More Israel from Turkey

[William Ashley]

This was actually a seemingly huge step in the Gaza blockade issue.

It seems both the state status bid from Palestine, and now Turkey (a NATO member) stating that they will escort aid ships. If Israel attacks Turkish ships, it attacks NATO - and would effectively be at war with NATO.

I find this step by Turkey to be a proactive step in ending the blockade (the next time ships are sent)

I highly highly doubt Israel will risk war with NATO over the issue.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14844902

... Mr Erdogan said Turkish warships were "authorised to protect our ships that carry humanitarian aid to Gaza".

"From now on, we will not let these ships to be attacked by Israel, as what happened with the Freedom Flotilla," he said, referring to the Mavi Marmara incident.

The question is, when are the ships being sent?

This is a massive test by Turkey especially with Iran and Syria on the block.

This along with a new Egyptian Security pact... (with elections coming up in Egypt which will likely not be as friendly toward Israel as Mubarak was.

It is not only a test for Israel on the blockade issue but also a test on the Alliance and Turkey as a member itself.

The EU bid thing also is questionable.

This at a time when the US has said it is up to Europe to wage war, as the US is too war weary.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/Friend-and-foe-watch-Turkey39s.6833090.jp

Edited September 9, 2011 by William Ashley

[Argus]

This was actually a seemingly huge step in the Gaza blockade issue.

It seems both the state status bid from Palestine, and now Turkey (a NATO member) stating that they will escort aid ships. If Israel attacks Turkish ships, it attacks NATO - and would effectively be at war with NATO.

Turkey's Islamist government is blustering to please local extremists. If it tries escorting ships busting a blockade the UN itself has called perfectly legal it will no longer be a member of NATO - nor have a navy.

[Saipan]

It seems both the state status bid from Palestine

Palestine is an old name of Israel.

and now Turkey (a NATO member) stating that they will escort aid ships.

Their loss :D

I highly highly doubt Israel will risk war with NATO over the issue.

Turkey will be automatically abandoned by the USA.

[William Ashley]

Turkey's Islamist government is blustering to please local extremists. If it tries escorting ships busting a blockade the UN itself has called perfectly legal it will no longer be a member of NATO - nor have a navy.

I curriously await that premise.

I think that the ICJ situation still ongoing. The blockade wasn't called legal, the boarding of the ship for defensive reasons was deemed "allowable" by a political organization, not a legal one.

The issue here is the allowance for delivery of foreign aid, and protection of ships. The Turks escorting the flotilla or sailing in the Mediterranean sea is legal. If their ships come under attack they have a right to a response, as attacking ships under the protection of a foreign state is an act of war.

Now this does not mean Turkey intends to violate the law of the sea. Merely it may be there to insure that the law of the sea is followed.

Israel is occupying a lot of land, as per the Balfour declaration, a lot of Israel and the waters are not Israel as per the declarations and arrangements of the foundation of the state of Israel by the United Nations. Countries occupying territory have certain rules to follow else it is a breach of international law.

Israel's claims are very weak to a huge chunk of Israel.

The whole re-statehood thing for Palestine is an interesting development though and how it plays out for Palestinian land in the divided Palestine, and differentiation between Palestine and Jewish Lands as decided by the UN on the outset of the two state solution for Palestine. Israel has more or less annexed and occupied a lot of land contrary to international law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine

Notice how all that water next to yellow by the law of the sea is Arab sea not Jewish sea.

It is unflawful for a nation to annex another nation, and during an occupation the rules of war occupation must be applied.

Edited September 9, 2011 by William Ashley

[GostHacked]

So NATO is going to use Turkey into some action against Israel?

I thought crap would hit the fan when Syria gets invaded, but this will trigger a huge conflict. It will make the current Israeli/Palestinian thing look like a freakin joke.

Interesting times.

[bud]

even though it's beneficial towards the formation of a palestinian state, it's only political posturing. u.s. will never allow this to happen.

israel, due to it's stubbornness, disrespect for its allies, international law and the political changes in arab countries continues to become more and more isolated.

all it has left are u.s. and euro politicians that it funds through its lobby groups.

[Bob]

Erdogan is continuing to appeal to the Islamists and their obedient leftist ilk (exhibit A - this thread) by portraying himself as the new Nasser. Typical Arab/Muslim bravado and machismo. We've seen this movie before.

