On Health Care

[Argus]

Might be to those lacking comprehension skills. I wouldn't know.

Lack of comprehension when reading your posts seems not an uncommon problem among the readers here.

The system isn't benefiting from Canadians being sent here because of lack of facilities/services in Canada - the medical centers/personnel are.

Which is what constitutes your system -- such as it is.

You need a number to justify it?? Good grief.

Any underlying logic - presuming you're familiar with the concept - which would suggest life savings from having far too many diagnostic machines in a given locality will do.

And why do you think Canada sends patients to the U.S. when lacking the "gizmos" needed rather than letting the patients die?

I would suppose they do so because they know there are a lot of gizmos sitting around not being used at any given moment, and so both they and the local hospital administrators are saving some money by using them.

[Guest American Woman]

There are certain Canadians that get sent to the states, very high-profile cases. Take a case one time where a boy was born with a growth problem on his face, the "elephant man" scenario - he was so high-profile he was on Dr. Oz or the Doctors I believe? He ended up with a doctor that was willing to do the surgery for FREE and did a miracle job at that.

I'm pretty sure that the family was in Canada, but they weren't in the states for sure.

In that situation, would I trust the local hospital with that? Frick no!

There have also been cases of lack of beds for maternity patients, especially if a neo natal ICU is needed. I recall reading scathing criticism out of a Canadian media outlet because the U.S. didn't allow an ambulance in one instance to just speed on through the border, basically bypassing customs. Other cases I've read about not involving maternity have been much less sensational than "the elephant man scenario."

It is a fact that some Canadians have to be sent to the States because Canada lacks the facilities/services, but those blindly supporting the Canadian system - 'it's better than the U.S.'s' is all that they apparently need to believe - can't seem to recognize that.

I know our system fails some. I know it also does a most excellent job of providing care for others.

Canada's system also fails some - and would fail more if the U.S. couldn't/didn't take them in. I know it also does a most excellent job of providing care for others.

Just seems to me that health care is one area that Canadians have felt superior to the U.S., and I think it prevents critical thought about the actual state of the system/need for improvement/reality of the situation in some's minds.

The majority of Americans recognize that we need improvement/changes, but finding a system that will work without taking away from the facilities/services that we are privileged with now will be a balancing act. It needs to be a solution that is the best it can be for all involved.

Edited September 18, 2011 by American Woman

[Argus]

That statement right there exposes your ignorance.

Why do you suppose that of all the nations on this planet, something like 180 I guess, precisely NONE want to use your type of medical 'system'? Every single national government over the last fifty years has looked at your system, rolled their collective eyes, and set out to build a public system instead.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Argus

[Guest American Woman]

Every single national government over the last fifty years has looked at your system....

Wow. I'm really flattered that every single national government over the last fifty years has looked at our system.

Edited September 18, 2011 by American Woman

[Squeakbox]

I want a number because you made a claim, are sensationalizing that claim, and refuse to back it up with any tangible evidence. I want to know what services and facilities are seriously lacking in Canada and how many Canadians are being sent to the States to make up for it. You claim it's enough to subsidize the entire multi-billion dollar American healthcare system. I find that incredibly hard to believe since the entire population of Canada is roughly that of the state of California. So, if you can't provide any evidence whatsoever to backup the claim that you're making, then I'll just go ahead and assume you're full of shit.

We need to go back to a real incident that happened in a Canadian hospital, and I've been to the hospital and have been at the expense of the stupidity of the nurses at hospitals, I've witnessed it's potential to disaster:

http://www.infowars.com/socialized-healthcare-canada-man-dies-in-waiting-room-after-34-hours/

I was in the emergency room for 3 DAYS before I got my gallbladder removed, and because of the wait I ended up with a blood infection. Not only that, but when I needed to unplug my IV machine to go to the washroom, the nurse standing there ignored me, and started jumping in place clapping her hands (no bs). So, if you ask me, some of the nurses in hospitals are just plain retarded.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Squeakbox

[reggiehenry]

In Today's time there are very limited offers to remain healthy. Firstly body check as well as to remain mentally healthy one should have to take some good information generated helps patients and their families understand what treatments work best and how treatment risks compare, while allowing for choices for each individual patient.

