Anti-Israel Protesters Disrupt Classical Music for All at BBC;

[Bonam]

So if there were an academic boycott of Iran, stated as action against the policies of the government, that would be "discrimination based on national origin," and would constitute "bigotry" against the Iranian people?

Then we disagree.

I'd say so, yes. You can boycott, say, Iranian nuclear scientists or scientists engaged in other forms of research that could be related to weapons development, because they actually have some impact/bearing on the situation. But what crime has an Iranian academic of, say, art history, committed? Why should he be barred from participating in international academic discourse in his subject, because of the actions of his theocratic government over which he has no say? Collective punishment?

But that can be debated another time, the academic boycott thing was a side point, only tangentially related to the thread.

Anyway, since you didn't mention anything about the rest of my post (that disruption of this event based on the national origin of its performers constitutes bigotry) I can assume you agree?

Edited September 8, 2011 by Bonam

[GostHacked]

God, jacee is such a disgusting poster.

Not half as disgusting as the majority of what you have posted so far on MLW.

[bloodyminded]

Because Iran can be compared to Israel, right? Get real. Israel does not belong to the category of countries that Iran bongs to: oppressive and closed societies. If you had mentioned North Korea, you'd have a point. But Israel being categorized in that manner?

there was no comparison made between the two countries.

The point made was that a boycott was bigoted, by definition.

[bloodyminded]

I'd say so, yes. You can boycott, say, Iranian nuclear scientists or scientists engaged in other forms of research that could be related to weapons development, because they actually have some impact/bearing on the situation. But what crime has an Iranian academic of, say, art history, committed? Why should he be barred from participating in international academic discourse in his subject, because of the actions of his theocratic government over which he has no say? Collective punishment?

He or she shouldn't. I completely agree. I totally disagree with divestment, with academic boycots of Israel...and, like I said, of such methods by protesters in certain times and places.

But I disagree with you that it's bigotry, that's all.

But that can be debated another time, the academic boycott thing was a side point, only tangentially related to the thread.

That you summoned, Bonam.

Anyway, since you didn't mention anything about the rest of my post (that disruption of this event based on the national origin of its performers constitutes bigotry) I can assume you agree?

Certainly not. I think it was misconceived....both because it was an unreasonable disruption in and of itself, and even by the standards of the protesters, as I believe such methods probbaly counter-productive, at least more often than not.

[bud]

Actually, it shows the character of the people that commit such violence. As I've said before, to me its very simple. I don't give a damn about someone's politics if he deliberately targets innocents with his attacks! To me, that removes an individual's humanity. At that point, he's a rabid animal. You can't negotiate with rabid animals. You can only kill them!

I watched and heard an Imam from Toronto define ANY Israeli over 18 as a legitimate target! He went on to include children under 18 in some circumstances, which were a lot looser than just child soldiers. It was on Michael Coren's show. Coren was obviously shocked and having trouble believing the Imam had actually said those words!

This doesn't mean that all Muslims are rabid animals. That would be as ridiculous as branding all Irish for the actions of the IRA. However, for me my definition still stands as far as Hamas and other terrorist groups. My attention stops as soon as they deliberately target a civilian. I couldn't care less whatever cockamamie justification they have.

Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, who heads the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva in the Yitzhar settlement, wrote in his book "The King's Torah" that even babies and children can be killed.

"It is permissable to kill the Righteous among Nations even if they are not responsible for the threatening situation," he wrote, adding: "If we kill a Gentile who has sinned or has violated one of the seven commandments - because we care about the commandments - there is nothing wrong with the murder."

Several prominent rabbis, including Rabbi Yithak Ginzburg and Rabbi Yaakov Yosef, have recommended the book to their students and followers.

more:

Rabbi Manis Friedman, an esteemed Chabad-Lubavitch rabbi from St. Paul, became the focus of controversy last week stemming from his short article in the recent issue of Moment magazine.

In the magazine’s “Ask the Rabbis” column, Friedman, and rabbis from other Jewish streams, responded to the question, “How Should Jews Treat Their Arab Neighbors?”

