McGuinty's policy platform

[Argus]

The new system already does much to fix that, but we need to spend the money to help the people that are already here.

We could just send them back home...

[xul]

You can't do much in a country unless you can communicate with your co-workers or the public.

It depends on what kind of job which you work on. For doing most common scientific, technical and industrial jobs, knowledge, experence and skills are more important than communicating ability unless your job is a manager, supervisor or team leader, because as a professional, what you are supposed to deal with are machines and scientific instruments, which you only can communicate with by 100110101...universal language.

In the Canadian company I work as a technician, most my fellow technicians are Chinese immigrants or Chinese Canadian, though the boss of the company is a white Canadian. It is nothing about racial selection. It is just because the machines we are supposed to deal with are all made-in-China, so the boss is easier to find someone with experience on the field among Chinese immigrants or Chinese Canadians than others.

[xul]

McGuinty should apologize to the unemployed of Ontario

Why? According to some conservative supporters' theory, an unemployed is unemployed just because of his or her inability to acqurie a job.....so it is all his or her fault

[xul]

I would add the requirement to read technical manuals.

I bet a lot of "non-foreigner" conservatives are even unable to understand the "technical manual" of their laptop computers, though I'm sure they can "read" the manual...

Maybe it is better McGuinty offered funds to Canadian companies like Bestbuy and Futureshop to extend the warranties of TVs, camcorders, computers, XBOX360s...to ten years, so these companies would be able to hire more immigrant workers to reinstall operating systems of these products once some existing witless guys like Hudak messed them up.

[Smallc]

We could just send them back home...

Oh yes, that'll probably work out great.

[Argus]

Oh yes, that'll probably work out great.

A lot of people fail to realize that among the millions who came to Canada as immigrants, many, many failed and returned home.

That was before welfare, of course, and various other government support mechanisms, and before we started taking people from countries who are impoverished, so that even being dirt poor in Canada is better than living there.

But from the perspective of the Canadian government and taxpayer, far better to send home a failed immigrant who can't find jobs than to put them up on welfare, or pay for expensive training, language and education programs.

It's not like there's a shortage of immigrants. We could do better than someone who can't find work. We could hardly do worse.

[capricorn]

A lot of people fail to realize that among the millions who came to Canada as immigrants, many, many failed and returned home.

And many, many can't hack our winters. Ah, winter, a test of endurance to say the least.

[xul]

And many, many can't hack our winters. Ah, winter, a test of endurance to say the least.

just like some "existing" tramps----becuase some conservative dudes here even don't realize that the welfare system can only support a Canadian or a immigrant living in a trashcan in a major Canadian city if he or she doesn't work at all.

[Zachary Young]

Welfare is such a terrible idea. Paying people not to work? We should just scrap the whole thing immediately. It would actually be a huge favour to recipients of welfare, because they would go out and get jobs and better themselves.

[Wild Bill]

Welfare is such a terrible idea. Paying people not to work? We should just scrap the whole thing immediately. It would actually be a huge favour to recipients of welfare, because they would go out and get jobs and better themselves.

Some would. Some can't, either due to a lack of skills or some infirmity. Sometimes there are just no jobs to be had! Not everyone is simply lazy, although I would agree that the 'system' should be better at discriminating.

I spent my career in the high tech sector, selling computer chips and the parts for the boards to big manufacturers. That industry collapsed in Canada. It left for China and Ireland. Now one job opens up and 2000 people apply.

By that time I was in my 50's. I found out first hand that age discrimination is very real! NO ONE wants an older guy from a different industry! They want someone younger, thinking that they will get more years out of them.

Finally I started my own business and I'm getting by. Not everyone can do that.

So in theory your suggestion is a positive one, except in the real world what you're asking is for many people to simply lie down and die! There is very little casual work around anymore. I found out there's even competition to get a job as a greeter at WalMart!

In 1950 your suggestion would have been more practical but times have changed. Before you can cut welfare off cold turkey you would have to change society to regain the lost job opportunities. Otherwise you would be putting people in the position of either starving (and perhaps worse, watching their children starve!) or causing A HUGE AMOUNT OF SOCIAL TROUBLE!

I think you should consider some of the details before you make off-the-cuff suggestions, Zachary.

[Zachary Young]

We have economic troubles, sure, because of government intervention in the market, and if we eliminated this government intervention we would have full employment and jobs that paid more and were more fulfilling. But paying people not to work is just a terrible idea, and we shouldn't use the economic troubles - caused by government - to justify ever more government spending and intervention.

[Wild Bill]

We have economic troubles, sure, because of government intervention in the market, and if we eliminated this government intervention we would have full employment and jobs that paid more and were more fulfilling. But paying people not to work is just a terrible idea, and we shouldn't use the economic troubles - caused by government - to justify ever more government spending and intervention.

