Layton Lionisation Excessive

[Guest Derek L]

A lot o stuff has happened in the last 11 years in Canadian healthcare which has improved the situation. 2004 Health Transfers were made to be independent transfers from the Feds to the provinces and the numbers of dollars and percentage of those dollars went up for the first time in around 15 years. Two separate Government reports which looked what was wrong with our system came out around the same time and many of the recommendations (not all) were implemented. We stopped looking at the access problem as a Doctor problem and started looking at it as an access problem for many rural communities. Sending in nurses and other health care professionals which have good impacts on towns of small size. We have implemented technology to give access to those who never had it before. Our numbers of doctors as a percentage of population has also gone up, and wait times have, if you can believe it, in most provinces gone down.

Seriously people need to stop acting like it is the year 2000 which BTW was one of the worse years for our system. 2000 is when our system started to crumble under its own wait and when it started to change for the better.

So with all that, added to “people like me” stifling report cards on the Healthcare system, we still don’t have any proof that things have gotten drastically better?

Didn’t the late Mr Layton’s party, just a few months ago, campaign on improving Canadian healthcare? No more treatments in Tim Hortons (I was at the Royal Columbian that weekend) etc…….Why campaign on fixing something that’s already been fixed?

[punked]

So with all that, added to “people like me” stifling report cards on the Healthcare system, we still don’t have any proof that things have gotten drastically better?

Didn’t the late Mr Layton’s party, just a few months ago, campaign on improving Canadian healthcare? No more treatments in Tim Hortons (I was at the Royal Columbian that weekend) etc…….Why campaign on fixing something that’s already been fixed?

You want proof things have gotten better in Canada? You can look at wait times, how many people now have a doctor, Life expectancy, or any other metric. Almost all of them have improved quite a bit from 2000. However that does not mean we shouldn't as Canadians demand things get better. We should demand that. However jumping ship from a system that is improving quite a bit and into a ship (France, US, Spain) where the systems have been getting worse over the last 10 years seems silly. Seriously people around here are stuck in the year 2000 when they talk of our system.

[cybercoma]

Practicality? It is more like an established policy to take advantage of the American for-profit system's excess capacity while curtailing investment in domestic facilities and staffing. The stories of neo-natal care shortages in several provinces are well documented, with families being sent to Seattle or Buffalo because beds are in short supply. Several provinces have standing contracts with US providers. We have been over this many times before.

So what? Do you understand "single-payer" system? The delivery is and has always been primarily private.

[punked]

So what? Do you understand "single-payer" system? The delivery is and has always been primarily private.

That is it isn't it. The government provides insurance and if Private Canadian hospitals can't do it the insurance will pay for you to go where whatever you need can be done. I fail to see the problem in that.

[Guest American Woman]

Windsor has a population of 200,000 people. Is it really surprising that they wouldn't have the same medical care available there than the Detroit Metropolitan area which has a million people? If it's going to take 2 hours to get to London or 20 minutes to get to Henry Ford and someone is dying, why would they send them to London? You're just being ridiculous. It's a matter of practicality.

Who's being ridiculous? For one thing, going to Detroit involves crossing a border. For another thing, Detroit has to serve the million people - plus Windsor's population? We have cities with a population of 200,000 too - and the facilities to care for them in that city. That Canada can't service a city of 200,000 - that it doesn't have the facilities - speaks of your health care system - as the U.S. health system is deeply criticized. what kind of overall care would Canadians get if not for falling back on the U.S.? It must be really easy to keep costs down in Canada - while relying on someone else to provide the care.

[bush_cheney2004]

So what? Do you understand "single-payer" system? The delivery is and has always been primarily private.

So what? The excess capacity of the US private/public pay system has long been part of Canada's delivery solution when faced with shortfalls. The US is not only private pay, with public pay programs (Medicare, Medicaid, VA, state programs) that dwarf anything in Canada. America is a defacto component of the Canadian health care system at many levels.

Many Canadians routinely know that America and other nations can provide health care services when their province comes up short. Americans do not routinely think of Canada in this way.