Under the “Chabad” heading, Friedman wrote: “I don’t believe in Western morality, i.e., don’t kill civilians or children, don’t destroy holy sites, don’t fight during holiday seasons, don’t bomb cemeteries, don’t shoot until they shoot first because it is immoral.

 The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle).

”

it's no coincidence that over 350 children were killed in 3 weeks when israel attacked gaza.

[Bob]

there was no comparison made between the two countries.

The point made was that a boycott was bigoted, by definition.

The point was that THIS boycott was bigoted. And that point is correct.

[bloodyminded]

The point was that THIS boycott was bigoted. And that point is correct.

Well, that's not so perfectly clear.

[Argus]

Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro, who heads the Od Yosef Chai Yeshiva in the Yitzhar settlement, wrote in his book "The King's Torah" that even babies and children can be killed.

A religious nutbar almost nobody's ever heard of? How do you find these people anyway?

On the other hand we have this. Can you guess who it's from? Hint: NOT an unknown, unimportant nutbar.

A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives.

The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister. …

It is better for a girl to marry in such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.

[jacee]

God, jacee is such a disgusting poster. As you've mentioned, as if children are somehow more valuable than adults. And more importantly, and illustrative of jacee's massive, shall we say, simple-mindedness, is his assertion that there were no children at the WTC.

The sad thing is that jacee is actually VERY typical of early-twenties liberal arts students in Canada. You have no idea how many people like him/her I met in university. Shockingly ignorant and VERY ideological (anti-West, anti-wealth, false perceptions of "oppressed peoples", illusions of environmental crises, etc). He/she is a symptom of our diseased educational system.

SHE is definitely not early 20's, and you are no shining bundle of joy yourself and this is a disgusting personal attack and you are totally out of line.

[jacee]

The point was that THIS boycott was bigoted. And that point is correct.

Horse patootie.

I heard about a protest of an event once where all the audience were Presbyterian. Man, you think you got problems? IMAGINE the protesters picking on the Presbyterians! Now THAT'S bigotry!

[jacee]

Not half as disgusting as the majority of what you have posted so far on MLW.

Thank you GostHacked.

[kimmy]

And by "destruction" you mean disruption of the event?

Protest is itself an exercise of freedom of speech. We all have that freedom, not just those paid to speak at a microphone.

That would be true if the concert were being held on a public street, but it wasn't.

You don't have the right to walk into a university class and go to the podium and say whatever you feel like saying. You can say whatever you feel like saying, but you don't have the right to do so in that university lecture theatre. You don't have the right to go on stage at a U2 concert and start playing an accordion. You can play your accordion outside the arena, if you like, but that arena belongs to U2 for the duration of the performance and they're not in any way obligated to give you a venue to expose the audience to the wonders of polka music.

These protesters had the right to express whatever views on Israel they wished, but no right to do so this venue.

If I had taken time out of my day to attend a concert only to find it disrupted by protestors, I would have been furious. Likewise the event where Christie Blatchford's speech had to be cancelled due to protestors.

Therefore, I have decided that if I ever find myself going to an event that might be controversial, whether it be a speaker or a politician or a performance by a musical group... I am going to bring cup-cakes. And if some idiot attempts to disrupt the event that I've decided was important for me to see, I am going to express myself by giving the protestors a cup-cake fastball right in the face.

Throwing food is a time-honored means of expressing disapproval, whether it be throwing tomatoes at bad actors on stage in days of yore, or whether it be throwing eggs or pieing politicians right now.

So I am confident that when I blast protesters in the face with cup-cakes, the law will recognize it as a protected act of expression rather than as an assault.

-k

[Sir Bandelot]

From what I understand, the real/ organized protest was intended to be outside the theatre, not to disrupt the musical event.

An explanation of their reasons for picketing the orchestra was posted by the group on their web site here

Moreover, during the 1948 Nakba, the IPO made it a mission to entertain Israeli soldiers [6] who were busy ethnically cleansing Palestinians, committing massacres and systematically demolishing hundreds of Palestinian villages to prevent the refugees' return. The IPO also entertained Israeli troops in 1967 [7], right after Israel's war of aggression against the Palestinians and Arab states and its occupation of the West Bank.