You may well be right. I'm simply saying that we should fix the lack of opportunity FIRST, rather than taking the easy cheap shot of turning off the welfare tap and throwing the truly desperate to the wolves along with the simply lazy!

Even during the Depression a hobo could always knock on some farmer's door and be fed for doing work, like chopping firewood or whatever. Now, someone unemployed doesn't have that option.

When I was 20 Zachary I thought very much like you. Now I'm much older and I see that there are many more variables, most beyond my control. I truly hope you always have more viable options.

[Zachary Young]

Don't worry Bill, I'm sure when I am old and senility sets in I will share many of the same opinions you do.

[capricorn]

From the Ontario Liberal platform:

And FIT is why companies are flocking to Ontario, right now, and

making us the North American leader in clean energy production and

manufacturing and – most important – creating thousands of jobs here.

We’re committed to FIT. And we’ll make sure the program continues –

because we know that the number of jobs will only go up, and the price

of renewable energy will only come down.

So – unlike the NDP and PCs, who would kill these jobs, tear up existing

contracts and drag Ontario backwards – we’re the only party committed

to delivering 50,000 clean energy jobs for Ontario families.

http://www.ontarioliberal.ca/OurPlan/pdf/platform_english.pdf (p.27)

The solar energy company touted this week by Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty as a flagship of the province’s clean energy economy has halted production because of slow demand.

Mr. McGuinty was flanked by Eclipsall Energy Corp.’s workforce when he visited its Scarborough solar panel plant Tuesday, but there was no mention that the production line is temporarily shut down. When my colleague Tamsin McMahon visited the plant she found the reception desk was empty, the cafeteria was closed and only a handful of employees milling around inside the sparsely furnished building.

Leo Mednik, Eclipsall’s chief financial officer, said the production line halt is because the company has already completed its current order book. “It’s no secret that the market is slow and there have been delays. That’s part of it — part of it is logistics. Our production team went through our purchased inventory a lot quicker than expected,” he said.

But he denied industry speculation that there have been layoffs among the 85 staff at Eclipsall. “Everyone’s on payroll, everyone’s getting paid.”

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/09/16/john-ivison-mcguintys-clean-energy-poster-child-starving-for-work/

So, if production has been halted and there were no layoffs, and everyone's getting paid while there is no production, just who is paying these employees? Could it be that the subsidies paid to the company by the McGuinty government are paying for employees to do nothing?

Les Lyster, the company’s CEO, told Ms. McMahon that the election hasn’t helped business because of the uncertainty over the future of the feed-in-tarrif program, given the Conservatives’ pledge to kill it. Mr. Mednik says he hopes production will resume some time next week.

Still, the news that one of the province’s leading solar panel companies has ceased production will come as an embarrassment to Mr. McGuinty, who has been positioning the move into renewable power as a game-changer for Ontario. “Our bold plan is to position Ontario to become North American’s biggest manufacturer of clean technologies,” he said when he visited Eclipsall Tuesday. He routinely compares the Liberal feed-in-tariff, which offers generous rates for solar energy, to the auto-pact that helped build Ontario’s auto industry.

The Liberal government’s efforts have created jobs – though the 20,000 number touted by Mr. McGuinty seems highly questionable, far less the 50,000 he says will be created by the end of next year. In addition, they are hardly high wage, high skilled jobs the Premier claims (Eclipsall pays 20% over minimum wage to its workers, who assemble glass and solar cells imported from Asia, thereby qualifying for the Liberal Green Energy Act’s 60% domestic content rule).

The question is: how sustainable are these jobs? Mr. Mednik admitted that if the domestic content rule was removed, Eclipsall and other Ontario manufacturers would not be able to survive. “Frankly, it would be very difficult for any start-up to compete” against cheaper Chinese producers, he said.

He said it is a question of when, rather than if, the 60% threshold is removed. Both the European Union and Japan have taken the FIT program to the World Trade Organization and want the local content requirements removed. They claim this Buy Ontario provision is a prohibited subsidy. The FIT program might also soon become subject to a NAFTA dispute case, after American renewable company Mesa Power Group said it would file a complaint.

McGuinty's pie in the sky green energy plan is quickly going off the rails.

[capricorn]

Premier Dad just can't catch a break.

Liberal Leader Dalton McGuinty is deflecting allegations his party fired up idle machines at a solar plant for a photo opportunity.

The questions stem from a visit McGuinty made to an apparently bustling Eclipsall Energy's panel plant in Toronto on Tuesday. But company executives have said the plant had temporarily stopped production because the company has gone through its current order book.

When asked by reporters if machines were started for show just for a photo opportunity, McGuinty replied Friday: "You'd have to speak to the folks there about that. All I know is that everybody was on the payroll and they went through their inventory faster than expected."