[punked]

Who's being ridiculous? For one thing, going to Detroit involves crossing a border. For another thing, Detroit has to serve the million people - plus Windsor's population? We have cities with a population of 200,000 too - and the facilities to care for them in that city. That Canada can't service a city of 200,000 - that it doesn't have the facilities - speaks of your health care system - as the U.S. health system is deeply criticized. what kind of overall care would Canadians get if not for falling back on the U.S.? It must be really easy to keep costs down in Canada - while relying on someone else to provide the care.

No it speaks to our population. Fact is if your city of 200,000 can't do it in the US they will send you to the city with a Million people to. Again that is a problem when you have a small population base. If NS sent someone to Toronto for medical attention they could not get in NS, is that really different from them sending them to Maine? Well it is in one way, Maine is closer thus their family has better access to them and their home.

[punked]

So what? The excess capacity of the US private/public pay system has long been part of Canada's delivery solution when faced with shortfalls. The US is not only private pay, with public pay programs (Medicare, Medicaid, VA, state programs) that dwarf anything in Canada. America is a defacto component of the Canadian health care system at many levels.

Many Canadians routinely know that America and other nations can provide health care services when their province comes up short. Americans do not routinely think of Canada in this way.

You do know every year more Americans get Canadian Health care then the other way around don't you?

Might be way they spend around 1-5 Billion dollars every year buying drugs from our country. Fact is you guys got a bigger problem so you might want to get off that high horse because you guys get more from us then we get from you in terms of numbers, dollars, etc.

Edited August 28, 2011 by punked

[cybercoma]

Who's being ridiculous? For one thing, going to Detroit involves crossing a border. For another thing, Detroit has to serve the million people - plus Windsor's population? We have cities with a population of 200,000 too - and the facilities to care for them in that city. That Canada can't service a city of 200,000 - that it doesn't have the facilities - speaks of your health care system - as the U.S. health system is deeply criticized. what kind of overall care would Canadians get if not for falling back on the U.S.? It must be really easy to keep costs down in Canada - while relying on someone else to provide the care.

Keep costs down in Canada? The Canadian healthcare system costs just as much as the US system. That doesn't matter anyway.

You, Derek, and bush_cheney seem to be having difficulty with the single-payer concept. Don't act like all of a sudden you care that a Canadian is taking the place of an American in the hospital system, when the only thing that matters in your precious US system is the ability to pay. Now you're acting like it matters where that money comes from.

I agree with you on one thing though. Canadians shouldn't be getting care in American hospitals because that's Canadian dollars, taxpayers' dollars, leaving the country. However, unlike the abhorrent lack of compassion you display by implying that people should have to make a longer trip to a hospital to stay out of the US system, I disagree with you. Also, for someone that is critical of "socialist medicine", you seem to be implying that our government ought to be running and opening more hospitals in low population areas and operating them at a loss. Our system doesn't work that way because, like I've said several times in this thread already, healthcare is publicly financed and privately delivered.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... That Canada can't service a city of 200,000 - that it doesn't have the facilities - speaks of your health care system - as the U.S. health system is deeply criticized. what kind of overall care would Canadians get if not for falling back on the U.S.? It must be really easy to keep costs down in Canada - while relying on someone else to provide the care.

So true...and a longstanding puzzle. The very "system" criticized by "Jack" and his party faithful is relied upon to provide health care services lacking at home. And it extends to many levels, from the American CDC to pharmaceuticals to advanced imaging technology to medical devices, etc.

[cybercoma]

So what? The excess capacity of the US private/public pay system has long been part of Canada's delivery solution when faced with shortfalls. The US is not only private pay, with public pay programs (Medicare, Medicaid, VA, state programs) that dwarf anything in Canada. America is a defacto component of the Canadian health care system at many levels.

Many Canadians routinely know that America and other nations can provide health care services when their province comes up short. Americans do not routinely think of Canada in this way.

Again, so what? People go where the specialists are. Americans have come to Canada and gone to Europe and Asia when there were specialists there capable of handling their cases.

And don't for a second say that Americans don't rely on foreign systems. You've been milking Canada for its more affordable pharmaceuticals for years and let's not even get started about people going to Mexico for surgery, drugs and other things. Give me a break.