Similarly, in October 2010 the Archbishop Desmond Tutu asked the Cape Town Opera not to travel to Israel. His argument was based on his firm belief in human rights and equality. He wrote,

"Just as we said during apartheid that it was inappropriate for international artists to perform in South Africa in a society founded on discriminatory laws and racial exclusivity, so it would be wrong for Cape Town Opera to perform in Israel.

"Cape Town Opera should postpone its proposed tour next month until both Israeli and Palestinian opera lovers of the region have equal opportunity and unfettered access to attend performances.

“Only the thickest-skinned South Africans would be comfortable performing before an audience that excluded residents living, for example, in an occupied West Bank village 30 minutes from Tel Aviv, who would not be allowed to travel to Tel Aviv, while including his Jewish neighbours from an illegal settlement on occupied Palestinian territory.”

[Wild Bill]

That would be true if the concert were being held on a public street, but it wasn't.

You don't have the right to walk into a university class and go to the podium and say whatever you feel like saying. You can say whatever you feel like saying, but you don't have the right to do so in that university lecture theatre. You don't have the right to go on stage at a U2 concert and start playing an accordion. You can play your accordion outside the arena, if you like, but that arena belongs to U2 for the duration of the performance and they're not in any way obligated to give you a venue to expose the audience to the wonders of polka music.

These protesters had the right to express whatever views on Israel they wished, but no right to do so this venue.

If I had taken time out of my day to attend a concert only to find it disrupted by protestors, I would have been furious. Likewise the event where Christie Blatchford's speech had to be cancelled due to protestors.

Therefore, I have decided that if I ever find myself going to an event that might be controversial, whether it be a speaker or a politician or a performance by a musical group... I am going to bring cup-cakes. And if some idiot attempts to disrupt the event that I've decided was important for me to see, I am going to express myself by giving the protestors a cup-cake fastball right in the face.

Throwing food is a time-honored means of expressing disapproval, whether it be throwing tomatoes at bad actors on stage in days of yore, or whether it be throwing eggs or pieing politicians right now.

So I am confident that when I blast protesters in the face with cup-cakes, the law will recognize it as a protected act of expression rather than as an assault.

-k

Kimmy, what a fantastic idea! This is a meme that we all MUST encourage to grow!

If it catches on, can you imagine the fun?

[Guest American Woman]

Since some people think protests such as this are a wonderful way to get attention, and are even the wave of the future, I say perhaps people should protest Hamas by disrupting events hosted by Palestinians. Perhaps a Muslim prayer service headed by a Palestinian Imam would be a lovely opportunity. Evidently it wouldn't be bigoted in any way and it certainly would be within one's freedom of speech to do so, to hear tell - and think of the publicity!

[jbg]

Since some people think protests such as this are a wonderful way to get attention, and are even the wave of the future, I say perhaps people should protest Hamas by disrupting events hosted by Palestinians. Perhaps a Muslim prayer service headed by a Palestinian Imam would be a lovely opportunity. Evidently it wouldn't be bigoted in any way and it certainly would be within one's freedom of speech to do so, to hear tell - and think of the publicity!

If you're not scared, go for it. They're far less likely to be gentle in their response.

[bud]

• Demonstrators, protesting against the Israeli government's treatment of Palestinians, disrupt the Israel Philharmonic's Prom. Reminds me of when demonstrators, protesting against the Soviet government's treatment of Jews, disrupted the Bolshoi Ballet in 1974. Shakespeare, Twelfth Night: "Thus the whirligig of time brings in his revenges."

Gerald Kaufman MP

Labour, Manchester Gorton

link

[bud]

• As someone who is Jewish, I was proud to take part in the protests at the Royal Albert Hall against the Israeli Philharmonic Orchestra. Those who proclaim that politics and culture don't mix, when they keep silent as the Freedom Theatre in Jenin is under constant attack by the Israeli military, its premises ransacked and two workers detained without trial, are a prime example of western hypocrisy. Culture, art and sport cannot be divorced from their social context. When I took part in demonstrations in 1970 against the Springbok rugby tour, this same argument was used. The BBC's attitude to broadcasting the all-white South African cricket team then was exactly the same as it is today towards Israel's cultural ambassadors. However, the Guardian and Daily Telegraph's cricket correspondents, John Arlott and Jim Swanton, took a principled stance, refusing to commentate for the BBC. The reason why Israel funds and subsidises artists, musicians and writers to travel abroad is stated in the contract that they sign. The artist agrees they will "promote the policy interests of the State of Israel via culture and art". Who would now say that it would have been wrong to mix politics and culture and disrupt the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra and the performances of their famous conductor, Wilhelm Furtwangler, when they toured in the 1930s?