[William Ashley]

Israel said to day it would back the Armenians and Kurds (with the media stating military support)

Today in Egypt

Protestors attack the Israeli Embassy - and invade it. (successfully)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/10/world/middleeast/10egypt.html

Hmm looks like a natural vent for Egypt might be just to send everyone to war with Israel.. better to have an enemy abroad then being it yourself.

But what are the chances of that.. it is unfathomable to think that Egypt and Turkey would go to war with Israel, even if they just signed a mutual defence pact and vowed to use warships to defend a breach of what Israel considers its waterfront. Well not really, but it does seem well revolutionary, and surreal. Surely all these Al Qaeda and radical islamists would back their governments if it was to eradicate Israel? Or is the homefront more important.

It really is unreal though. Like Lebananon, the west bank and Gaza have been invaded a few times over the last decade (which israel actually didn't seem to win heavily against Lebanon (but they got some dirty tricks in)

I don't think Israel would be able to on its own or with Greeces help push back a pan regional assault in this day an age - Turkey is very powerful.

I would find it contentious for the EU to take sides - although it seems Greece is that card. However the global security situation with out turkey weakens heavily the NATO alliance - especially as it is trying to consolidate its advances as it seems to be "withdrawaling"

None the less further escalation would be suprising --- uhm well except for that Palestinian statehood vote and the flotilla issue on the radar. I'm not sure if the first is enough to provoke a war.. you know, we don't recognize you, we will invade you type thing.

Lets just see.

Any bets?

War on vote war on flotilla?

--

I think turkey will feel a little better with that missile shield - if Israel has nukes.

Edited September 10, 2011 by William Ashley

[Argus]

even though it's beneficial towards the formation of a palestinian state, it's only political posturing. u.s. will never allow this to happen.

israel, due to it's stubbornness, disrespect for its allies, international law and the political changes in arab countries continues to become more and more isolated.

all it has left are u.s. and euro politicians that it funds through its lobby groups.

Wheras Hezbollah and Hamas have people like you...

[bud]

Wheras Hezbollah and Hamas have people like you...

my perspective is not as simple as yours.

just because i disagree with the israeli government, it doesn't mean i agree with hamas and hezbollah.

[Argus]

my perspective is not as simple as yours.

just because i disagree with the israeli government, it doesn't mean i agree with hamas and hezbollah.

Hey, pal, _I_ disagree with the Israeli government. I think both sides there are understandably filled with people who hate each other beyond measure.

Unlike you, however, I mostly blame the Arabs for this situation. It was the ignorance and intransigence of Arab governments over decades which brought about this situation. It is their continuing ignorance, bigotry and stupidity, and the determination to use Israel as a distraction from their own barbarism and corruption which continues to see the entire middle east in a boil over what should, in essence, be a minor dispute in a small pocket of the planet.

Also, unlike you and your simplistic solution - independence for Palestine - I can look into the future and see what a miserable shithole such a country would be, and recognize that the only viable solution to the situation is for that territory to be divided up between Jordan and Egypt.

[bud]

Hey, pal, _I_ disagree with the Israeli government. I think both sides there are understandably filled with people who hate each other beyond measure.

Unlike you, however, I mostly blame the Arabs for this situation.

you blame what israel is doing to the palestinians on the arabs. so the arabs have forced israel to create settlements on palestinian land. the arabs have forced israel to continuously expand these settlements, despite everyone, including the u.s. reminding them that it's illegal and that it works against any resolution. you blame the arabs for the killing of 1000 gazan civilians over a 3 week period. a killing spree where israel was accused of war crimes by every human rights organization and a zionist judge who actually hunted for nazis in argentina. the arabs are also at fault for the water and other resources israel continues to steal. the arabs are at fault for the wall and jewish-only highways that have created south african apartheid style cantons that disconnect palestinian schools, hospitals and communities from each other.

you're a fake argus. you can't say you see fault on both sides and then blame what israel does on arabs.

Also, unlike you and your simplistic solution - independence for Palestine -

it's not simple, but it's a start. a palestinian state is a right for the palestinians. a right that they will see sooner or later.

I can look into the future and see what a miserable shithole such a country would be,

that's because you're a bigot who has a hard time accepting the miserable shithole that the israeli occupation has created.

