recognize palestine

[Bob]

palestinian nationalism would have never been if it wasn't for the rise of zionism and for the european's shame for the treatment of jews. their fuck up ended up punishing the arabs who lived in palestine. the population of jews in palestine was 8% before the mass jewish migration. you can't just pretend people didn't live there. argentina and other countries were also considered before the migration to palestine. it's not like the jews were coming home.

ben gurion in 1937:

"The right which the Arabs in Palestine have is one due to the inhabitants of any country . . . because they live here, and not because they are Arabs . . . The Arab inhabitants of Palestine should enjoy all the rights of citizens and all political rights, not only as individuals, but as a national community, just like the Jews." (Shabtai Teveth, p. 170)

Right, so "Palestinian" nationalism is entirely reactionary and virtually hollow. It begins and ends with "resistance" to the existence of Israel. All "Palestinian" nationalism is is anti-Zionism. They're Arabs. And they're overwhelmingly Muslim. And they're indistinguishable from their Arab/Muslim neighbours, aside from the fact that quite a few of them have a working knowledge of Hebrew. Like I said, we have enough Arab/Muslim countries, already - we certainly don't need another, and especially not at the expense of the only Jewish state. They can go build their country somewhere else, as they've already done plenty of sick shit to forfeit their "right" to live beside us independently.

[GostHacked]

Right, so "Palestinian" nationalism is entirely reactionary and virtually hollow. It begins and ends with "resistance" to the existence of Israel. All "Palestinian" nationalism is is anti-Zionism. They're Arabs. And they're overwhelmingly Muslim. And they're indistinguishable from their Arab/Muslim neighbours, aside from the fact that quite a few of them have a working knowledge of Hebrew. Like I said, we have enough Arab/Muslim countries, already - we certainly don't need another, and especially not at the expense of the only Jewish state. They can go build their country somewhere else, as they've already done plenty of sick shit to forfeit their "right" to live beside us independently.

We sure as hell don't need another Jewish state either.

[bloodyminded]

What Israeli wrongdoings? You act as if Israel and "Palestine" are of equal moral fibre and share equal responsibility/guilt for the current conflict. Remember, there were also "two sides" to WWII, as well.

Sure, Israel isn't flawless, but it's a lot closer to flawlessness than "Palestine". Just look at how we conduct ourselves, and look at how they conduct themselves. It'd help if you actually knew a thing or two about both societies, of course...

This is all quite beside the point. I was responding directly to a point about what people do and don't concede in debates.

It'd help if you actually knew a thing or two about basic English sentences, of course....

Edited September 8, 2011 by bloodyminded

[bud]

Right, so "Palestinian" nationalism is entirely reactionary and virtually hollow. It begins and ends with "resistance" to the existence of Israel.

israeli nationalism is entirely reactionary. it begins with the persecution of jews in europe.

palestinian nationalism started when their property and land were confiscated by occupiers in favour of european jews. who the fuck are you to tell these people to leave their land and go build somewhere else?

you have to accept that over 90% of the habitant of palestine were arabs before the mass jewish migration from europe. it was their home and it was taken from them by force.

And they're indistinguishable from their Arab/Muslim neighbours, aside from the fact that quite a few of them have a working knowledge of Hebrew. Like I said, we have enough Arab/Muslim countries, already - we certainly don't need another, and especially not at the expense of the only Jewish state.

they already had their own land where they've been living in for many centuries. why do they need to go build somewhere else to pay for what the europeans did to the jews in europe?

it's no surprise how you never touch the argentina and uganda comment. the fact that other places besides palestine were considered by the zionist leaders to build a jewish state kind of ruins the whole facade that palestine is the eternal home of the jews.

Edited September 8, 2011 by bud

[Rue]

Good try Rue but I'm afraid you're battling faith, not reason. You made your point with crystal clear reason. Most readers in this thread will totally miss your points!

Oh well!

Lol. Thanks you old goat.

I suppose the best thing is zero response.

Now you I respond to. Lol.

Listen Wild One I just want to settle the record straight about the alleged countries I considered before I chose Israel.

Just so you know, I never considered Argentina.

If I was gonna go anywhere in South America for sure it would have been Brazil. Hands down the best looking women in the world next to of course Israeli, Cuban, and Persian women.

I toyed with the idea of moving all of us to Miami but for the same reason I did not choose Argentina or Brazil I did not choose Miami and today here for the first time I will share with the world the truth.

Too many of my people just can not dance and the Latinos made us look bad in the clubs. We never did get that salsa thing nor the Tango which is why Argentina was never even a remote consideration (not to mention Juan Peron was an open admirer of Hitler but hey why let that bother us, it was really the dancing we couldn't keep up with).

Someone did mention Manitoba but Jews who had moved to Winnipeg reported back to me about people "curling" and so I immediately know it would not work out. My people don't like to push brooms in their spare time especially on slippery surfaces.

So Israel it was.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Rue

[Bob]

israeli nationalism is entirely reactionary. it begins with the persecution of jews in europe.

palestinian nationalism started when their property and land were confiscated by occupiers in favour of european jews. who the fuck are you to tell these people to leave their land and go build somewhere else?

you have to accept that over 90% of the habitant of palestine were arabs before the mass jewish migration from europe. it was their home and it was taken from them by force.

they already had their own land where they've been living in for many centuries. why do they need to go build somewhere else to pay for what the europeans did to the jews in europe?

it's no surprise how you never touch the argentina and uganda comment. the fact that other places besides palestine were considered by the zionist leaders to build a jewish state kind of ruins the whole facade that palestine is the eternal home of the jews.

