Canadian, American religious divide

[olp1fan]

Try to comprehend what I am saying - religion isn't one of the main topics.

If that is true why is a lot of the talk about abortion and gay marriage and sharia law?

they bring god into these topics all of the time

or the discussion of the U.S isn't a separation of church and state and that repubs always spout

Edited November 29, 2011 by olp1fan

[Guest American Woman]

If that is true why is a lot of the talk about abortion and gay marriage and sharia law?

they bring god into these topics all of the time

They talk about those same topics in Canada, too; it's the issues of abortion and gay marriage (and personally I haven't heard any talk about sharia law) that are important topics; where the candidates stand on the issues- not the candidate's religious beliefs. You apparently focus on the mention of god, whereas we focus on the actual issue and the candidate's stand on said issue.

[olp1fan]

They talk about those same topics in Canada, too; it's the issues of abortion and gay marriage (and personally I haven't heard any talk about sharia law) that are important topics; where the candidates stand on the issues- not the candidate's religious beliefs. You apparently focus on the mention of god, whereas we focus on the actual issue and the candidate's stand on said issue.

During elections? No you don't! we don't have the right wing threatening to repeal same sex marriage for votes or to defund abortion clinics

the only time you'll hear about abortion or gay marriage during an election is when the other parties try to scare the voters into voting for them cause they say the cons will repeal and defund them and that lasts maybe a day and then they are onto something else

Edited November 29, 2011 by olp1fan

[bush_cheney2004]

.....I'm not saying there isn't a difference, especially in the openness of it - quite the opposite. I'm saying that because our candidates are open about it and yours aren't, you over emphasize the role of religion in American politics, the importance of it in our campaigns, the importance to Americans. It appears to be much more important in many Canadians' minds.

Quite true...American news media is produced primarily for Americans to be digested in an American context. That some Canadians choose to watch or read such things from their own perspective and biases doesn't mean their interpretation is reality. An American could/would make the same error watching the opening day rituals for Canada's parliament, complete with Black Rod's throne theatrics.

[olp1fan]

this article explains it well

http://open.salon.com/blog/maurice_tougas/2011/09/13/religion_and_politics_an_unholy_mix

Maybe you're the one not seeing your country the right way AW...cause clearly from here religion seems to be one of the most important factors in American Politics

[olp1fan]

That some Canadians choose to watch or read such things from their own perspective and biases doesn't mean their interpretation is reality.

Or maybe you're just so used to religion in your politics that you don't realize it is that intertwined

and that maybe you need outside eyes to gain real perspective

[cybercoma]

Try to comprehend what I am saying - religion isn't one of the main topics.

I'm not sure how you can even make this claim.

I brought up the "Culture Wars" in another thread. I'm not sure how you could be so blind to the entire framework of the political debate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_war

After giving that a peruse, if you still don't see that religion is the driving force behind politics in America, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

[Guest American Woman]

this article explains it well

http://open.salon.com/blog/maurice_tougas/2011/09/13/religion_and_politics_an_unholy_mix

Maybe you're the one not seeing your country the right way AW...cause clearly from here religion seems to be one of the most important factors in American Politics

Riiiight, it's me not seeing my country "the right way," things are "clearly" the way they are perceived to be "from [there.]"

The key words are "seems to be." What "seems to be" to someone not living in the U.S., to someone not involved the way Americans are, who doesn't care about the same things to the same degree Americans do, what "seems to be" and 'what is' are often very different things.

[cybercoma]

Oh and for someone who is so sensitive to "insults", you're certainly quite insulting yourself with passive aggressive remarks like,

Try to comprehend what I am saying

That's so much better than just calling someone stupid or an idiot.

[guyser]

No it wasn't. Nearly half of Toronto's population wasn't born in Toronto. It's more mixed than Montreal. I love Montreal, but Toronto is far more multicultural.

Thats today and the recent past, but back in 1975 TO was if not a WASP city, it certainly was WASP-ish in style attitude and demeanor.

It included the drunks too (Irish) even tho they were Catholic.

(I kid about the Irish)

[cybercoma]

Racist stereotypes aren't funny.

[olp1fan]

Riiiight, it's me not seeing my country "the right way," things are "clearly" the way they are perceived to be "from [there.]"

The key words are "seems to be." What "seems to be" to someone not living in the U.S., to someone not involved the way Americans are, who doesn't care about the same things to the same degree Americans do, what "seems to be" and 'what is' are often very different things.