Edited September 10, 2011 by bud

[dre]

Hey, pal, _I_ disagree with the Israeli government. I think both sides there are understandably filled with people who hate each other beyond measure.

Unlike you, however, I mostly blame the Arabs for this situation. It was the ignorance and intransigence of Arab governments over decades which brought about this situation. It is their continuing ignorance, bigotry and stupidity, and the determination to use Israel as a distraction from their own barbarism and corruption which continues to see the entire middle east in a boil over what should, in essence, be a minor dispute in a small pocket of the planet.

Also, unlike you and your simplistic solution - independence for Palestine - I can look into the future and see what a miserable shithole such a country would be, and recognize that the only viable solution to the situation is for that territory to be divided up between Jordan and Egypt.

It was the ignorance and intransigence of Arab governments over decades which brought about this situation.

Its nowhere near as simple as that. If you look at the period after the armistice its a pretty even ball game as far as both sides fueling the conflict, with most of the aggression the result of both sides trying take and use more of the regions resources at the expense of the other. The reason violence ramped up in the 60's culminating in the 67 war was because both sides were trying to divert water from the river jordan. Its pretty reasonable to say that Israel not only started this with the contruction of the NWC which reduced the ammount of water flowing into Hashemite territory, and then bombing attempts by Arabs to construct their own diversion projects.

[Argus]

you blame what israel is doing to the palestinians on the arabs. so the arabs have forced israel to create settlements on palestinian land. the arabs have forced israel to continuously expand these settlements, despite everyone, including the u.s. reminding them that it's illegal and that it works against any resolution. you blame the arabs for the killing of 1000 gazan civilians over a 3 week period.

It is the Arab governments which brought the situation about through their wars, through their boycotts and hostility and their sponsorship of terrorism, through their refusal to allow refugees, even the sons of refugees, even the fucking GRANDCHILDREN of refugees who have spent their whole lives in Jordan or Syria or Lebanon or Egypt or wherever, to ever forget they must return to Palestine to dislodge the filthy Jews, have never allowed them citizenship, and have kept them in 'refugee camps' for decades. That's something people like you never seem to think or care about in your bitter, and repeated denunciations of Israel.

But it never seems to matter to your ilk what Arab governments do, nor, indeed, what Palestinians do. Maybe because they're not the people you really hate - the Jews.

It's like an Arab government can line up babies and roll tanks over them and you'll tsk tsk and shake your head in disapproval -- for a moment. Then you'll see that an IDF trooper pushed an old Arab woman and you'll ignore the babies. Your eyes will bug out and you'll leap forward, screaming abuse, Mr heroic human rights defender. Suuuure.

[Argus]

Its nowhere near as simple as that. If you look at the period after the armistice its a pretty even ball game as far as both sides fueling the conflict, with most of the aggression the result of both sides trying take and use more of the regions resources at the expense of the other. The reason violence ramped up in the 60's culminating in the 67 war was because both sides were trying to divert water from the river jordan. Its pretty reasonable to say that Israel not only started this with the contruction of the NWC which reduced the ammount of water flowing into Hashemite territory, and then bombing attempts by Arabs to construct their own diversion projects.

I don't claim either side is innocent. But the unrelieved bitter hatred and intransigence of Arab governments over the last fifty years has made peace and reconciliation impossible. And even in governments which were persuaded, in no small measure by American money, to make peace with Israel, the unrelieved hostility towards Israel from their religious figures, including state sponsored ones, from their media, including state sponsored, from their schools and academia and artists is palpable. One of the Egyptians involved in the attack on the Israeli consulate and embassy said it succinctly. "We were brought up to hate Israel, and now we're free to express out hatred."

Brought up to hate. And that in the more 'peaceful' and 'moderate' of Arab states.

And who funds Hamas? Who funds Hezbollah? Who funds most of the anti-Israeli groups in Gaza and on the West Bank? Iran and Syria. Do you think either government has the least interest in peace in that area? Do you think they would allow their cats-paws in Palestinian territories to ever do anything which would lead to peace? Not a chance. They have been using their surrogates to stoke the flames, funneling in arms and money, for decades. That's not because they give a damn about Palestinians and their 'human rights' of course, but because they too are filled with hate. And besides, pointing at the Jews makes such a good distraction from their own barbarity.

