews were suspected of being the cause in many cities. This might have been because they did not get the plaque so much as non-Jews, possibly due to the fact that they were more hygienic according to traditional Jewish customs.

That's why every country in Europe was happy to get rid of their Jewish "problem" in the war, and willingly rounded them up to send them to concentration camps all over Europe. Those camps were not just in Germany. The Germans were the enablers of the Holocaust, they provided the system and the organizational structure to do it. The work of rounding up Jews from all over Europe was carried out by governments, police agnecies, mayors and private citizens in every country. Most people don't know this. And only now in recent times have some of those countries started to admit their complicity.

Of course you're right and so is Bonam.

[dre]

This is blatantly false. There was never any one plan universally agreed upon by Zionists of all stripes, either on how to establish that state or how to populate it. As with many political movements, there was a wide range of conflicting and competing ideas, and there were many types of Zionism. Even a passing familiarity with the topic would have prevented you from making the above statement.

No its blatantly true. Herzel was the primary founder of the movement. The people I quoted were the folks at the top of the food chain... Israels first leaders, and high ranking government officials. This was a concerted strategy used world wide, not a few loose cannons.

[dre]

Bonam speaks the truth. Jews were persecuted in Europe for centuries. Martin Luther portrayed the Jews as evil subversive traitors worthy of death in his paper "The Jews and Their Lies". This writing inspired many Europeans to hate the Jews, and it influenced Adolph Hitler.

During the time of the back plague in the late 1300's, Jews were suspected of being the cause in many cities. This might have been because they did not get the plaque so much as non-Jews, possibly due to the fact that they were more hygienic according to traditional Jewish customs.

That's why every country in Europe was happy to get rid of their Jewish "problem" in the war, and willingly rounded them up to send them to concentration camps all over Europe. Those camps were not just in Germany. The Germans were the enablers of the Holocaust, they provided the system and the organizational structure to do it. The work of rounding up Jews from all over Europe was carried out by governments, police agnecies, mayors and private citizens in every country. Most people don't know this. And only now in recent times have some of those countries started to admit their complicity.

That's why every country in Europe was happy to get rid of their Jewish "problem" in the war, and willingly rounded them up to send them to concentration camps all over Europe.

That does not change the fact that zionists actively campaigned for these things to happen. They WANTED Jews in all those countries to suffer. Otherwise there would be nobody to live in their state.

It is essential that the sufferings of Jews. . . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-semites shall be our best friends.

Edited December 6, 2011 by dre

[DogOnPorch]

No its blatantly true. Herzel was the primary founder of the movement. The people I quoted were the folks at the top of the food chain... Israels first leaders, and high ranking government officials. This was a concerted strategy used world wide, not a few loose cannons.

I hear they control the World's governments, banking systems and the mass media besides using the blood of virgins for their holiday cooking.

Edited December 6, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[Bonam]

No thats just not true. Show me evidence of any "massacres" or "extermination" on anything even CLOSE to that scale in the few centuries prior to the last one.

Cite for that too please.

The scale was smaller only because the technology for industrially automated extermination had not been there. Hitler was more efficient, but, sadly, he was no more hateful than many predecessors.

How many cites would you like? Here's a tiny sampling of the thousands, found by quickly googling. Large scale massacres in bold:

135 B.C

Antiochus Epiphanes desecrates Second Jewish Temple; leading to Hasmonean Revolt against Rome.

70 A.D.

Titus took Jerusalem - second revolt. Over one million Jews killed.

136 A.D.

580,000 men destroyed, 985 towns destroyed - third revolt.

300 A.D.

Purim festival celebrating God's deliverance to Mordecai and the Jews through Esther and the fasting. Lies spread that Jews kill Christians for sacrifice. Emperor Severus also said the Jews purchased 90,000 Christians to kill them.

306 A.D.

Council in Spain banned Christians & Jews meeting or marrying.

415 A.D.

Bishop Severus BURNED THE SYNAGOGUE IN THE VILLAGE OF MAGONA. BISHOP OF

ALEXANDRIA, ST. CYRIL EXPELLED JEWS FROM ALEXANDRIA AND GAVE THE MOB JEWISH PROPERTY.

ACCUSATION of Ritual murder by the Jews during Purim. Christians confiscated synagogues in ANTIOCH.

These were not hooligans but Church Fathers!

