Euro can die

[cojohnle]

Can the euro be saved? Not long ago we were told that the worst possible outcome was a Greek default. Now a much wider disaster seems all too likely.

True, market pressure lifted a bit on Wednesday after central banks made a splashy announcement about expanded credit lines (which will, in fact, make hardly any real difference). But even optimists now see Europe as headed for recession, while pessimists warn that the euro may become the epicenter of another global financial crisis.

How did things go so wrong? The answer you hear all the time is that the euro crisis was caused by fiscal irresponsibility. Turn on your TV and you’re very likely to find some pundit declaring that if America doesn’t slash spending we’ll end up like Greece. Greeeeeece!

Read more: Euro can die

[olp1fan]

I hope Harperland dies with it and we start over

[Wilber]

I hope Harperland dies with it and we start over

True to form, the Euro is now Harpers fault.

[olp1fan]

True to form, the Euro is now Harpers fault.

Um nobody made that comment..

[dre]

The euro can definately be saved for a while. International bankers will do almost ANYTING to keep their scam going, as is demonstrated by the one million mile high stack of dollar bills the fed got caught secretly dumping into the global financial system a couple of weeks ago.

If they needed to... they would conjure up a billion trillion dollars to keep the game going as long as they can.

[bush_cheney2004]

I hope Harperland dies with it and we start over

So you want Canada to die? Why?

[Wilber]

Um nobody made that comment..

Tell me then, what the hell does the demise of the Euro have to do with Harper? You don't strike me as a stupid person but your obsession with and total lack of objectivity when comes to the man is tiresome.

[olp1fan]

So you want Canada to die? Why?

what Canada?

harper said i would not recognize canada and i dont

Edited December 3, 2011 by olp1fan

[olp1fan]

Tell me then, what the hell does the demise of the Euro have to do with Harper? You don't strike me as a stupid person but your obsession with and total lack of objectivity when comes to the man is tiresome.

Hope death of the euro wrecks the worlds economy

we need to restart

[Wilber]

Hope death of the euro wrecks the worlds economy

we need to restart

I take back the comment about you not being stupid.

[olp1fan]

I take back the comment about you not being stupid.

you wanna live in a world run by bankers who get bail out after bail out

Edited December 3, 2011 by olp1fan

[Wilber]

you wanna live in a world run by bankers who get bail out after bail out

You wanna live in a world of survival of the fittest a its basic level? What do you think destroying the world economy and starting over will entail, some kind of love in? Be careful what you wish for.

[olp1fan]

You wanna live in a world of survival of the fittest a its basic level? What do you think destroying the world economy and starting over will entail, some kind of love in? Be careful what you wish for.

the richer are getting richer and poorer are getting much poorer

id rather try something else, this is just not working anymore

itll be hard for years but eventually it will be better

Edited December 3, 2011 by olp1fan

[dre]

You wanna live in a world of survival of the fittest a its basic level? What do you think destroying the world economy and starting over will entail, some kind of love in? Be careful what you wish for.

Thats pretty hyperbolic and thats not what would happen if the system collapsed. THe economy is driven by people that make and consume real goods and services. The global banking system just provides a medium of exchange... when it crashes something else will take its place, just like this system took the place of the one before it, and that system took the place of the one before that.

Argentina is probably a pretty good example of what a recovery would look like. They basically had to start again from scratch after they told international bankers to take a hike, and defaulted on their debt. Eggheads and politicians would scramble to figure out how the new monetary system is going to work, and for a while youd have a lot of complimentary currency around and things like barter networks. Argentinas peso devalued very quickly and foreign investment packed up and left. Quite a mess.

But at the end of the day... people need to eat, and the farmer doesnt forget how to grow food because there is no bank, and the baker doesnt forget how to bake bread. And people need clothing, and the seemstress doesnt forget how to sew because the banks and money are gone either.

The devalued currency made it almost impossible to import things, so domestic production increased, and their products became more affordable to foreigners.

Argentina has managed to return to growth with surprising strength; the GDP jumped 8.8% in 2003, 9.0% in 2004, 9.2% in 2005, 8.5% in 2006 and 8.7% in 2007.

That was basically a complete reboot. Money was gone, and people had to partially revert to the ancient barter system until the government could reestablish a currency.

Im not saying it was a day in the park. The recovery took almost ten years and people faced a lot of hardship.

But no... If the system collapsed we would not revert back to "survival of the fittest", and the economy would come back, quite possibly stronger. Our banking system actually puts a pretty huge drain on the economy. Billions and billions of dollars worth of money is confiscated by banks as "profit", and thats money that does not make it into the productive economy. Money is a technology that needs to solve a very simple problem, and the economy would be more stable under a lighter weight system.