[Rue]

my perspective is not as simple as yours.

just because i disagree with the israeli government, it doesn't mean i agree with hamas and hezbollah.

Of course you do. You have repeated your support over and over again flooding this board with your comments supporting both and terrorism against Israel.

Not only that you have repeatedly used this board to advance unsubstantiated allegations as to the motives of not just the Israeli government, but all Israelis, all Jews, and anyone who support's Israel's right to exist.

If your dialogue was directed at a person instead of Israel you would be criticized for being personally offensive. Because you direct it at a country and a general category of all Jews, Israelis and anyone who supports Israel, its permitted on this board as political discussion.

In my opinion you present zero facts, just the usual anti Israel rhetoric over and over again.

So for you to come on this board and now pretend you don't support Hezbollah, Hamas, violence and terrorism against Israel and the dismantling of Israel by any means necessary is a crock. At least have the integrity to admit what you are and what you stand for and that is someone who openly supports ending Israel by violence if necessary and inciting hatred against any of us who support Israel's right to exist.

That is what your rhetoric on this board shows and your sudden denial is absurd.

In fact you are a classic example of someone who doesn't just point out disagreements with Israeli policies but repeats blatant hatred against the right of Israelis to exist as a people. Spare the innocence. We all have read what you have written.

Since you decided to use this dialogue as you do all dialogue on this conflict to direct once again attentiont to yourself I say again-what you think, what you stand for, how you feel, makes no difference to how this world will function either today, tomorrow or the day after.

You are not the issue as much as you try draw attention to yourself in each and every post.

[Rue]

Erdogan is continuing to appeal to the Islamists and their obedient leftist ilk (exhibit A - this thread) by portraying himself as the new Nasser. Typical Arab/Muslim bravado and machismo. We've seen this movie before.

His attempt to use the Palestinian card to become leader of the Middle East has misfired badly. To start with he overplayed his hand with Syria and Israel. The dummy wanted to portray himself as the mediator between Israel and Syria but formed an alliance between Hezbollah and Iran before he tried to play mediator making his claims to be neutral to Israel absurd.

Erdogan formed an alliance with the Iranians and Hezbollah to crush the Kurds and then approached Syria with the same proposition. What Edogan did not understand is Assad is a sociopath who trusts no one and when he saw Turkey coming new there was a price to pay Turkey wasn't willing to pay it.

The Ottoman Empire's tyrannic rule over the Sunni Middle East is not forgotten.

Erdogan's sudden playing of the Palestinian card to rebuild an Ottoman Empire aint gonna fly with Saudi Arabia, the Gulf States and Jordan, all created as British loyalist monarchies to offset Turkey's influence before, during and after WW1.

For anyone who bothers to trace Turkey's latest sudden claim to being a champion of Palestinians can find it directly relates back to a threat to Israel that Turkey would play the Palestinian card if Israel in any way supported the Kurds. Israel like the U.S. backs the Kurds against Iran. It was Turkey who decided to come in on the side of Iran over the Kurds rather than find a peaceful way to deal with them.

Israel backs the Iran Kurd wing of the PLK not the rest of it because it is working with students and opposition in Iran to replace its government. It has supported Kurds not so secretly since 1980 but to airlift Jewish Kurds out or with humanitarian assistance or with arms to right invasions by Iraqis and Iranians. Turkey decided to invade Iraq's Kudish areas thinking this would prevent an independent Kurd state forming in North Iraq.

Morally Israel could not sit back after Hussein mass gased Kurds in Iraq with full preapproval from Turke for obvious reasons. That was the last straw for Israel with the Turks and what you see today relates right back to that fatal day when Kurds were mass exterminated with gas. It forced Israel's hand to defend the Kurds even if Turkey was their ally at that time.

Turkey fears a Kurd independent state. So in one breath it criticizes Israel for being against a Palestinian state, while in the next breath it commits genocide against Kurds trying to create a state of their own.

Interesting but don't hold your breath waiting for the usual shrills on this board to point out Turkey's absolute two faced hipocracy.

Erdogan fears losing control all the oil rich deposits in North Iraq so let's not kid ourselves what this is about.

If you think he worries about Palestinians and has genuine concerns about them think again. In one breath he accuses the PLK of being terrorist and being against terrorism and in the next breath openly champions Hezbollah, Hamas and terrorism, as long as it suits his political purposes.