AUGUSTINE, JEROME, AMBROSE AND LESSER SAINTS AS ST. CHRYSOSTROM AND CYRIL, added to untruths the new ones that Jews were dishonest and prone to sexual perversions.

717 A.D.

Jews had to wear special yellow garb. Originated in Islam.

1012 A.D.

Emperor Henry II of Germany expels Jews from Mainz, the beginning of persecutions against Jews in Germany.

1096 A.D.

First Crusade. Crusaders massacre the Jews of the Rhineland.

1144 A.D.

First recorded blood libel. In Norwich it was alleged that the Jews had "bought a Christian child before Easter, tortured him with all the tortures wherewith our Lord was tortured and on Friday hanged him on a rood in hatred of our Lord." (England)

This notorious allegation that Jews murder non-Jews, especially Christians, in order to obtain blood for the Passover or other rituals is a complex of deliberate lies, trumped up accusations, and popular beliefs about the murder-lust of the Jews and their blood-thirstiness, based on the conception that Jews hate Christianity and mankind in general. It is combined with the delusion that Jews are in some way not human and must have recourse to special remedies and subterfuges in order to appear at least outwardly, like other men. The blood libel led to trials and massacres of Jews. Its origin is rooted in ancient almost primordial, concepts concerning the potency and energies of blood. It is one of the most terrible expressions of human cruelty and credulity. These blood rituals are expressly forbidden in Judaism. (See Leviticus 17;11 etc.)

1190 A.D.

Massacre of Jews in England.

1215 A.D.

The Jewish badge introduced.

1240 A.D.

Talmud burned in France.

1290 A.D.

Jews expelled from England.

1298 A.D.

Massacre of thousands in Germany, in 146 localities.

1306 A.D.

Expulsion from France.

1348 A.D.

JEWS blamed for the BLACK DEATH. Charge laid to the Jews that they POISONED the wells to kill CHRISTIANS.

1389 A.D.

MASSACRES in Bohemia, Spain.

1421 A.D.

270 JEWS BURNED AT THE STAKE. In the 14th and 15th centuries the Inquisition was more intense because the Church and State joined forces. Just being Jewish guaranteed persecution

1480 A.D.

Inquisition in Spain - Jews and Christians burned at the stake.

1483 A.D.

EXPULSIONS from Warsaw, Sicily, Lithuania, Portugal.

1492 A.D.

ALL JEWS EXPELLED FROM SPAIN.

1506 A.D.

Murders in Lisbon - 4000, "conversos", men, women, and children thrown from windows to street mobs below, due to preaching by Dominicans against the Jews.

1510 A.D.

EXPELLED from Brandenburg, Germany.

1516 A.D.

Venice initiates the ghetto, the first in Christian Europe.

1544 A.D.

The Reformation. At the end of Martin Luther's life the German reformer vilified the Jews in violent pamphlets which could not fail to exert their influence. But because Calvinists were steeped in Old Testament theology, the Dutch people respected the Jews as "the Chosen" people; and were not anti-Semitic in their faith. The reformation was a time of turmoil as the Roman Church and feudalism lost their supremacy. There was a rising up of Nationhood and Luther was a German nationalist. The Talmud was seized and burned everywhere by Papal authority. Jews in Catholic countries and Polish Jews suffered greatly. Luther's anti-Semitic writings were later used in anti-Semitic literature.

1553 A.D.

Rome seized and burned the Talmud by order of the POPE.

1559 A.D.

12,000 copies of Talmud burned in Milan.

1569 A.D.

POPE PIUS V ordered all Jews out of the Papal states.

1593 A.D.

EXPULSIONS from Italy and Bavaria.

1598 A.D.

Ritual murder charge that sent three Jews to their deaths. Execution of the supposed guilty was done by QUARTERING. (In his book the "Birth of the Prison" Michel Foucault describes at length the quartering of a condemned man in 1757. It was done eventually by six horses instead of the four original ones and other means had to come in to play due to the failure even of six horses as the prisoners limbs were tied to ropes harnessed to the horses. Each horse pulled in a different direction. One horse fell to the ground unsuccessfully. Knives had to be used for severing...)

1614 A.D.

JEWS attacked and driven out of Frankfurt, Germany.

1624 A.D.

GHETTO established in Ferrara, Italy.

1648 A.D.

Leader of the Cossacks, in the Ukraine massacres 100,000 Jews and destroyed 300 communities.

