First Nations ban pipelines to west coast

[Guest Derek L]

And the oil company tells you to piss up a rope while they find a chief that will be more reasonable, and an alternative route while the chief gets to explain to his people why they missed out on e money. The white cap Dakota reserve in Saskatchewan plays reasonable with private industry and have a 4% unemployment rate, why can't the others?

Or said Chief/band council is gifted (by said Oil Company) items of more monetary value than a wagon full of beads, frying pans, mirrors and Top Hats……..I wonder what a Vegas line would be on both pipelines being completed?

[blueblood]

Or said Chief/band council is gifted (by said Oil Company) items of more monetary value than a wagon full of beads, frying pans, mirrors and Top Hats……..I wonder what a Vegas line would be on both pipelines being completed?

Ask the whitecap Dakota reserve insaskatchewan about working with the private sector, their unemployment is at the provincial average.

Not only that their books are wide open.

Edited December 2, 2011 by blueblood

[Tilter]

The Tories new crime bill that they are rushing through, watch how many protesters will fit into that new law. BTW, didn't Jay Hill leave government to work in B.C.'s gas and oil industry? Harper probably has had this planned for years and just waiting for voters to give him a majority.

Yeah, it's the HARPER/HILL/BCGAS/PIPELINE/OIL INDUSTRY/LONGTERM PLANNING/MAJORITY GOVERNMENT/CONSPIRACY--- WELL PLANNED AND IN EXECUTION. Watch for it , it will appear as HHBGPOILPMGCE--The government would put the plan in effect but can't find a proper acronym to launch it :lol: :lol:

Edited December 2, 2011 by Tilter

[Tilter]

And the oil company tells you to piss up a rope while they find a chief that will be more reasonable, and an alternative route while the chief gets to explain to his people why they missed out on e money. The white cap Dakota reserve in Saskatchewan plays reasonable with private industry and have a 4% unemployment rate, why can't the others?

should read (in part)

chief gets to explain to his CRONES why they missed out on the money.

[jacee]

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=19909&view=findpost&p=737322

They've already turned down money/equity.

That's not the issue.

[Smallc]

The pipelines will get built, it just may not get built there.

[Shwa]

They don't have to have a price and they don't need to fit your definition of reasonable. It's their land and if they don't want to allow pipelines run on it, that's their prerogative.

But that isn't what I mean since you are reading my post out of context. Please try again and include all the implied references. Thanks!

[Shwa]

And the oil company tells you to piss up a rope while they find a chief that will be more reasonable, and an alternative route while the chief gets to explain to his people why they missed out on e money. The white cap Dakota reserve in Saskatchewan plays reasonable with private industry and have a 4% unemployment rate, why can't the others?

From the OP

First Nations, whose unceded territory encompasses the entire coastline of British Columbia, have formed a united front, banning al exports of tar sands crude oil through their territories,” more than 60 aboriginal groups said in a statement.

Sure they could, but it will always be about what is cheaper and maximizes profits right? With such a united front over such a large area, the oil company might be spending more valuable time telling chiefs to piss up a rope rather than getting the oil to market and actually making some profit. Time is on the Indians side. And the land is too of course.

[blueblood]

From the OP

Sure they could, but it will always be about what is cheaper and maximizes profits right? With such a united front over such a large area, the oil company might be spending more valuable time telling chiefs to piss up a rope rather than getting the oil to market and actually making some profit. Time is on the Indians side. And the land is too of course.

For 50%, the oil companies can afford to take the traditional methods of getting oil to market while the west coast nations deal with being poorer. I winder which ones will crack first. Sounds like the cracking has already begun.

McCleans

Like it or not, there is a trend with some first nations to get out of the typical way of doing things.

[Shwa]

For 50%, the oil companies can afford to take the traditional methods of getting oil to market while the west coast nations deal with being poorer. I winder which ones will crack first. Sounds like the cracking has already begun.

McCleans

Like it or not, there is a trend with some first nations to get out of the typical way of doing things.

Define poor-er.

Isn't that the gist of the entire aboriginal problem in the first place though? That is, there is no one-to-one translation between your values and theirs and you have no way of understanding their values because you lack the faculties to perceive differences.

I kind of prefer it that way actually. To know that someone is taking the time to value the landscape in a preservative way; all those old growth forests, the mountain valleys, the sensitive coastlines and all the creatures that live and breath there.

But who knows, maybe when they get a load of the new 72" Aquous flat panel TV's, they will cave in.

[cybercoma]

Define poor-er.

Isn't that the gist of the entire aboriginal problem in the first place though? That is, there is no one-to-one translation between your values and theirs and you have no way of understanding their values because you lack the faculties to perceive differences.

I kind of prefer it that way actually. To know that someone is taking the time to value the landscape in a preservative way; all those old growth forests, the mountain valleys, the sensitive coastlines and all the creatures that live and breath there.

But who knows, maybe when they get a load of the new 72" Aquous flat panel TV's, they will cave in.

