U.S. F-35 program could be on chopping block

[Guest Derek L]

Very impressive. Carmichael bagged a MiG in one of those.

You bet My father and I both were disappointed, in a otherwise very well done series, that History Channel’s show “Dogfights” never covered the engagement….

[DogOnPorch]

You bet My father and I both were disappointed, in a otherwise very well done series, that History Channel’s show “Dogfights” never covered the engagement….

Sounds like your dad and mine would have been close buds. He and his brothers were all in the RCAF. He was training on Lancasters when the war ended...all of 17 years old...lol.

[Shwa]

Your strawman attempt to make me look like a Berlusconi supporter is as lame as painting this overblown playboy as the facist Mussolini.

a Berlusconi supporter...

[dre]

All of that is simply speculation (we don't know what production models will cost, but we know they will probably cost less than the LRIP examples right now, and besides, I already explained what he said. $75M is not necessarily in flyable condition, but it is the oct of the aircraft itself. There are other costs that are either included in the purchase budget, or that will be included in the first 20 year service agreement.

Read the article again. Its that 75 million dollar base price that he says is unrealistic.

The government estimates the total cost for buying and operating the new F-35 fleet at $9 billion, based on a per unit cost of $75 million US. Those figures don't match with an analysis done by Page. He recently released a report putting the cost of each F-35 plane at around $148 million.

This particular guy recommends basically the same thing I did...

Calling the F-35 a “gigantic performance disappointment,” Winslow said the aircraft has sluggish aerodynamics, and its performance as a bomber is average. He said Canada should pursue a “fly-before-you-buy” strategy, where several are aircraft are tested before a contract is signed.

Other analysis Iv read say that its virtually impossible to know how much the plane will cost at this point.

This are all common and well documented bad procurement practices.

Buy before you fly = Bad.

Early Tech Adoption = Bad.

Buying before the price is known = Bad.

Buying the most expensive option when you have no money = Bad.

[DogOnPorch]

a Berlusconi supporter...

You're the rhymes with 'thought' that brought him up.

[Shwa]

For those here wanting Canada to buy Russian jets: can you name one conflict where the MiG or Sukhoi emerged victorious over Western designs? Any?

Yes because the planes actually fought each other. LOFL!

[DogOnPorch]

Yes because the planes actually fought each other. LOFL!

That's right...there are none.

[Guest Derek L]

Sounds like your dad and mine would have been close buds. He and his brothers were all in the RCAF. He was training on Lancasters when the war ended...all of 17 years old...lol.

I think so!! My father was born in ‘31, so obviously missed the war, but his two older brothers both served, one flying Swordfish, and his eldest brother (who was killed in accident/mechanical fault) was a Coastal Command navigator on Catalina’s……..But he joined the FAA in ’48 at seventeen……As I mentioned flew Sea Fury’s during the Korean War, briefly Avengers, then Gannets (during Suez) with the RN FAA, then very briefly again Avengers and Trackers with the RCN.

[DogOnPorch]

I think so!! My father was born in ‘31, so obviously missed the war, but his two older brothers both served, one flying Swordfish, and his eldest brother (who was killed in accident/mechanical fault) was a Coastal Command navigator on Catalina’s……..But he joined the FAA in ’48 at seventeen……As I mentioned flew Sea Fury’s during the Korean War, briefly Avengers, then Gannets (during Suez) with the RN FAA, then very briefly again Avengers and Trackers with the RCN.

Very cool. After the war, dad got into auto sales and bush piloting. A bit of a switch. He died this summer...still getting over not having him around to tell his tales.

[Shwa]

That's right...there are none.

None. If we have military experts like you advising, God help us:

North Vietnamese Aces

While only two American pilots became aces in the Vietnam War - Randy "Duke" Cunningham (USN) and Steve Ritchie (USAF) - sixteen Vietnamese pilots earned that honor.

All in rickety little MiGs.

Hey, maybe the Russians would kick in some AK's too.

[DogOnPorch]

The North Vietnamese lost the air war over Viet-Nam. The kill ratio was comparable to Korea after 1965.

[DogOnPorch]

The engagement of May 10th, 1972...a date famous in aviation...which is the engagement Slaw speaks of, was no North Vietnamese victory plus recent finds suggests that the infamous Major Tomb (or Toon) never existed for real...just a propaganda ploy. Either way...the Reds got theirs in that fight and Cunningham and Driscoll lived to fight another day thanks to the durability of the F-4J Phantom.

http://www.vaq136.com/migaces/index.html

Edited November 16, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[Guest Derek L]

Very cool. After the war, dad got into auto sales and bush piloting. A bit of a switch. He died this summer...still getting over not having him around to tell his tales.

Sorry to hear, they’re defiantly getting fewer……When my father retired from the RCN (Prior to Unification), flew DC-6s for Wardair, then Dash-7s with Air BC until he retired…….Luckily he’s still rather healthy physically (I don’t know how, he only quite smoking five years ago) and with his (dark) Scottish humour, has told the family he doesn’t have plans to leave (his children with his home) anytime soon…..We’re hoping he keeps ticking and his marbles for at least a few more years……..My Daughter plans to go to RMC and would very much like to fly Auroras or Cyclones eventually, so we hope the old bugger lives to see it.