1655 A.D.

Massacres of Jews in war against Sweden & Russia by Poland.

1715 A.D.

POPE PIUS VI issues edict against Jews.

1768 A.D.

20,000 Jews in Poland killed.

1805 A.D.

MASSACRE of Jews in Algeria.

1840 A.D.

BLOOD LIBEL in DAMASCUS.

1853 A.D.

BLOOD LIBEL in RUSSIA.

1879 A.D.

Word anti-Semitism comes into existence.

1881 A.D.

POGROMS BEGAN. The word is of Russian origin. It designates attack, accompanied by destruction, looting of property, murder, rape. There were three major outbreaks in Russia. The word designates more particularly the attacks carried out by the Christian population. Each pogrom surpassed the other in savagery.

KIEV, ODESSA; Here murder of whole families was a common occurrence. Partial data are available for 530 communities in which 887 major pogroms and 349 minor pogroms occurred. There were 60,000 dead and several times that many were wounded.

1882 A.D.

FIRST ANTI-JEWISH CONGRESS HELD. In Dresden, Germany.

1894 A.D.

ALFRED DREYFUS TRIAL in France. Details follow further on in this summary.

1903 A.D.

APPEARANCE of a new issue of the PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION. In Russia.

This spectre of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy aiming at reducing the Gentiles to slavery or extermination loomed up in the medieval Christian imagination and grew out of legends about well poisonings and plague spreading. It was concocted in Paris by an unknown author working for the Russian secret police. It was an alleged conference of the leaders of World Jewry. It was translated into all the world languages. In 1963 a Spanish edition was published. During World War II, the Protocols of the elders of Zion became an implicit justification for the GENOCIDE of the Jews and Nazi propaganda relied on them until the last days of the Third Reich. Smaller pamphlets of it have been distributed in B.C. 1983 published in California... Required reading in most Arab countries, in schools, to this day.

1905 A.D.

Russian pogroms continue. Also in Morocco, Ukraine, 300 dead.

1919 A.D.

3000 Jews killed in Hungarian pogroms.

1920 A.D.

Appearance of ADOLPH HITLER. Also Henry Ford the 1st believes the Protocols; and publishes anti-Jewish articles in his newspaper, the Dearborn Independent.

1925 A.D.

MEIN KAMPH appears. Hitler's Plan published in Germany.

1933 A.D.

HITLER appointed chancellor in Germany.

1935 A.D.

Hitler writes his Nuremberg Laws which lead to his Final Solution.

1938 A.D.

Burning in AUSTRIA & GERMANY of Synagogues. Jews sent to concentration camps. Beginnings of the Holocaust.

1939 A.D.

Germany overruns Poland.

1940 A.D.

Gassing, shootings in Polish Ghettos (Jewish).

1941 A.D.

EXPULSION of Jews from the German Reich to Poland. Riots against Jews in Iraq.

1942 A.D.

Mass transports of Jews to Belgium & Holland.

1944 A.D.

EXTERMINATION OF HUNGARIAN JEWS.

1945 A.D.

HOLOCAUST Final Count: 6,000,000 Jews slaughtered.

1946 A.D.

Pogroms in Poland - 42 Jews murdered.

1948 A.D.

BIRTH OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL. Also Jewish intellectuals shot in Russia.

1952 A.D.

Jews murdered byCommunists, and others disappear. Prague trials. Murder of Yiddish intellectuals in Russia and many sent to work camps..

1956 A.D.

Jews expelled out of EGYPT.

1969 A.D.

JEWS EXECUTED IN IRAQ.

1970 A.D.

Beginning of imprisonment in Russia of PRISONERS OF CONSCIENCE. ("Refuseniks")

1980 A.D.

Russian imprisonments carry on throughout the 70's to the 80's.

http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/expulsions.html

Edited December 6, 2011 by Bonam

[dre]

The scale was smaller only because the technology for industrially automated extermination had not been there. Hitler was more efficient, but, sadly, he was no more hateful than many predecessors.

How many cites would you like? Here's a tiny sampling of the thousands, found by quickly googling:

135 B.C

Antiochus Epiphanes desecrates Second Jewish Temple; leading to Hasmonean Revolt against Rome.

70 A.D.

Titus took Jerusalem - second revolt. Over one million Jews killed.

136 A.D.

580,000 men destroyed, 985 towns destroyed - third revolt.