McGuinty, speaking at a media event at a wind power plant in Windsor, said the fact the company has gone through their inventory faster than they expected was "good news."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/story/2011/09/16/ontario-election-day10.html

OK, so the photo op was a company plot. To top it off, it's all Hudak's and Horwath's fault no one is ordering from Eclipsall.

But he also blamed the Progressive Conservatives and the New Democrats for "putting a bit of a chill" on demand. Both parties have been critical of the Liberals' green energy plans. The PCs have said they would scrap McGuinty's Green Energy Act.

"The opposition wants to stop this industry. They want to stop these jobs," McGuinty said.

[bloodyminded]

Don't worry Bill, I'm sure when I am old and senility sets in I will share many of the same opinions you do.

Oh, Bill remains sharp enough, no worries. He also shows some compasison for people; and such compassionate tendencies could someday work in your favour, Zachary, if that sharpens its importance in your mind.

And Bill's right; even if the notion of eliminating welfare altogether is sound idea, it shouldn't ever be done immediately (your suggestion).

Some people will suffer unbelievable depredations. Why should anyone want that for them?

[Zachary Young]

Absolutely welfare should be wiped out immediately. If I could push a button and have it gone tomorrow I would. A lot of people use it to subsidize their alcohol and drug addictions. It's an impediment to living a healthy life. We are doing a great disservice to the taxpayer who's money we steal and the welfare bum who's parasitic lifestyle we encourage by keeping this program. But let me be clear - it is far, far more important to end corporate welfare, especially to the merchants of death, and welfare to politicians and their friends then it is to end welfare for the poor. But we should end it all, and we should end it immediately.

[bloodyminded]

Absolutely welfare should be wiped out immediately. If I could push a button and have it gone tomorrow I would. A lot of people use it to subsidize their alcohol and drug addictions. It's an impediment to living a healthy life. We are doing a great disservice to the taxpayer who's money we steal and the welfare bum who's parasitic lifestyle we encourage by keeping this program. But let me be clear - it is far, far more important to end corporate welfare, especially to the merchants of death, and welfare to politicians and their friends then it is to end welfare for the poor. But we should end it all, and we should end it immediately.

Yes, I understand that you are speaking from principle here, and would wish an end to upwards welfare as well as downwards welfare.

But my question still stands: never mind people using welfare for bad purposes or what have you; if you could push a button and end it immediately, could you not see some sudden, devastating and awful things occurring to a lot of people?

[Wild Bill]

Absolutely welfare should be wiped out immediately. If I could push a button and have it gone tomorrow I would. A lot of people use it to subsidize their alcohol and drug addictions. It's an impediment to living a healthy life. We are doing a great disservice to the taxpayer who's money we steal and the welfare bum who's parasitic lifestyle we encourage by keeping this program. But let me be clear - it is far, far more important to end corporate welfare, especially to the merchants of death, and welfare to politicians and their friends then it is to end welfare for the poor. But we should end it all, and we should end it immediately.

Zachary, by the time you reach my age you won't have to worry about senility. They likely will have found a cure!

However, I would love to bet you that your opinions will have changed a lot but I doubt if I will be around by then to collect!

You've probably already heard all the old sayings like " If you're not a socialist at 20 you have no heart but if you are still a socialist at 40 you have no head!" A generalization, of course, but one with a grain of truth to it. Haven't you ever wondered why older folks are not nearly as leftwing as younger folks? This is not a new phenomenon, you know! It has been true for thousands of years.

You see, the mistake we all make is that when we are young we may be quite intelligent but we simply have not had enough time to accumulate the life experience to test all the info and data we have acquired! It's like a teacher who has never actually done a task but thinks he would have no problem because he has taught it from a book. There is no substitute for actual experience. Would you like to be a passenger flown by a pilot who has never piloted a real plane? Who has only flown at his computer with a Flight Simulator program? Sure, there are good programs but tell the truth, would you want to risk it?

We don't get any stupider or any smarter as we age, unfortunately. Some folks do get set in their ways but I'll let you in on a little secret. 9 times out of 10 they were already set in their ways when they were teenagers! They NEVER were very good at assimilating new information! The first thing they learn had better be right because once it gets into their head it can never be changed or taken out.

Having to pay a mortgage changes your outlook on finances drastically. Having to budget to save enough to give your kids Christmas presents does as well. Finding yourself having to choose between paying the gas company for your winter heating fuel or having enough meat in the family diet from the grocery store is another lesson in practicality.

It's usually in your late 20's when you start to notice who brings beer to the party and who just shows up and drinks it! It may be even later before you have heard enough broken promises from politicians to learn that they may be just snowing you. Add on another 10 years before you learn it's also true of your favourite party and not just the others.

Fortunately, the learning process is not always painful and sometimes can actually be humorous! Just don't try to tell yourself that you know it all now and will never change your mind. That's a sucker's bet and you'll only do yourself a disservice!