Israel is an evil state he says for crushing Palestinian aspirations of statehood while he does the same with Kurds. Israel is an unethical state he claims while he backs Iran's facist regime that each day tortures and kills political opponents and his forces do the same against innocent Kurd civilians.

Now let's get to the crux of the matter. Huge natural has deposits were found off the coast of Israel. Ooopsy, Turkey is left out. There's Israel and Cyprus offering to share in a consortium with American investors but once again Turkey feels shut out. So it plays the Palestinian card thinking Israel will back down and give it a share of the gas to avoid its navy.

The announcement by Turkey that it would escort a flotilla with navy ships to Gaza is pure b.s. It was announced the very day after Greece announced a mutual military alliance with Israel saying if Turkey attacked Israel, Greece would defend Israel.

Anyone who missed the timing can check it for themselves. Its tit for tat. Did Turkey think by forming an alliance with Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran Israel would shrivel up and whimper?

All the fool in Turkey has done is cause both India and Greece to form a naval alliance with Israel. In the real world his posturing has forced other foes of Turkey to have to align with Israel. India can no more permit the Iranian navy to build up next door to it endangering its shipping lanes any more than Israel can.

If Turkey wants to pose as the country that will replace Egypt and do what no Arab country has done, beat up Israel, to gain some brownie points he has blown it. No one cares.

Syria is imploding. So is Egypt. The Sunni Muslim radicals in Egypt and Syria consider him the enemy for siding with Hezbollah and Iran who are openly assisting in the extermination of Sunni Muslims in Syria and ooopsy elsewhere.

Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait and the Gulf Arab states consider Iran and the Shiite fundamentalists who erdogan champions as their biggest enemy not Israel but the dummy thinks he will unify Shiites and Sunnis against Israel.

Did Erdogan really think he could win over the Sunni Muslim world forming an alliance with Shiites? What an idiot.

Does anyone hear think NATO will allow Turkey to remain a NATO member if it provokes an incident with Greece and Israel?

By the way Mr. Ashley, last time I looked NATO boards and inspects boats no differently than Israel and the last thing they can do for that very reason is criticize Israel for doing what they do as well.

On top of being a blithering hipocrate over the Kurds and Palestinians we should also point out Turkey, oh yes, that same Turkey alsosearches ships at high sea suspected of carrying drugs, terrorist weapons or aiding and abetting the Kurds or pirates from Somalia.

Erdogan is a joke. His posturing will back fire as the very Sunni Muslim world he thinks he is winning over playing the evil Zionist card will turn on him for siding with Iran.

The question is will the Turkish military sit back for much longer as well? This is the same militry that arrested and jailed the very terrorists he released and sent in the last flotillas to stage a confrontation with Israel.

Let's see if Erdogan has the loyalty of the Turkish Armed forces.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Rue

[bud]

Of course you do. You have repeated your support over and over again flooding this board with your comments supporting both and terrorism against Israel.

?

see? this is what happens when you miss your medication. it makes you imagine things. unless of course you can show any proof of me 'over and over again flooding this board' supporting terrorism against israel.

otherwise, i think you should stfu and take a break from internet communication.

[Guest Peeves]

Israel wil do whatever it takes to enforce a legal blockade.

Turkey would not be so foolish as to enter waters defended by legal Israeli military. Should they try, Israel will blow away their so called NATO membership, as

Turkey will be committing an act of war.

NATO members are not obliged to protect a fellow member that provokes an incident, only if there is unwarranted attack on a fellow member.

In fact, I would suggest Turkey would lose it's NATO membership in such case.

Many NATO members support Israel before Turkey, a country that should never have been admitted.

NATO is a paper tiger now anyway. NATO was formed to resist the USSR which is no longer a threat. NATO is no longer worth maintaining since few members contribute or participate.

[Guest Peeves]

?

see? this is what happens when you miss your medication. it makes you imagine things. unless of course you can show any proof of me 'over and over again flooding this board' supporting terrorism against israel.

otherwise, i think you should stfu and take a break from internet communication.

Of course you've been wronged.You are certainly entitled to your unbiased, agenda laden, slanted and one sided rhetoric.

BTW it won't go unanswered.