Health care speakers

[Shakeyhands]

For Shona Holmes, simple pleasures such as playing with her dog or walking in her plush garden are a gift.

That's another Canadian who "won" - thanks to the Mayo clinic. She had to go to the States for treatment because she couldn't get in to see a specialist in Canada in due time.

"They said to me that you had a brain tumor and it was pressing on your optic chasm and that it needed to come out immediately," Holmes said.

Holmes is Canadian, but the "they" she refers to are doctors at the Mayo Clinic in the United States, where she turned after specialists in her own government-run health care system would not see her fast enough.

"My family doctor at that time tried to get me in to see an endocrinologist and a neurologist," Holmes recalled. "It was going to be four months for one specialist and six months for the other."

Even with the warning from U.S. doctors in hand, Holmes said she still couldn't get in to see Canadian specialists.

Reality check: Canada's government health care system

Fact Check

Link

[Sir Bandelot]

So what. Some Americans come here to buy their prescription meds because they're cheaper. At least they did, until their government shut that down by making it illegal, and saying that Canadian meds are not of the same quality standards. Just complete lies. It's the same companies and technology, and conforms to the same level of quality set by international standards. But since American big pahrma wasn't getting their cut, the government steps in. I don't think Canada would ever bother.

The statistical evidence shows that the number of Canadians using the US system is small. About 0.25% of people who use the health care system. Yeah, it's a sure sign that we're falling apart.

[GostHacked]

I prefer the American model of 60 years ago, prior to the government take over of health care. There is nothing wrong with insurance though, as a means of covering catastrophic care. It's actually quite practical. This idea, on the other hand, that we should get things for free is nonsense. Why stop at health care? Why not have every industry giving out things for free? Of course that would be total economic disaster. How many people have died because our health care system isn't good enough? Because the market hasn't been able to work here, like it works in electronics and other industries? How much money do we waste on inefficient bureaucracies?

We don't get it for free, we pay for it with our taxes.

[Guest American Woman]

We don't get it for free, we pay for it with our taxes.

Some people get it for free, some get a lot more than they pay for, while some get a lot less than what they pay for.

[GostHacked]

Some people get it for free, some get a lot more than they pay for, while some get a lot less than what they pay for.

Some may get it for free, depending on the circumstances, yes agreed. However overall, health care is paid for by a tax on Canadians. So while there may be some exception, overall my statement is true.

[bush_cheney2004]

Some people get it for free, some get a lot more than they pay for, while some get a lot less than what they pay for.

Doesn't matter...what is more important is the political perception that every Canadian is treated equally, even though we know they are not, even in the same province. Trying to run such a system right next to the wild American health care market presents several challenges, including expectations for some patients who grow weary of patriotically waiting....waiting....waiting....

[Guest American Woman]

Some Americans come here to buy their prescription meds because they're cheaper. At least they did, until their government shut that down by making it illegal, and saying that Canadian meds are not of the same quality standards.

The government did not "shut that down," it's been technically illegal, but it's one of those things that's just not enforced as long as people are only crossing the border with a three-month/personal use supply.

Just complete lies.

The government never said Canadians meds are not of the same quality standards, it said that Canadian drugs aren't held to FDA standards, and that is a true statement; and speaking of the FDA, this is what " a senior FDA offical" had to say, according to the Wall Street Journal:

"We urge people not to import foreign drugs. That said, if people are going to go ahead and order drugs outside the U.S., they''re better off getting them from Canada than from a country like Thailand or Mexico. At least Canada has drug regulations and testing systems that are comparable to ours in the U.S., which makes it a little safer."

link

It's the same companies and technology, and conforms to the same level of quality set by international standards. But since American big pahrma wasn't getting their cut, the government steps in. I don't think Canada would ever bother.

You mean the way Canada isn't "bothering" with the "Buy America" campaign?

The statistical evidence shows that the number of Canadians using the US system is small. About 0.25% of people who use the health care system. Yeah, it's a sure sign that we're falling apart.

No one said it was a sign that you're falling apart, but I guess it's better to respond to a phantom claim than actually address what you apparently can't.