[bush_cheney2004]

the richer are getting richer and poorer are getting much poorer

That's how it is suppose to work....even if it was started over.

id rather try something else, this is just not working anymore

Not working for you.....that's not true for everybody else.

itll be hard for years but eventually it will be better

It will always be hard...for those who can't/won't compete.

Edited December 3, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Wilber]

Argentina was one small cog in a global system that didn't collapse. It was able to take advantage of that system in its recovery. So what if your currency is devalued if every other currency was worthless as well. All those investments, RRSP's and other pension plans, worthless. Try looking at a larger system like the Roman Empire. It's collapse was followed by the Dark Ages. Do you seriously think the whole world could go back to a barter system with no currency without chaos? Anyone who thinks they can foresee what would happen in the event of a global collapse is an idiot.

[Wilber]

But no... If the system collapsed we would not revert back to "survival of the fittest", and the economy would come back, quite possibly stronger. Our banking system actually puts a pretty huge drain on the economy. Billions and billions of dollars worth of money is confiscated by banks as "profit", and thats money that does not make it into the productive economy. Money is a technology that needs to solve a very simple problem, and the economy would be more stable under a lighter weight system.

You should invest in some bank shares. They pay a decent dividend and I can assure you that my portion goes into a productive economy.

[bush_cheney2004]

Argentina was one small cog in a global system that didn't collapse.....

Argentina paid some hefty dues before shifting to soybeans (for China). If it was that easy every nation would do it.

[Wilber]

Argentina paid some hefty dues before shifting to soybeans (for China). If it was that easy every nation would do it.

And if China's currency was worthless as well, who do they sell their beans to then? Maybe they could trade them for knock off Callaway golf clubs.

[olp1fan]

lol wilber thinks the world will be thrusted into the dark ages

and im the crazy one

[Wilber]

lol wilber thinks the world will be thrusted into the dark ages

and im the crazy one

You have no friggin clue what to expect.

[olp1fan]

You have no friggin clue what to expect.

and you do mr dark ages?

[dre]

You have no friggin clue what to expect.

Well... we have a pretty good idea based on history and economics. This system has only been around for about 39 years. The system before that lasted less than thirty years. If you think the global fiat empire is going to last forever then youre in for a shock. It would have collapsed in 2007 if trillions of dollars wasnt taken from people without their knowledge and dumped into the system.

When we switched from claim check money to the fractional reserve gold standard no dark ages followed. When we switched from the gold standard to the gold exchange standard there was no dark age. And when we switched from the gold exchange system to the system we have now there was no dark age either.

Anyhow... im not sure how the current system will last or what will replace it. Probably something like the Bancor or IMF-SDRs like the Chinese central banking is pushing for will be the next step, but eventually we will end up with some kind of sound money system, that has some kind of perpetual unit of value.

[Wilber]

Well... we have a pretty good idea based on history and economics. This system has only been around for about 39 years. The system before that lasted less than thirty years. If you think the global fiat empire is going to last forever then youre in for a shock. It would have collapsed in 2007 if trillions of dollars wasnt taken from people without their knowledge and dumped into the system.

When we switched from claim check money to the fractional reserve gold standard no dark ages followed. When we switched from the gold standard to the gold exchange standard there was no dark age. And when we switched from the gold exchange system to the system we have now there was no dark age either.

Anyhow... im not sure how the current system will last or what will replace it. Probably something like the Bancor or IMF-SDRs like the Chinese central banking is pushing for will be the next step, but eventually we will end up with some kind of sound money system, that has some kind of perpetual unit of value.

All of which were orderly transitions not the

Hope death of the euro wrecks the worlds economy

so eagerly anticipated by olp1fan. That's just asinine.

[Bonam]

A "collapse", even in the worst case scenario, isn't something that would just happen overnight, with everyone waking up to some post-apocalyptic stone age. It would be one country running into problems, followed by another, then another, all separated by some amount of time. Worsening global economic conditions would cause greater unemployment, unrest, etc. As conditions worsened, various schemes would be put in place to try to ameliorate the situation. Some would fail, others would have some measure of success. By the time the shock-wave reverberated all throughout the global system, many jurisdictions would already be on the path to recovery.

For all the doom and gloom people have been preaching of late, the 2008-2011 recession, or the 2001-2011 "lost decade" as some describe it, has been a subdued affair, causing minimal hardship compared to many prior times. The euro crisis is a combination of growing pains of the European union along with the continuing fallout of the 2008 credit crisis. Personally, for all the negativity I see in the media, I don't think there are any real signs of impending catastrophe.