It doesn't help when you have Rick Perry and his prayer groups, or Michelle Bachmann and her religious pray the gay away counseling, Obama and his reverend all over the place, Rick Santourms religious spiels same for Pawlenty, Romney, Palin

[g_bambino]

No, there's not. That's simply your perception as an outsider. Before Obama, you all would have been saying that there are race barriers.

Of course it's my perception, just as what you are expressing is your perception, and I maintain that the subject of religion does have more prominence in American political discourse. I also perceive that race is given little to no place in the same arena; the consensus on whether or not that is a subject worthy of consideration shifted decades ago. Perhaps in 40 years' time the importance currently given to religion will also have dissipated; but, it's doubtful (though not impossible) that there will be a non-Christian president any time soon.

Our candidates are outspoken about it and that's ok with the American voters. Your country isn't ok with it - but it's the same emphasis, only your concern is that they don't mention it.

More than just okay with it, there are enough American voters concerned about politicians' religious views and the conviction with which they're held that politicians will publicly challenge each other on it and mainstream media outlets dedicate airtime, column space, and bytes to discussing and pressing politicians on the matter; is he really a Christian? Is he (gasp!) a Muslim? Is he Christian enough? Who's more Christian than who? Religion is a central subject in the American political discourse.

That doesn't happen in Canada since, for the typical Canadian, a politician's religion is a personal matter that should be irrelevant to the public office he holds or is campaigning for. A politician like Harper knows or learns to minimise public expressions of faith not because Canadians demand it never be mentioned, but because the more it's mentioned, the more it will undermine his chances of election or re-election, since doing so leads most Canadian voters to start suspiciously wondering just how much influence religious dogma has over his decisions as compared to fact-based rationality. The more of the latter versus the former, the less qualified for his job the individual seems to be in the eyes of the Canadian public.

More Americans feel religion (and associated values) is an important component of governance than do Canadians.

[ed: +, c/e]

Edited November 29, 2011 by g_bambino

[olp1fan]

since doing so leads most Canadian voters to start suspiciously wondering just how much influence religious dogma has over his decisions as compared to fact-based rationality.

Now that Harper has a majority his agenda has come our fully, he won't survive the next election solely because he ignores fact based rationality

[g_bambino]

Now that Harper has a majority his agenda has come our fully, he won't survive the next election solely because he ignores fact based rationality

I don't believe he ignores it or doesn't exercise it, even though I disagree with, or at least question, many of his decisions; he seems mostly reasonable, if not right (in my opinion). He certainly doesn't appear to be making decisions based on what the Bible or some imagined bearded deity in the clouds said.

[Guest American Woman]

It doesn't help when you have Rick Perry and his prayer groups, or Michelle Bachmann and her religious pray the gay away counseling, Obama and his reverend all over the place, Rick Santourms religious spiels same for Pawlenty, Romney, Palin

How do you even remember this stuff? I sure don't remember it; it hasn't made enough of an impression to stick with me - if I even knew about it to begin with. Which is exactly what I'm saying - you find this all-important for some reason, so it stands out in your mind. It's exaggerated in your mind. It's what you focus on, so it becomes bigger in your mind.

What Americans ultimately find important is what sticks in their minds. Look at the exit polls last election - Americans cared first and foremost about the economy. They cared about the war in Iraq. Terrorism. Health care. Energy. Notice the absence of caring about the religious beliefs of the candidate.

Again. Yes, in America we are more open about our religious beliefs, more open about talking about them. Harper used to, until he was criticized. It was "too American," according to the criticism. That's where the problem apparently lies - not in being too religious, but in being too American. If the U.S. were to become a nation of atheists tomorrow, I swear we'd see the importance that religion plays in the lives of many of these Canadians rise over night.

For the record, how many non-Christians has Canada has for PM? Yet the focus seems to be on whether or not the U.S. would ever have a non-Christian president.

Edited to add: Just for fun, I did a Google search for "Stephen Harper Christian." About 3,920,000 results (0.19 seconds)

But no, no one cares about the PM's religion in Canada.

Edited November 29, 2011 by American Woman

[olp1fan]

How do you even remember this stuff? I sure don't remember it; it hasn't made enough of an impression to stick with me - if I even knew about it to begin with. Which is exactly what I'm saying - you find this all-important for some reason, so it stands out in your mind. It's exaggerated in your mind. It's what you focus on, so it becomes bigger in your mind.