Such a great post.

[blueblood]

Define poor-er.

Isn't that the gist of the entire aboriginal problem in the first place though? That is, there is no one-to-one translation between your values and theirs and you have no way of understanding their values because you lack the faculties to perceive differences.

I kind of prefer it that way actually. To know that someone is taking the time to value the landscape in a preservative way; all those old growth forests, the mountain valleys, the sensitive coastlines and all the creatures that live and breath there.

But who knows, maybe when they get a load of the new 72" Aquous flat panel TV's, they will cave in.

Well, what are you complaining about those poor folks up north then. If like you said they don't value money and prefer to keep the 1700s lifestyle going, why are we worried about them?

I think they prefer a comparable standard of living to everyone else, unfortunately big government and anti-business types are preventing that from happening. The Whitecap Dakota gets it, why don't you?

[Shwa]

Well, what are you complaining about those poor folks up north then. If like you said they don't value money and prefer to keep the 1700s lifestyle going, why are we worried about them?

I think they prefer a comparable standard of living to everyone else, unfortunately big government and anti-business types are preventing that from happening. The Whitecap Dakota gets it, why don't you?

But don't you see? The Whitecap Dakota "gets it" only because there is a means for you to translate and compare your values to theirs. There are no differences between what you value and their results measured according to your standards. In your case, the medium is the employement rate (which is not a true indicator of the depths of poor-er.)

A great deal of Cree people in northern Ontario were cleaved onto the HBC long before the 1700's.

Cree Autonomy: a re-examination of domestic dependence - a pretty decent little anthro paper.

Cree testimony implied that the Canadian Government had no real comprehension of what a true relationship to the land meant, placing modern societal structures of the Canadian state at a disadvantage to First Nations traditional knowledge systems.

Doesn't that sound familiar?

Edited December 2, 2011 by Shwa

[blueblood]

But don't you see? The Whitecap Dakota "gets it" only because there is a means for you to translate and compare your values to theirs. There are no differences between what you value and their results measured according to your standards. In your case, the medium is the employement rate (which is not a true indicator of the depths of poor-er.)

A great deal of Cree people in northern Ontario were cleaved onto the HBC long before the 1700's.

Cree Autonomy: a re-examination of domestic dependence - a pretty decent little anthro paper.

Doesn't that sound familiar?

And from the looks of it, those in northern ontario have been taking that attitude straight to the poorhouse.

The Whitecap Dakota happen to have a better relationship with their land and a better relationship with private enterprise. Someone's moving the goal posts. Should the whitecap dakota live in squalor like those up north for the sake of values?

[Shwa]

And from the looks of it, those in northern ontario have been taking that attitude straight to the poorhouse.

And why is that? (please no secretly sourced information, just your opinion will do)

The Whitecap Dakota happen to have a better relationship with their land and a better relationship with private enterprise. Someone's moving the goal posts. Should the whitecap dakota live in squalor like those up north for the sake of values?

Is potential equally applied to all First Nations and, if so, according to who's definitions? For example, Rama FN gives away millions to other FN's every year. Should the Cree on James Bay open a casino and golf course too?

Edited December 2, 2011 by Shwa

[blueblood]

And why is that? (please no secretly sourced information, just your opinion will do)

Is potential equally applied to all First Nations and, if so, according to who's definitions? For example, Rama FN gives away millions to other FN's every year. Should the Cree on James Bay open a casino and golf course too?

We don't know that, however if you look at what happened with the Maori in new Zealand, tswwassen in bc, and whitecap Dakota in SK, we know what can improve things.

The Cree on James bay cam either look at private enterprise help to develop any resources, which may mean deep sixing their "privileges" under the Indian act; or they can move out of James bay and move out west to where the jobs are. Or we can take your approach and make everyone poorer by keeping the status quo. The whitecap Dakota used to live in poverty, however they properly developed what little resources they had.

[jacee]

For 50%, the oil companies can afford to take the traditional methods of getting oil to market while the west coast nations deal with being poorer. I winder which ones will crack first. Sounds like the cracking has already begun.

McCleans

Like it or not, there is a trend with some first nations to get out of the typical way of doing things.

They're one of the lucky few that INAC actually deigned to negotiate a new treaty with. YOU TELL ME why INAC is dragging its heels and refusing to negotiate with others, hmm?

Hint: The Tssawassen band agreed to SURRENDER their Aboriginal rights.

It's the feds that are the roadblock.

Edited December 2, 2011 by jacee

[blueblood]

They're one of the lucky few that INAC actually deigned to negotiate a new treaty with. YOU TELL ME why INAC is dragging its heels and refusing to negotiate with others, hmm?

Hint: The Tssawassen band agreed to SURRENDER their Aboriginal rights.

And they are richer for it. They also are able to obtain bank loans. Would you rather have them live in extreme poverty again?

[fellowtraveller]

The pipelines will get built, it just may not get built there.