300 A.D.

Purim festival celebrating God's deliverance to Mordecai and the Jews through Esther and the fasting. Lies spread that Jews kill Christians for sacrifice. Emperor Severus also said the Jews purchased 90,000 Christians to kill them.

306 A.D.

Council in Spain banned Christians & Jews meeting or marrying.

415 A.D.

Bishop Severus BURNED THE SYNAGOGUE IN THE VILLAGE OF MAGONA. BISHOP OF

ALEXANDRIA, ST. CYRIL EXPELLED JEWS FROM ALEXANDRIA AND GAVE THE MOB JEWISH PROPERTY.

ACCUSATION of Ritual murder by the Jews during Purim. Christians confiscated synagogues in ANTIOCH.

These were not hooligans but Church Fathers!

AUGUSTINE, JEROME, AMBROSE AND LESSER SAINTS AS ST. CHRYSOSTROM AND CYRIL, added to untruths the new ones that Jews were dishonest and prone to sexual perversions.

717 A.D.

Jews had to wear special yellow garb. Originated in Islam.

1012 A.D.

Emperor Henry II of Germany expels Jews from Mainz, the beginning of persecutions against Jews in Germany.

1096 A.D.

First Crusade. Crusaders massacre the Jews of the Rhineland.

1144 A.D.

First recorded blood libel. In Norwich it was alleged that the Jews had "bought a Christian child before Easter, tortured him with all the tortures wherewith our Lord was tortured and on Friday hanged him on a rood in hatred of our Lord." (England)

This notorious allegation that Jews murder non-Jews, especially Christians, in order to obtain blood for the Passover or other rituals is a complex of deliberate lies, trumped up accusations, and popular beliefs about the murder-lust of the Jews and their blood-thirstiness, based on the conception that Jews hate Christianity and mankind in general. It is combined with the delusion that Jews are in some way not human and must have recourse to special remedies and subterfuges in order to appear at least outwardly, like other men. The blood libel led to trials and massacres of Jews. Its origin is rooted in ancient almost primordial, concepts concerning the potency and energies of blood. It is one of the most terrible expressions of human cruelty and credulity. These blood rituals are expressly forbidden in Judaism. (See Leviticus 17;11 etc.)

1190 A.D.

Massacre of Jews in England.

1215 A.D.

The Jewish badge introduced.

1240 A.D.

Talmud burned in France.

1290 A.D.

Jews expelled from England.

1298 A.D.

Massacre of thousands in Germany, in 146 localities.

1306 A.D.

Expulsion from France.

1348 A.D.

JEWS blamed for the BLACK DEATH. Charge laid to the Jews that they POISONED the wells to kill CHRISTIANS.

1389 A.D.

MASSACRES in Bohemia, Spain.

1421 A.D.

270 JEWS BURNED AT THE STAKE. In the 14th and 15th centuries the Inquisition was more intense because the Church and State joined forces. Just being Jewish guaranteed persecution

1480 A.D.

Inquisition in Spain - Jews and Christians burned at the stake.

1483 A.D.

EXPULSIONS from Warsaw, Sicily, Lithuania, Portugal.

1492 A.D.

ALL JEWS EXPELLED FROM SPAIN.

1506 A.D.

Murders in Lisbon - 4000, "conversos", men, women, and children thrown from windows to street mobs below, due to preaching by Dominicans against the Jews.

1510 A.D.

EXPELLED from Brandenburg, Germany.

1516 A.D.

Venice initiates the ghetto, the first in Christian Europe.

1544 A.D.

The Reformation. At the end of Martin Luther's life the German reformer vilified the Jews in violent pamphlets which could not fail to exert their influence. But because Calvinists were steeped in Old Testament theology, the Dutch people respected the Jews as "the Chosen" people; and were not anti-Semitic in their faith. The reformation was a time of turmoil as the Roman Church and feudalism lost their supremacy. There was a rising up of Nationhood and Luther was a German nationalist. The Talmud was seized and burned everywhere by Papal authority. Jews in Catholic countries and Polish Jews suffered greatly. Luther's anti-Semitic writings were later used in anti-Semitic literature.

1553 A.D.

Rome seized and burned the Talmud by order of the POPE.

1559 A.D.

12,000 copies of Talmud burned in Milan.

1569 A.D.

POPE PIUS V ordered all Jews out of the Papal states.