Tony Greenstein

Jews for Boycotting Israeli Goods

link

[Guest American Woman]

Reminds me of when demonstrators, protesting against the Soviet government's treatment of Jews, disrupted the Bolshoi Ballet in 1974.

Gerald Kaufman MP

Labour, Manchester Gorton

Perhaps as he's remembering of an event 37 years ago, he could remind us of the arrests that were made at that performance - and point out arrests that were made at this event.

Good to see that some of you are recognizing and confirming the idea that it would be very acceptable for people to protest Hamas at events hosted by Palestinians, though. Perhaps someone will pick up on that, and I can only assume you will be applauding them.

As for myself, I think it was good and proper that arrests were made at the Bolshoi Ballet 37 years ago. Makes me wonder why the Israeli protesters were able to get away with disturbing such an event.

[Argus]

• As someone who is Jewish, I was proud to take part in the protests]

Guys like bud love to trot out their 'good jews' whenever they can find one.

[Machjo]

Earlier today, anti-Israel chants disrupted a performance of the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra intended for broadcast. When Mehta stepped up to conduct Bruch's violin concerto, he was drowned out by chants and shouts of a largely uncivilized audience. Music lovers got a riot rather than a stimulating cultural evening. Link to story in headline, excerpts below:

Anti-Israel protests disrupt BBC Proms concert

(link)

Protesters have disrupted the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra's BBC Proms concert at London's Royal Albert Hall.

Several demonstrators in the hall shouted as Zubin Mehta stood to conduct Bruch's violin concerto. The rest of the audience booed in response.

BBC Radio 3 said it had to interrupt its live broadcast twice "as a result of sustained audience disturbance".

**********************

The BBC's Tom Symonds said: "As Zubin Mehta stood up and began each piece a small group of protesters each time tried to stop the music.

"They sang, they shouted, they were met by boos by the audience and they had to be removed by the security staff."

**********************

Theartsdesk.com music reviewer Igor Toronyi-Lalic, who was at the show, said: "The whole hall was groaning and trying to slow clap them out.

"It had the atmosphere of a riot."

Did they take a wrong turn on their way to the Israli embassy or what? An Israeli does not equal the Israeli government. If you have an issue with the Israli government, then protest it, not innocent Israeli civilians and private citizens.

[Guest American Woman]

Did they take a wrong turn on their way to the Israli embassy or what? An Israeli does not equal the Israeli government. If you have an issue with the Israli government, then protest it, not innocent Israeli civilians and private citizens.

Agreed.

[Bob]

Did they take a wrong turn on their way to the Israli embassy or what? An Israeli does not equal the Israeli government. If you have an issue with the Israli government, then protest it, not innocent Israeli civilians and private citizens.

Their "issue" with the Israeli government is that it continues to exist and defend its identity as the Jewish state. That's all. Just a minor detail.

[jacee]

Their "issue" with the Israeli government is that it continues to exist and defend its identity as the Jewish state. That's all. Just a minor detail.

Cite please?

I don't recall that part of their performance. Was that in the song they sang perhaps?

[Wild Bill]

Did they take a wrong turn on their way to the Israli embassy or what? An Israeli does not equal the Israeli government. If you have an issue with the Israli government, then protest it, not innocent Israeli civilians and private citizens.

Sorry Argus, but the precedent has been set at Caledonia. If you have a beef with the federal, provincial and municipal governments it is apparently perfectly legal and acceptable to take it out on the nearest entire town of white folks!

What's more, if you complain that they blew up your electricity for a few days you must be a racist!

Gospel according to Dalton McGuinty and Julian Fantino. Also, of course, the usual native spokespeople on MLW.