wyly Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 True, but labour and management aren't small considerations either. Like I said, this is the public's fault. We need to create a new public to address this. Right now, the politicians pay more attention to mass media and 'impressions'... a new public would be mindful of the past, pay attention to detail and influence others. well good luck educating the public on the matter, joe public loves to complain but not learn...what we need are politicians with the balls to step up and tell people how it is, and not worry so much about their own political future/pensions... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Michael Hardner Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 well good luck educating the public on the matter, joe public loves to complain but not learn...what we need are politicians with the balls to step up and tell people how it is, and not worry so much about their own political future/pensions... Joe Public is old public - basically TV watching public... he replaced an even older public We need a newer public... Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
dre Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 (edited) Joe Public is old public - basically TV watching public... he replaced an even older public We need a newer public... You need to get people really pissed off before they will get interested. Either the system will have to serve a majority or large minority of people very poorly, or the ammount of taxes/premiums/fees they pay, and the percentage of GDP spent on healthcare becomes blatantly excessive. And right now the system we have isnt TERRIBLE. Its definately lacklustre and below average in terms of comparable nations, but it still serves a majority of people pretty well, and it serves power interests in the healthcare industry REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY well. Edited November 5, 2011 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Michael Hardner Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 And right now the system we have isnt TERRIBLE. Its definately lacklustre and below average in terms of comparable nations, but it still serves a majority of people pretty well, and it serves power interests in the healthcare industry REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY well. I agree that it works well enough, but it's not getting better and it seems to be set up to do worse over time, especially without a public to hold the stakeholders responsible for performance and costs. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
dre Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 I agree that it works well enough, but it's not getting better and it seems to be set up to do worse over time, especially without a public to hold the stakeholders responsible for performance and costs. I agree with you, im not arguing the point. Im just pointing out that things will have to get pretty bad for your "new public" to emerge. it's not getting better and it seems to be set up to do worse over time Obviously based on current trends the system wont work for long. The cost of healthcare cannot increase faster than workers wages for long. A 5 year old should be able to understand that. But if you look at the choices government has... Its pretty clear why there will have to be a major meltdown before people get serious about reform, much like we had to have the financial crisis in order to get people talking about reforms there. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Michael Hardner Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 I agree with you, im not arguing the point. Im just pointing out that things will have to get pretty bad for your "new public" to emerge. If we wait until then, we will have to settle for a last minute solution, and I'll bet you that means a heavy private involvement. Because we're not being conscientious about it now, this will happen later IMO and we're to blame. But if you look at the choices government has... Its pretty clear why there will have to be a major meltdown before people get serious about reform, much like we had to have the financial crisis in order to get people talking about reforms there. Exactly. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
dre Posted November 5, 2011 Report Posted November 5, 2011 (edited) If we wait until then, we will have to settle for a last minute solution, and I'll bet you that means a heavy private involvement. Because we're not being conscientious about it now, this will happen later IMO and we're to blame. Exactly. Absolutely! This scenario is a privatizers wet dream! They definately would love to see the public system go downhill. Still... they have a big challenge ahead of them because no rational look at the data points points to privatization being a solution to the problem. We are seeing the same kind of increase in costs in both of those areas. That is because as I said before most of this has to do with macro-economic conditions, and not directly how healthcare widgets are produced and delivered. We could be having this same conversation about say... college tuition. We are in even worse shape there. Consider the following picture Mike... http://satyagraha.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/inflation-factors-2.jpg Notice how both medical and college costs have increased way faster than everything else on average... why is that? Pretty simple really... both of those systems are very similar in terms of how they operate. They are both very "domestic" by nature, and both industries have a certain ammount of natural defense against the implementation of the practices that have brought costs down or held them in check everywhere else. Powerfull and well organized labor force... tough to offshore... etc. These industries are a couple of the least "globalized". This is the problem about having some industries protected from global competition (regardless what form that protection takes), and having some that arent. You get massive cost inflation for the ones that arent. Put quite simply these industries basically exist in completely different economies. I know these macro conditions are not the angle that personally interests you, but I keep trying to shoe-horn them back into the discussion because IMO this is totally key to understanding the best way forward. To get price stability in these industries wages and costs need to increase/descrease at the same rate that wages and prices are increasing in all the other industries that employ canadians. Edited November 5, 2011 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
wyly Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 Joe Public is old public - basically TV watching public... he replaced an even older public We need a newer public... agreed but I don't have your optimism that will ever happen... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Evening Star Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 Dre and Michael, what are some other models you would recommend that we look to if we want to reform our system? Are there other systems that you think are working better? I often hear good things about the French, Japanese, and Swedish systems. Quote
wyly Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 You need to get people really pissed off before they will get interested. Either the system will have to serve a majority or large minority of people very poorly, or the ammount of taxes/premiums/fees they pay, and the percentage of GDP spent on healthcare becomes blatantly excessive. the argument against that would be the US healthcare system, it's screwed up beyond belief and yet there is no significant change, stupid people just dig in their heels and insist on remaining stupid... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 Dre and Michael, what are some other models you would recommend that we look to if we want to reform our system? Are there other systems that you think are working better? I often hear good things about the French, Japanese, and Swedish systems. our healthcare system is awesome it justs needs to be funded properly, people need to accept that healthcare is expensive you can't have low taxes and great healthcare...complain about your taxes and the talking heads(self serving politicians) will cut your taxes at the expense of healthcare or related education...if our healthcare has problems it's because we(voters) do it to ourselves... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