[GostHacked]

The government never said Canadians meds are not of the same quality standards, it said that Canadian drugs aren't held to FDA standards, and that is a true statement; and speaking of the FDA, this is what " a senior FDA offical" had to say, according to the Wall Street Journal:

"We urge people not to import foreign drugs. That said, if people are going to go ahead and order drugs outside the U.S., they''re better off getting them from Canada than from a country like Thailand or Mexico. At least Canada has drug regulations and testing systems that are comparable to ours in the U.S., which makes it a little safer."

link

It was more of a protectionist move on the US side. Brand names sell, inexpensive generics (which are just as effective, because they are made the same way with the same ingredients in the same ratio) don't. Might have to do with a profit margin or something.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yea...it's like tire blems...Canada will buy our "Big Pharma" drug lots that don't meet FDA requirements! At one point Canada threatened to ignore patent protections and make generics anyway. Same ingredients...just like baking a cake....LOL!

[wyly]

The statistical evidence shows that the number of Canadians using the US system is small. About 0.25% of people who use the health care system. Yeah, it's a sure sign that we're falling apart.

it's actually less than that, of those .25 many are already in the US working, students or tourists... those that actually seeking care there is .11% and of that a percentage a number are sent by referral for rare disorders treatments not found here or with reciprocal cross border hospital agreements...

percentage wise more americans seek healthcare abroad than canadians...and there is even medical tourism for americans in Canada...as well there was(it may have ended, I don't know) a problem in the 90's with americans fraudulently obtaining canadian health cards to seek treatment here...

[Guest American Woman]

it's actually less than that, of those .25 many are already in the US working, students or tourists... those that actually seeking care there is .11% and of that a percentage a number are sent by referral for rare disorders treatments not found here or with reciprocal cross border hospital agreements...

percentage wise more americans seek healthcare abroad than canadians...and there is even medical tourism for americans in Canada...as well there was(it may have ended, I don't know) a problem in the 90's with americans fraudulently obtaining canadian health cards to seek treatment here...

Once. Again. Canadians who "seek" care in America are a different issue from Canadians who are sent to the U.S. by the Canadian health care system due to lack of facilities/services in Canada; and that is not "reciprocal." The U.S. health care system does not send Americans to Canada due to lack of facilities/services in the United States.

[wyly]

There is really no justification for this idea of socialized medicine. Like any other market, health care benefits from competition. If doctors were forced to compete against each other in terms of both cost and quality we would have health care that costs less but delivers better results.

do you just make shit up as you type?...american MD's average salary is $100,000 higher than the average canadian MDs....

The dreadful bureaucracies we have in place would not exist, adding untold dollar amounts to the cost of health care.

our dreadful bureaucracies operates at one third of the cost of the american free market system...

the cost of healthcare per capita in canada is about 50% of the US...

[guyser]

The U.S. health care system does not send Americans to Canada due to lack of facilities/services in the United States.

Generally not, but it does happen , including sending US Dr's to learn new procedures.

[Guest American Woman]

Generally not, but it does happen , including sending US Dr's to learn new procedures.

I'm not speaking of teams of doctors going to learn new procedures - I'm speaking of Canadians being sent to the U.S. for the immediate care that they need because it's not available in Canada - either for lack of facilities or services. This is what I'm speaking of:

Hospitals in border cities, including Detroit, are forging lucrative arrangements with Canadian health agencies to provide care not widely available across the border.

Agreements between Detroit hospitals and the Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care for heart, imaging tests, bariatric and other services provide access to some services not immediately available in the province, said ministry spokesman David Jensen.

The agreements show how a country with a national care system -- a proposal not part of the health care changes under discussion in Congress -- copes with demand for care with U.S. partnerships, rather than building new facilities.

Canadians visit U.S. to get health care - Deal lets many go to Michigan hospitals

Expectant mothers from British Columbia, Alberta and Ontario have been sent to four U.S. states, a development some attribute to an increase in the number of premature births, a nursing shortage and a stretched health-care system.

Canadians sent to U.S. for neonatal care

If Americans have been sent to Canada because we lacked the facilities and/or services, I'd appreciate a source confirming that.

[wyly]

Generally not, but it does happen , including sending US Dr's to learn new procedures.