I read a lot and I have a pretty sharp memory

[msj]

Edited to add: Just for fun, I did a Google search for "Stephen Harper Christian." About 3,920,000 results (0.19 seconds)

But no, no one cares about the PM's religion in Canada.

Rick Perry Christian gets 103 million.

Michelle Bachmann gets around 45 million.

And those people are not even as important as Stephen Harper!

Obama Christian comes up with 331 million.

So, relatively speaking, the point of the OP still stands: the US is more about religion than Canada.

--------

Edited to add rolly eyes. Next time someone complains about the use of emoticons I must remember this thread as evidence of how effective they are at communicating a point.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic with respect to AW's stupid, stupid google "proof."

Edited November 30, 2011 by msj

[bush_cheney2004]

...So, relatively speaking, the point of the OP still stands: the US is more about religion than Canada.

Logical fallacy....let's google for water:

Canada + water = 50,800,000 hits

US + water = 2,650,000,000 hits

Can one conclude there is more water in the United States than in Canada based on google search results?

[cybercoma]

Logical fallacy....let's google for water:

Canada + water = 50,800,000 hits

US + water = 2,650,000,000 hits

Can one conclude there is more water in the United States than in Canada based on google search results?

You're just supporting msj's point. It was AW who began the Google search conclusions.

[Guest American Woman]

I read a lot and I have a pretty sharp memory

What you read and/or focus on is pretty selective if talk of religion is so prevalent in your mind. I repeat. It's not a main issue. Again. Look at the polls regarding what the main issues are. As I already pointed out, the economy was by far the major issue in the last election. Then there was the Iraq war, terrorism, health care, energy. "Religion" is not in there. It's not the major issue that you perceive it to be.

As I pointed out with the "Stephen Harper Christian" Google search - there has been plenty written about Harper and religion too. I have a sharp memory myself, and I recall the talk about Harper and his religion. That you have chosen not to read it, not to focus on it, doesn't mean it's not there. Yes, it's been toned down - as I've already addressed.

Fact is, more is written about the U.S. - there's always more of a world wide focus on the U.S. - doesn't mean that we are focusing on something the way the rest of the world is.

Edited November 30, 2011 by American Woman

[olp1fan]

the economy is the main issue yet all i hear them talk about is bombing iran.. banning gay marriage and restricting abortion

Edited November 30, 2011 by olp1fan

[Guest American Woman]

Rick Perry Christian gets 103 million.

Michelle Bachmann gets around 45 million.

And those people are not even as important as Stephen Harper!

Obama Christian comes up with 331 million.

So, relatively speaking, the point of the OP still stands: the US is more about religion than Canada.

--------

Edited to add rolly eyes. Next time someone complains about the use of emoticons I must remember this thread as evidence of how effective they are at communicating a point.

Yes, I'm being sarcastic with respect to AW's stupid, stupid google "proof."

My "Google proof" proves exactly what I wanted to prove. Apparently you totally missed my point.

There has been a lot written about Harper and religion too. Did you truly miss that point? I didn't say there was MORE written about Harper. For a country one tenth the size of the U.S., without the world wide focus that is put on the U.S., my Google search proved just what I wanted to show. That you chose to ignore what is shows and instead moved the goalposts (or perhaps truly didn't get the point I was making), doesn't change that fact.

It appears as if you are trying to prove that the higher Google numbers proves that it's more of an issue to Americans, but bush_cheney points out the fallacy of that conclusion. Furthermore, as I've said a bajillion times now, we are more open about it in the U.S.; we do talk about it more, so of course there would be more written about it. The rest of the world writes more about it too, focuses on it, putting more articles/discussion out there. The rest of the world doesn't discuss Canada's elections to the same extent, so of course there would be even more out there. That doesn't mean it's a major issue to Americans when they vote. How much is out there is not directly related to how important an issue it is to Americans.

Edited November 30, 2011 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

the economy is the main issue yet all i hear them talk about is bombing iran.. banning gay marriage and restricting abortion

Which proves my point. "All [you] hear them talk about" isn't synonymous with all that's being said and/or what's important to Americans. Your interest in the candidates is different from Americans' interest in the candidates.

[olp1fan]

Which proves my point. "All [you] hear them talk about" isn't synonymous with all that's being said and/or what's important to Americans. Your interest in the candidates is different from Americans' interest in the candidates.

hey im just reading your media... cnn, foxnews, huffington post, washington post, new york times, detroit free press, boston globe