[punked]

So true...and a longstanding puzzle. The very "system" criticized by "Jack" and his party faithful is relied upon to provide health care services lacking at home. And it extends to many levels, from the American CDC to pharmaceuticals to advanced imaging technology to medical devices, etc.

No idea what you are talking about Americans come to Canada for pharmaceuticals there BC and in a much larger number then Canadians to the US. Truth hurts.

[Guest Derek L]

You want proof things have gotten better in Canada? You can look at wait times, how many people now have a doctor, Life expectancy, or any other metric. Almost all of them have improved quite a bit from 2000. However that does not mean we shouldn't as Canadians demand things get better. We should demand that. However jumping ship from a system that is improving quite a bit and into a ship (France, US, Spain) where the systems have been getting worse over the last 10 years seems silly. Seriously people around here are stuck in the year 2000 when they talk of our system.

It sounds a lot like the cheerleaders of our Healthcare system want to have their cake and eat it too……..Things are getting better, look we’re treating people in coffee shops……..

I suppose people like me are hiding the proof that the Spanish, French and Americans systems are getting worse too?

Have we passed the French level of healthcare? If not, we should look at their model (and the American) find whats working, and add it to ours in areas that need improvement……

Why are you scared of change?

[bush_cheney2004]

...You, Derek, and bush_cheney seem to be having difficulty with the single-payer concept.

We are? Like you are having difficulty with US single-payer programs?

[punked]

Again, so what? People go where the specialists are. Americans have come to Canada and gone to Europe and Asia when there were specialists there capable of handling their cases.

And don't for a second say that Americans don't rely on foreign systems. You've been milking Canada for its more affordable pharmaceuticals for years and let's not even get started about people going to Mexico for surgery, drugs and other things. Give me a break.

Shhhhhhh don't tell them. Those Americans might not be able to talk down to us once they actually know the truth about how many people in their country actual get Health care from us. It also will make them look very stupid.

Edited August 28, 2011 by punked

[Guest American Woman]

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Edited November 6, 2013 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

Again, so what? People go where the specialists are. Americans have come to Canada and gone to Europe and Asia when there were specialists there capable of handling their cases.

Far more go to America from Canada, including high profile political leaders. I live just two hours drive from Canada, but it would be an absurd thought to go there for medical care.

And don't for a second say that Americans don't rely on foreign systems. You've been milking Canada for its more affordable pharmaceuticals for years and let's not even get started about people going to Mexico for surgery, drugs and other things. Give me a break.

And where do most of those pharmaceuticals come from? Who is really subsidizing the cost of the R&D...hmmmmm?

[cybercoma]

So true...and a longstanding puzzle. The very "system" criticized by "Jack" and his party faithful is relied upon to provide health care services lacking at home. And it extends to many levels, from the American CDC to pharmaceuticals to advanced imaging technology to medical devices, etc.

This is so wrong it borders on absurdity.

[bush_cheney2004]

No idea what you are talking about Americans come to Canada for pharmaceuticals there BC and in a much larger number then Canadians to the US. Truth hurts.

Where do the majority of pharmaceuticals come from? If you were an American as claimed, you would know about Medicare Part D.

[bush_cheney2004]

This is so wrong it borders on absurdity.

Is it? Do you deny that Canada scrambled to get a federal handle on things during several potential pandemics and relied on the capabilities of American epidemiologists (CDC)? Members here routinely cite American sources and references before anything based in Canada, claiming "it was just easier to find".

[punked]

It sounds a lot like the cheerleaders of our Healthcare system want to have their cake and eat it too……..Things are getting better, look we’re treating people in coffee shops……..

I suppose people like me are hiding the proof that the Spanish, French and Americans systems are getting worse too?

Have we passed the French level of healthcare? If not, we should look at their model (and the American) find whats working, and add it to ours in areas that need improvement……

Why are you scared of change?

No I am scared of adding a model that will fall apart in 20 years and leave us worse off. In 2010 alone France "trimmed" around 5 Billion dollars from their health care, this year they promise to cut more. These cuts are one of the things blamed for lax regulation which lead to a diabetic medication not being taken off shelves and killing 2000 people in France.