Edited September 16, 2011 by Wild Bill

[Zachary Young]

"But my question still stands: never mind people using welfare for bad purposes or what have you; if you could push a button and end it immediately, could you not see some sudden, devastating and awful things occurring to a lot of people?"

Getting a job is not awful and devastating. No, absolutely nothing terrible would happen. Look - I've known a lot of people on welfare in my life. My mother raised me and my sisters on it. I have lived with people on it. Now my mother was kind of the exception that proves the rule, but most of the people I have known who were on welfare did so because they liked to party and didn't want to work. If their welfare cheques got cut off they would have to go out and get jobs. I don't think people who "abuse" welfare (whatever that means) are bad. I think they are just rationally exploiting the system a little. I don't have any moral contempt for them. But they definitely don't need the cheque and if you cut it off it would probably do them a lot of good. Having a job is an essential part of a full life. Forcing them to work would actually greatly improve them. I mean, we should do some things to make it easier for them to find a job, like eliminating the minimum wage and not criminalizing harmless behaviour like drug use. We should cut taxes so that businesses flourish and we should cut taxes so that there is more savings and thus investment and thus more capital and thus higher productivity and thus (finally!) higher wages. But on the issue of welfare simply about welfare, we end it tomorrow and it will make things better for everyone.

But it's far MORE important that we cut military spending and spending on police and spending on politicians salaries and spending on making the friends of politicians rich than that we should cut spending on welfare.

[Wild Bill]

"But my question still stands: never mind people using welfare for bad purposes or what have you; if you could push a button and end it immediately, could you not see some sudden, devastating and awful things occurring to a lot of people?"

Getting a job is not awful and devastating. No, absolutely nothing terrible would happen.

You just ignored everything I said! I agreed that many folks on welfare are simply lazy but there are large numbers who simply CAN'T get a job! THERE AREN'T ALWAYS JOBS THERE FOR THEM TO FIND!

What do you expect them to do? Lie down and starve to death? Watch their kids starve? And do it quietly, so as not to bother anyone?

Man, are you naive! We're talking the real world here, not some political philosophy book! We'd see riots in the streets that would make the recent ones in London look like church picnics! We'd need tanks, nay we'd need air strikes in the streets to control them!

Have you got any PRACTICAL ideas at all?

[Zachary Young]

I myself have had trouble finding work in the past, owing to my criminal record, and my own personal laziness (which is legion). If it weren't for government intervention in the market place, if it weren't for the minimum wage law and high taxation it would be much easier to find a good job. But I think anyone, if they are truly motivated, can find a job, working @ McDonalds or delivering flyers or what have you.

[Wild Bill]

I myself have had trouble finding work in the past, owing to my criminal record, and my own personal laziness (which is legion). If it weren't for government intervention in the market place, if it weren't for the minimum wage law and high taxation it would be much easier to find a good job. But I think anyone, if they are truly motivated, can find a job, working @ McDonalds or delivering flyers or what have you.

Well, I for one have been there, done that and got the Tshirt.

So have MANY other people!

You're wrong! Dead wrong! Try to get a flyer job here in Hamilton, with all the steelworkers locked out! THEY'RE taking those jobs!

Just how many people in a city can work at McDonald's anyway? Use some basic math, for Pete's Sake!

[Zachary Young]

Well, I for one have been there, done that and got the Tshirt.

So have MANY other people!

You're wrong! Dead wrong! Try to get a flyer job here in Hamilton, with all the steelworkers locked out! THEY'RE taking those jobs!

Just how many people in a city can work at McDonald's anyway? Use some basic math, for Pete's Sake!

So if not McDonalds there is 7-11, Burger King, Harveys, Walmart, a bar, a restaurant, etc. etc. The real disgrace is homeless people, who might be able to attain employment at $2 / hr (where no one cares about their smell) doing something manual indeed but employers are forbidden from hiring them at their market price so they are forced into idleness and welfare instead.

[Wild Bill]

So if not McDonalds there is 7-11, Burger King, Harveys, Walmart, a bar, a restaurant, etc. etc. The real disgrace is homeless people, who might be able to attain employment at $2 / hr (where no one cares about their smell) doing something manual indeed but employers are forbidden from hiring them at their market price so they are forced into idleness and welfare instead.

You seem to have swallowed some libertarian philosophy but all from a textbook, as if you are incapable of applying it to the real world. I'm NOT saying the philosophy is wrong! Just that you sound like a teacher who has never actually DONE it himself!

We've taken centuries to screw up our society. You suggest implementing a quick fix over a weekend!

I think I'll just put you on my 'ignore' list for a while, until you grow up. I share many of your ideas but you are just too immature in how you want to apply them. At this stage in my life, I'm impatient with listening to "hot air". As I like to say, I'm a "Utilitarian". I want to hear things that might actually WORK! Time is too precious to be wasted with academics.