1593 A.D.

EXPULSIONS from Italy and Bavaria.

1598 A.D.

Ritual murder charge that sent three Jews to their deaths. Execution of the supposed guilty was done by QUARTERING. (In his book the "Birth of the Prison" Michel Foucault describes at length the quartering of a condemned man in 1757. It was done eventually by six horses instead of the four original ones and other means had to come in to play due to the failure even of six horses as the prisoners limbs were tied to ropes harnessed to the horses. Each horse pulled in a different direction. One horse fell to the ground unsuccessfully. Knives had to be used for severing...)

1614 A.D.

JEWS attacked and driven out of Frankfurt, Germany.

1624 A.D.

GHETTO established in Ferrara, Italy.

1648 A.D.

Leader of the Cossacks, in the Ukraine massacres 100,000 Jews and destroyed 300 communities.

1655 A.D.

Massacres of Jews in war against Sweden & Russia by Poland.

1715 A.D.

POPE PIUS VI issues edict against Jews.

1768 A.D.

20,000 Jews in Poland killed.

1805 A.D.

MASSACRE of Jews in Algeria.

1840 A.D.

BLOOD LIBEL in DAMASCUS.

1853 A.D.

BLOOD LIBEL in RUSSIA.

1879 A.D.

Word anti-Semitism comes into existence.

1881 A.D.

POGROMS BEGAN. The word is of Russian origin. It designates attack, accompanied by destruction, looting of property, murder, rape. There were three major outbreaks in Russia. The word designates more particularly the attacks carried out by the Christian population. Each pogrom surpassed the other in savagery.

KIEV, ODESSA; Here murder of whole families was a common occurrence. Partial data are available for 530 communities in which 887 major pogroms and 349 minor pogroms occurred. There were 60,000 dead and several times that many were wounded.

1882 A.D.

FIRST ANTI-JEWISH CONGRESS HELD. In Dresden, Germany.

1894 A.D.

ALFRED DREYFUS TRIAL in France. Details follow further on in this summary.

1903 A.D.

APPEARANCE of a new issue of the PROTOCOLS OF THE ELDERS OF ZION. In Russia.

This spectre of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy aiming at reducing the Gentiles to slavery or extermination loomed up in the medieval Christian imagination and grew out of legends about well poisonings and plague spreading. It was concocted in Paris by an unknown author working for the Russian secret police. It was an alleged conference of the leaders of World Jewry. It was translated into all the world languages. In 1963 a Spanish edition was published. During World War II, the Protocols of the elders of Zion became an implicit justification for the GENOCIDE of the Jews and Nazi propaganda relied on them until the last days of the Third Reich. Smaller pamphlets of it have been distributed in B.C. 1983 published in California... Required reading in most Arab countries, in schools, to this day.

1905 A.D.

Russian pogroms continue. Also in Morocco, Ukraine, 300 dead.

1919 A.D.

3000 Jews killed in Hungarian pogroms.

1920 A.D.

Appearance of ADOLPH HITLER. Also Henry Ford the 1st believes the Protocols; and publishes anti-Jewish articles in his newspaper, the Dearborn Independent.

1925 A.D.

MEIN KAMPH appears. Hitler's Plan published in Germany.

1933 A.D.

HITLER appointed chancellor in Germany.

1935 A.D.

Hitler writes his Nuremberg Laws which lead to his Final Solution.

1938 A.D.

Burning in AUSTRIA & GERMANY of Synagogues. Jews sent to concentration camps. Beginnings of the Holocaust.

1939 A.D.

Germany overruns Poland.

1940 A.D.

Gassing, shootings in Polish Ghettos (Jewish).

1941 A.D.

EXPULSION of Jews from the German Reich to Poland. Riots against Jews in Iraq.

1942 A.D.

Mass transports of Jews to Belgium & Holland.

1944 A.D.

EXTERMINATION OF HUNGARIAN JEWS.

1945 A.D.

HOLOCAUST Final Count: 6,000,000 Jews slaughtered.

1946 A.D.

Pogroms in Poland - 42 Jews murdered.

1948 A.D.

BIRTH OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL. Also Jewish intellectuals shot in Russia.

1952 A.D.

Jews murdered byCommunists, and others disappear. Prague trials. Murder of Yiddish intellectuals in Russia and many sent to work camps..

1956 A.D.

Jews expelled out of EGYPT.