Correct. They can just run it down the highway or railway right of ways to the West coast, either Kitimat or Prince Rupert , Both go all the way and require nothing in the way of First Nations agreement. It will cost about 20% more, but that money is recouped quickly by not sharing profits with First Nations.

Oh well, their choice.

They should consult their brothers in the NWT Mackenzie Valley who have watched their opportunity at jobs and development disappear.

Oh well, their choice.

[Shwa]

We don't know that, however if you look at what happened with the Maori in new Zealand, tswwassen in bc, and whitecap Dakota in SK, we know what can improve things.

Who's moving the goalposts now?

The Cree on James bay cam either look at private enterprise help to develop any resources, which may mean deep sixing their "privileges" under the Indian act;

Let's see... billions of money going into the provincial and federal coffers as a result of diamond mine 90 kms from Attawapiskat. Seems to me that if they developed their resources with private enterprise, it would be the feds and provincials being deep sixed.

or they can move out of James bay and move out west to where the jobs are.

Or, more according to their own view of the world, we can give them the land and mineral use rights back and let them negotiate their future. But wait! That sort of scenario doesn't pop up in your own view of the world. Right?

Or we can take your approach and make everyone poorer by keeping the status quo.

Where have I said that my "approach" is to make everyone poor-er by "keeping the status quo?"

The whitecap Dakota used to live in poverty, however they properly developed what little resources they had.

IOW, you are saying the Attawapiskat should be building a casino and golf and country club. I mean, those De Beers employees, bush pilots and tourists have to have some place to go to drink and gamble yes? Maybe they could use the old school up there?

Edited December 2, 2011 by Shwa

[fellowtraveller]

They're one of the lucky few that INAC actually deigned to negotiate a new treaty with.YOU TELL ME why INAC is dragging its heels and refusing to negotiate with others, hmm?

Gee might it be because many BC First Nations don't have old treaties, new treaties or any treaties and never did?

Duh.

And of course many bans without treaties have taken decades to arrive at no agreements. In the meantime, the millions roll in. After the treaty, not so much. Duh.

It's business.

[jacee]

The pipelines will get built, it just may not get built there.

This coalition of First Nations formed to protect the ENTIRE BC COASTLINE, so alternate routes aren't a solution.

Aboriginal groups, also known as First Nations, say they fear the consequences of a spill from the pipeline, which would pass through some of Canada's most spectacular mountain andscape. They also oppose the idea of shipping oil from British Columbia ports. shipping oil from British Columbia ports."First Nations, whose unceded territory encompasses the entire coastline of British Columbia, have formed a united front banning all exports of tar sands crude oi through their territories," more than 60 aboriginal groups said in a statement.

[blueblood]

Let's see... billions of money going into the provincial and federal coffers as a result of diamond mine 90 kms from Attawapiskat. Seems to me that if they developed their resources with private enterprise, it would be the feds and provincials being deep sixed.

Or, more according to their own view of the world, we can give them the land and mineral use rights back and let them negotiate their future. But wait! That sort of scenario doesn't pop up in your own view of the world. Right?

Where have I said that my "approach" is to make everyone poor-er by "keeping the status quo?"

IOW, you are saying the Attawapiskat should be building a casino and golf and country club. I mean, those De Beers employees, bush pilots and tourists have to have some place to go to drink and gamble yes? Maybe they could use the old school up there?

That's who should be deep sixed was the Feds and the provinces, but someone didn't want to give up their treaty rights, so as a result the money that should have been going to the band goes to some bureaucrat in Ottawa. But they still have their treaty rights! Had they went the tswwassen route, they would be getting mining revenue as a municipality instead of the Feds.

The northern Ontario reserve should be looking at what resources they have and how they can bring them into production. For the whitecap Dakota, their resource was the highway and lots of space.

[blueblood]

Correct. They can just run it down the highway or railway right of ways to the West coast, either Kitimat or Prince Rupert , Both go all the way and require nothing in the way of First Nations agreement. It will cost about 20% more, but that money is recouped quickly by not sharing profits with First Nations.

Oh well, their choice.

They should consult their brothers in the NWT Mackenzie Valley who have watched their opportunity at jobs and development disappear.

Oh well, their choice.

Precisely and that's the max value the first nations can get with an agreement without the pipeline running down the highway or along the railway. I bet cn and cp wouldn't mind the extra revenue.

[cybercoma]

That's who should be deep sixed was the Feds and the provinces, but someone didn't want to give up their treaty rights, so as a result the money that should have been going to the band goes to some bureaucrat in Ottawa. But they still have their treaty rights! Had they went the tswwassen route, they would be getting mining revenue as a municipality instead of the Feds.

The northern Ontario reserve should be looking at what resources they have and how they can bring them into production. For the whitecap Dakota, their resource was the highway and lots of space.

They have just enough money to cover healthcare, education, etc. You want them opening a diamond mine with what capital exactly?