Edited August 28, 2011 by punked

[bush_cheney2004]

That Canada relies on the services of the United States speaks for the state of your health care system. You save money by relying on the U.S. Rather than spend the money to build more facilities, people are sent to the U.S. for care. The U.S. has no such 'safety net,' and therefore must spend the money to provide care for all Americans - and some Canadians, too. As our health care is system is criticized.

Bingo! Game...set..and match.

[cybercoma]

The whole population of the upper peninsula of Michigan - one third the land mass of the state - is 300,000. Yet we don't send people to Detroit to get medical care.

BS. There are specialists at Henry Ford that care for patients from all over the United States. Now you're just lying because it suits your argument.

We can provide the care here. People in small towns on the southern border aren't sent to Mexico for their care, either. Just as people on the northern border aren't sent to Canada.

More BS.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-08-31-mexico-health-care_N.htm

Americans retiring in Mexico to take advantage of their system. Hell. You've got a problem with Canadians being sent for care at American hospitals and going back home. Your citizens are actually moving out of the country to get better care. And to Mexico of all places where the facilities are in much poorer condition, as the article mentions.

And that's just the first example that comes up.

You save money by relying on the U.S. Rather than spend the money to build more facilities, people are sent to the U.S. for care. The U.S. has no such 'safety net,' and therefore must spend the money to provide care for all Americans - and some Canadians, too. As our health care is system is criticized.

You are completely lost. The United States doesn't, as a rule, get into the habit of building hospitals to care for people. Just like in Canada, the state doesn't run the hospitals. They are private. How many times do I have to say this? Are you actually reading my posts and learning from what I'm saying?

For someone that is against "socialist medicine", you seem to grandstanding for the governments on both sides of the borders as though they're responsible for running the hospitals and they're not. Let's get that straight.

Again, people who live in small towns along the northern and southern U.S. borders don't get sent to Mexico or Canada for health care that can't be provided here. That Canada does speaks for the state of your health care system.

Sure they don't.

[punked]

No, it speaks of your health care system. If it can't service the population as is, there's a problem.

I've never been aware of a city of 200,000 not having enough facilities to serve anyone. Furthermore, we wouldn't send them out of the county - they would be provided service in the U.S. And spare me your 'population' scenario - we have plenty of people living outside of big cities - and no where near them. The whole population of the upper peninsula of Michigan - one third the land mass of the state - is 300,000. Yet we don't send people to Detroit to get medical care. We can provide the care here. People in small towns on the southern border aren't sent to Mexico for their care, either. Just as people on the northern border aren't sent to Canada.

That Canada relies on the services of the United States speaks for the state of your health care system. You save money by relying on the U.S. Rather than spend the money to build more facilities, people are sent to the U.S. for care. The U.S. has no such 'safety net,' and therefore must spend the money to provide care for all Americans - and some Canadians, too. As our health care is system is criticized.

Again, people who live in small towns along the northern and southern U.S. borders don't get sent to Mexico or Canada for health care that can't be provided here. That Canada does speaks for the state of your health care system.

Give me a brake you have 11 times the population you have in a smaller country.

The fact is you are wrong. The only place in the US that has the problem Canada does is Alaska and guess what? You send them to Canada for Medical care. Heck even the former Governor Palin jumped the boarder to get some of our sweet sweet healthcare. When it is life and death no one care where the closest medical provider is or what boarder you have to cross. Alaska and Americans have shown us that. Care to take back your statements?

Edited August 28, 2011 by punked

[Guest Derek L]

No I am scared of adding a model that will fall apart in 20 years and leave us worse off. In 2010 alone France "trimmed" around 5 Billion dollars from their health care, this year they promise to cut more. These cuts are one of the things blamed for lax regulation which lead to a diabetic medication not being taken off shelves and killing 2000 people in France.

I’ve never stated replacing our entire system with that of the French (Or Americans), but finding the areas within those systems that perform better than ours, and adding to our own current (flawed) system……..Whats wrong with stealing other countries practices that work and making them our own?