1969 A.D.

JEWS EXECUTED IN IRAQ.

1970 A.D.

Beginning of imprisonment in Russia of PRISONERS OF CONSCIENCE. ("Refuseniks")

1980 A.D.

Russian imprisonments carry on throughout the 70's to the 80's.

Thats a nice cut and paste but it doesnt support your assertion that Jews were "exterminated" in every country every two generations. It DOES however support what I said... That the worst treatment of jews came AFTER the birth of zionism, and that zionists played a part in that.

But all the things you quoted DID happen. And I never said jews have not been persecuted. Clearly they have. But that does not change the character of the zionist movement or their campaign to spread to increase the ammount of anti semetism world wide and make jews suffer.

Im also not opposed to the idea of a Jewish state. Almost half my family lives there actually. But like I said... if you want to have a discussion about what zionism is, then this is a big part of it.

Edited December 6, 2011 by dre

[Bonam]

Thats a nice cut and paste but it doesnt support your assertion that Jews were "exterminated" in every country every two generations.

But all the things you quoted DID happen. And I never said jews have not been persecuted. Clearly they have. But that does not change the character of the zionist movement or their campaign to spread to increase the ammount of anti semetism world wide and make jews suffer.

The objective of the Zionist movement was to create a Jewish state. Different individual zionists were willing to go to different lengths to accomplish that end. Some, indeed, advocated methods we would not approve of today. And, realistically, given that genocide against the diaspora (NOT including the Holocaust) had cost world Jewry 90% of their numbers over 2000 years, one could make the utilitarian argument that a short term spike in discrimination, if it led to a Jewish state where Jews would be safe and secure, would be very much worthwhile in terms of lives saved over the longer term. Such an argument may not hold much weight in the moral framework we operate in today, but I can certainly see how some individuals may have had thoughts along those lines.

On a side note, the same strategy you accuse early Zionists of is still being applied today by Arab nations regarding the Palestinians. Why else are they still forced to live as stateless refugees in camps in nations where they have resided for generations? The difference is that that is happening today.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Bonam

[dre]

The objective of the Zionist movement was to create a Jewish state. Different individual zionists were willing to go to different lengths to accomplish that end. Some, indeed, advocated methods we would not approve of today. And, realistically, given that genocide against the diaspora had cost world Jewry 90% of their numbers over 2000 years, one could make the utilitarian argument that a short term spike in discrimination, if it led to a Jewish state where Jews would be safe and secure, would be very much worthwhile in terms of lives saved over the longer term. Such an argument may not hold much weight in the moral framework we operate in today, but I can certainly see how some individuals may have had thoughts along those lines.

On a side note, the same strategy you accuse early Zionists of is still being applied today by Arab nations regarding the Palestinians. Why else are they still forced to live as stateless refugees in camps in nations where they have resided for generations? The difference is that that is happening today.

The objective of the Zionist movement was to create a Jewish state. Different individual zionists were willing to go to different lengths to accomplish that end. Some, indeed, advocated methods we would not approve of today. And, realistically, given that genocide against the diaspora had cost world Jewry 90% of their numbers over 2000 years, one could make the utilitarian argument that a short term spike in discrimination, if it led to a Jewish state where Jews would be safe and secure, would be very much worthwhile in terms of lives saved over the longer term. Such an argument may not hold much weight in the moral framework we operate in today, but I can certainly see how some individuals may have had thoughts along those lines.

You can argue from the point of utility all you like. By that reasoning Nazis themselves were instrumental in the "safety of jews".

On a side note, the same strategy you accuse early Zionists of is still being applied today by Arab nations regarding the Palestinians. Why else are they still forced to live as stateless refugees in camps in nations where they have resided for generations? The difference is that that is happening today.

Excellent point! Arabs have caused as many problems for Palestinians as Zionist caused for the worlds jews, and have played a role in their suffering.

[Bonam]

It DOES however support what I said... That the worst treatment of jews came AFTER the birth of zionism, and that zionists played a part in that.

Incorrect. If there is any distinction to be made in the long string of massacres of Jews, it is with the beginnings of the pogroms in Russia and other Slavic nations. These began in the 1880s, while Zionism, as a movement, only began to gain any real influence after 1897. Zionism was a response to the extermination of Jews in eastern Europe in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and its aims were to create a state where Jews would not face this constant murder and could live in peace among their own kind.