dre Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) our healthcare system is awesome it justs needs to be funded properly, people need to accept that healthcare is expensive you can't have low taxes and great healthcare...complain about your taxes and the talking heads(self serving politicians) will cut your taxes at the expense of healthcare or related education...if our healthcare has problems it's because we(voters) do it to ourselves... Our healthcare system is lacklustre and below average at best. Our spending per capita is the 5th highest. But we are ranked about 30th. Thats the problem with your idea of just dumping more and more money into the system. There are serious structural problems, and put quite simply: We dont get what we pay for. Edited November 6, 2011 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Smallc Posted November 6, 2011 Author Report Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) But we are ranked about 30th. That study had many problems, and was during a time of severe underfunding for our system. Our system, measured just a few years later, was rated as one of the best in the OECD for preventing death. Of course, improvements can always be made, but they aren't generally easy. Edited November 6, 2011 by Smallc Quote
dre Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 That study had many problems, and was during a time of severe underfunding for our system. Our system, measured just a few years later, was rated as one of the best in the OECD for preventing death. Of course, improvements can always be made, but they aren't generally easy. Thats the WHO ranking for this year. And yeah... like I said before. Its not TERRIBLE. Just lack lustre and below average for what we spend. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Smallc Posted November 6, 2011 Author Report Posted November 6, 2011 This year? Was there some 2011 report that I missed? Quote
wyly Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 Our healthcare system is lacklustre and below average at best. Our spending per capita is the 5th highest. But we are ranked about 30th. Thats the problem with your idea of just dumping more and more money into the system. There are serious structural problems, and put quite simply: We dont get what we pay for. there's only one health stat that really matters, life expectancy...canada comes in at 12th, of those ahead of us several aren't even countries, Guernsey, jersey, macau, might as well pick an exclusive neighbourhood with a hospital in canada and add it to the list to skew the results...of the countries that we can consider real only 4 rate better than ours, 1st Japan but it's suspect as it's been discovered that numerous pensioners are actually dead, and relatives kept collecting pension cheques and avoid telling authorites...that leaves singapore, italy and australia...singapore is an anomoly, it's success has a lot to due to it's very small size and wealth...italy is much smaller than canada and australia so access to healthcare is easier...so that leaves australia and canada, large countries with access issues due to remote communities, and the difference between us in lifespan is 4 months... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
dre Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 (edited) This year? Was there some 2011 report that I missed? No! You didnt miss anything SC. I did. I typed 2011 WHO RANKINGS clicked a link, and scraped some data off the page. I apologize. I got my information re: Canada ranked 30th... from a source that is a decade old. Youre absolutely right, and thats totally my mistake. Edited November 6, 2011 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Michael Hardner Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 our healthcare system is awesome it justs needs to be funded properly, people need to accept that healthcare is expensive you can't have low taxes and great healthcare...complain about your taxes and the talking heads(self serving politicians) will cut your taxes at the expense of healthcare or related education...if our healthcare has problems it's because we(voters) do it to ourselves... You highlighted some other problems previously in the thread: the bigger maybe the biggest is political interference, politicians who have zero knowledge of healthcare sticking their noses in it and screwing things up...the public gets pissed by wait times or ER service (and rightly so) politicians come to the rescue rearrange the deck chairs to no effect until the next crisis or election.. You can lower taxes and improve healthcare, if you first invest the resources and effort to reset the big problems with it. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Smallc Posted November 6, 2011 Author Report Posted November 6, 2011 No! You didnt miss anything. I did. You are correct, there doesnt seem to be any new WHO rankings published. I apologize for that SC. Yeah, the only reports that I know of are the 2000 one which was apparently very flawed, and the 2003 one, which was less flawed, but also less broad. Quote
dre Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 Yeah, the only reports that I know of are the 2000 one which was apparently very flawed, and the 2003 one, which was less flawed, but also less broad. I have read a bit about those rankings though, and Im not sure how flawed they are. Most of the factors they considred seemed to make sense to me, and Iv yet to see a person who dismisses WHO rankings provide me with any better analysis. Why were they flawed? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Smallc Posted November 6, 2011 Author Report Posted November 6, 2011 Why were they flawed? I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but the flaws in the first study apparently directly resulted in the second one. I think part of the problem is that the first study considered far to many things, and that the results were often contradictory and war sometimes comparing things that healthcare systems couldn't in fact fix. The second study, IIRC, considered only the ability of a system to prevent death, and Canada's high ranking, considering the logistics of this country, is actually very impressive. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 agreed but I don't have your optimism that will ever happen... We are a kind of new public, and traditionally every new medium such as the web brings great upheaval. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
wyly Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 We are a kind of new public, and traditionally every new medium such as the web brings great upheaval. maybe we are but how many are there of us?... count the number taking part on this thread out of how many who visited this site today? or since this thread was started...those of us on this thread do care even though we disagree on how to do it or where the problems lie, there just aren't very many of us... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Michael Hardner Posted November 6, 2011 Report Posted November 6, 2011 maybe we are but how many are there of us?... count the number taking part on this thread out of how many who visited this site today? or since this thread was started...those of us on this thread do care even though we disagree on how to do it or where the problems lie, there just aren't very many of us... No, but the number of new media users grows, while TV news watchers will erode over time. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Smallc Posted November 6, 2011 Author Report Posted November 6, 2011 Sure...but if internet comments sections are any indiction, new media isn't helping many people..... Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.