[Shwa]

The North Vietnamese lost the air war over Viet-Nam. The kill ratio was comparable to Korea after 1965.

Yeah, but they contributed to winning the war overall, even though they lost the kill ratio on the ground too.

[DogOnPorch]

Sorry to hear, they’re defiantly getting fewer……When my father retired from the RCN (Prior to Unification), flew DC-6s for Wardair, then Dash-7s with Air BC until he retired…….Luckily he’s still rather healthy physically (I don’t know how, he only quite smoking five years ago) and with his (dark) Scottish humour, has told the family he doesn’t have plans to leave (his children with his home) anytime soon…..We’re hoping he keeps ticking and his marbles for at least a few more years……..My Daughter plans to go to RMC and would very much like to fly Auroras or Cyclones eventually, so we hope the old bugger lives to see it.

Well, it would be an honour and a pleasure to share a Scotch Whisky with you someday.

I just loved flying in the old DC-6s....one felt like one was flying unlike today's high soaring jets. I'd always poke my way up into the cockpit by SOME means. Now there was a complex and crowded flight deck. I ended up with a virtual one in FS2004 that had every knob and switch functional...just turning the bugger on took a guide book and an hour of time.

For example...

http://www.calclassic.com/

Oh...and thanks.

Edited November 16, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

Yeah, but they contributed to winning the war overall, even though they lost the kill ratio on the ground too.

Means nothing. The airwar over Viet-nam was terribly effective at bringing North Viet-Nam to its knees. It was folks such as yourself working for the enemy at home that lost the Viet-Nam War to the Communists.

[DogOnPorch]

Hey...I've flow in Ward Air DC-6s from YXS to YVR back in the 1960s and early 70s lots and lots of times.

[Guest Derek L]

Well, it would be an honour and a pleasure to share a Scotch Whisky with you someday.

I just loved flying in the old DC-6s....one felt like one was flying unlike today's high soaring jets. I'd always poke my way up into the cockpit by SOME means. Now there was a complex and crowded flight deck. I ended up with a virtual one in FS2004 that had every knob and switch functional...just turning the bugger on took a guide book and an hour of time.

For example...

http://www.calclassic.com/

Oh...and thanks.

Indeed……..It’s ironic that he flew the bloody things, but can’t work his DVD player, which we bought, along with a bunch of war movies/documentaries (Including Dogfights lol) for him a few Christmases ago…….I wouldn’t dare trying to teach him how to work a computer, and my mother (in her early 70s) makes sure he’s in bed prior to playing online bridge.

.....Talk of Ebay & Online banking is a taboo subject in that household

[olp1fan]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2011/11/15/f-35-fighter-jets.html

The air force will have less than half its fleet of new F-35 fighter jets in place when it comes time to retire the aging CF-18s, and will only receive one stealth jet in the first year of the program, government estimates reveal.

The delivery of all 65 jets is being spread out between 2016 and 2023, with most of the radar-evading aircraft arriving after 2019, according to internal Defence Department figures.

[DogOnPorch]

Indeed……..It’s ironic that he flew the bloody things, but can’t work his DVD player, which we bought, along with a bunch of war movies/documentaries (Including Dogfights lol) for him a few Christmases ago…….I wouldn’t dare trying to teach him how to work a computer, and my mother (in her early 70s) makes sure he’s in bed prior to playing online bridge.

.....Talk of Ebay & Online banking is a taboo subject in that household

Yeah...mine was the same re: new technology beyond his GPS...which he loved. Never did get computers though he owned several. Pre GPS he had all the LORAN stuff for his planes which was always a blast to play with up high.

[Smallc]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2011/11/15/f-35-fighter-jets.html

The air force will have less than half its fleet of new F-35 fighter jets in place when it comes time to retire the aging CF-18s, and will only receive one stealth jet in the first year of the program, government estimates reveal.

The delivery of all 65 jets is being spread out between 2016 and 2023, with most of the radar-evading aircraft arriving after 2019, according to internal Defence Department figures.

Except that the headline is misleading, as the rest of the article shows.

[DogOnPorch]

Except that the headline is misleading, as the rest of the article shows.

A misleading CBC headline? Never!!

[Guest Derek L]

Hey...I've flow in Ward Air DC-6s from YXS to YVR back in the 1960s and early 70s lots and lots of times.

Well if you remember any flight crew members that spoke with a thick Scottish accent and held a remarkable resemblance with Karl Stromberg , you might have been on one of his flights

[DogOnPorch]

Well if you remember any flight crew members that spoke with a thick Scottish accent and held a remarkable resemblance with Karl Stromberg , you might have been on one of his flights

Murky memories...but I imagine the probability is quite high that he was my pilot at some point if he flew that route.

[Bonam]

The f35 program isn't getting scrapped.