LOL the stupidity of that statment(not yours guyser but what you quoted)what private medical provider (american)would refer a patient to a system(ours)that will not pay for the treatment, our systems is for Canadia taxpayers... we can go to the US because our our healthcare will pay for it if its a rare procedure that ís not done here...the inconvenient truth that americans are loath to admit is the medical traffic is mostly the other way, estimations for this are that 1,000,000 americans will leave their country this year for medical treatment and a number of them will come here...

[guyser]

I'm not speaking of teams of doctors going to learn new procedures -

Sorry, I may not have been clear.

There are , on ocassion, a US resident sent here for treatment.

I know Docs get sent all over anywhere to learn

If Americans have been sent to Canada because we lacked the facilities and/or services, I'd appreciate a source confirming that.

I wish I could provide that for you , however it was in the hospital while waiting for a family members Macular dengeration needle insert and visit and it was told to me by the American patient.

In this specialty, Dr De Villier is considered the gold standard.

(I have been careful to say rarely, as it does not happen much at all)

Edited September 20, 2011 by guyser

[guyser]

LOL the stupidity of that statment(not yours guyser but what you quoted)what private medical provider (american)would refer a patient to a system(ours)that will not pay for the treatment, our systems is for Canadia taxpayers... we can go to the US because our our healthcare will pay for it if its a rare procedure that ís not done here...the inconvenient truth that americans are loath to admit is the medical traffic is mostly the other way, estimations for this are that 1,000,000 americans will leave their country this year for medical treatment and a number of them will come here...

Sorry, no go with you on this.

It wasnt a stupid statement at all. In fact I believe it to be quite rare for any US healthcare provider to send someone up here.

Our system can be used by US providers, they pay cash or cheque, but again,quite rare. Drs in the US are wise enought to see the shortfall and fill it ratehr quick. Then they can tell any provider that hey , I do X so send 'em here

You are correct, it does appear that its approaching 1M will leave for medical tourism. But a lot of that is just money issues, including people from Canada.

Lost go to Mexico for tooth whitening et al....not surgery per se , but improvements and they too are listed under out of country healthcare.

[Guest American Woman]

I wish I could provide that for you , however it was in the hospital while waiting for a family members Macular dengeration needle insert and visit and it was told to me by the American patient.

In this specialty, Dr De Villier is considered the gold standard.

(I have been careful to say rarely, as it does not happen much at all)

To be clear - was the American patient you are referring to being treated in Canada simply because the doctor was recommended as the gold standard? In other words, could he have been treated in the U.S. but chose Canada instead because he preferred this doctor? Or was treatment not available in the U.S. due to lack of services/facilities?

I realize Canada, too, has exceptional doctors. I hope you don't think I was saying otherwise. I'm simply speaking of the lack of facilities/services that exists in some instances in Canada - and relying on the U.S. in such instances does save the Canadian health care system the cost of having to build more facilities/provide more services. The Canadian health care system does use the U.S. as a safety net in such instances, and the U.S. has no such safety net. It stands to reason that would be reflected to some extent in both Canada's and our health care costs.

Edited September 20, 2011 by American Woman

[Sir Bandelot]

This year, 26 mothers from B.C. have been sent to three hospitals in Washington State.

In Ontario, 10 women with high-risk pregnancies were transferred to U.S. hospitals from April to the end of June, according to Kris Bailey, executive director of CritiCall, an emergency-referral service for physicians in that province. That is one patient more than the entire number Ontario transferred to the United States in fiscal 2006-07. In Alberta, four pregnant women were transferred to Montana this year.

Canadians sent to U.S. for neonatal care

Any idea how many neonatal patients get treated in a year in BC, Ontario and Alberta?

London Health Sciences Centre in London, ON alone does 2600 births per year. And London is a small city in Ontario with a population of about 400,000 people.

The London Health Sciences Centre, only one of many located in small cities across Canada, recently opened a new Neonatal care facility, replacing the existing one that operated at another nearby hospital. The press release announcing its opening is posted here:

Transfer of perinatal and NICU services in London is complete

Just showing a sample of some numbers regarding patient loads, transfers, and the kind of facilities that are in place in Canada.