Actually, "Palestinian" nationalism essentially began in the aftermath of the Six-Day War. Although lying filth like Edward Said (PbUH) would have us believe otherwise. Prior to that, it was a sort of Pan-Arabism (Islamism).

Jewish nationalism certainly predates Zionism, although the most effective and prominent form of Jewish nationalism certainly arose to new heights with Herzl as a solution to persecution.

This talk of "Palestinians" losing "their land" is absurd. There was never such a thing as a Palestinian people until a few decades ago (it's still a completely hollow identity used by people like yourself for political purposes). Like I said, "Palestinians" don't constitute a unique people or a unique collective identity - they are Arabs/Muslims, just like all the others. Beyond that, they certainly never had any sovereignty or statehood, and speak of "Palestine" as if it is some sort of lost country, destroyed by Zionism. The truth is, of course, entirely different - that there was never any such thing as a Palestinian people (there still isn't) and there was certainly never a state known as "Palestine" where they rules themselves.

These conmversations always boil down to the same historical revisionism. Whether it's the Mavi Marmara, allegations of discrimination against Arabs in Israel, the conduct of the IDF with respect to terrorists, or anything else... the discussion always ends up here. Why do you pretend to care about these events when the foundation of all of your positions is this intention to reject the legitimacy of the Jewish national identity and our rights to independence and self-determination in OUR homeland? Forget all the details about the other complex issues (about which you know nothing that Wikipedia can't tell you), you reject Jewish nationalism at face value and see Israel as a mistake that should be undone. Israel, in your eyes, is a state born in sin that must be redeemed.

So again, why waste time on the details when it's obvious that you reject Israel and Jewish national rights wholesale? I and others see right through you. You're not original. Indeed, you're actually quite typical and literally the prototypical dime-a-dozen anti-Israel leftist. Stop pretending to care about about "disadvantaged" Arabs in Israel when your real grievance is with Israel's existence. Yes, you've stated before that Israel "has a right" to exist (bravo?), but it's always in the context of Israel being a mistake that must now be dealt with rather than undone. If your entire premise when entering these discussions is of Israel's existence as an injustice to this imaginary people you refer to as the "Palestinians", then of course you're always going to take the predictably reflexive anti-Israel position on all issues, complete with your imaginary narratives and editorializing.

[bud]

This talk of "Palestinians" losing "their land" is absurd. There was never such a thing as a Palestinian people until a few decades ago

you're telling me that there were no people in palestine prior to a few decades ago? they just suddenly and magically appeared claiming that their lands were being taken from them.

which fantasy books are you getting your history from?

[jacee]

Like I said, we have enough Arab/Muslim countries, already - we certainly don't need another, and especially not at the expense of the only Jewish state. They can go build their country somewhere else, as they've already done plenty of sick shit to forfeit their "right" to live beside us independently.

"Go build their country somewhere else" isn't going to happen of course, but building a country for themselves ... do you see that as a solution?

Do you see any solutions at all, Bob?

Are there not Jewish people in Israel who are working with Palestinians to find peaceful solutions?

[Bob]

you're telling me that there were no people in palestine prior to a few decades ago? they just suddenly and magically appeared claiming that their lands were being taken from them.

which fantasy books are you getting your history from?

I didn't say that. What I'm saying is that the term "Palestinian" is quite meaningless. It's an attempt to distinguish these people from other Arabs/Muslims in the neighbourhood, when they're largely indistinguishable.

[Wild Bill]

Lol. Thanks you old goat.

I suppose the best thing is zero response.

Now you I respond to. Lol.

Listen Wild One I just want to settle the record straight about the alleged countries I considered before I chose Israel.

Just so you know, I never considered Argentina.

If I was gonna go anywhere in South America for sure it would have been Brazil. Hands down the best looking women in the world next to of course Israeli, Cuban, and Persian women.

I toyed with the idea of moving all of us to Miami but for the same reason I did not choose Argentina or Brazil I did not choose Miami and today here for the first time I will share with the world the truth.

Too many of my people just can not dance and the Latinos made us look bad in the clubs. We never did get that salsa thing nor the Tango which is why Argentina was never even a remote consideration (not to mention Juan Peron was an open admirer of Hitler but hey why let that bother us, it was really the dancing we couldn't keep up with).

Someone did mention Manitoba but Jews who had moved to Winnipeg reported back to me about people "curling" and so I immediately know it would not work out. My people don't like to push brooms in their spare time especially on slippery surfaces.

So Israel it was.

Don't ever complain about your heritage, Rue! My ancestors were in the habit of waging constant battles with each other, first stripping naked and painting their asses blue!

And this in a cool climate!

[bud]

I didn't say that. What I'm saying is that the term "Palestinian" is quite meaningless. It's an attempt to distinguish these people from other Arabs/Muslims in the neighbourhood, when they're largely indistinguishable.

then, in your definition, so are the words "israeli", "slovak", "salvadorian", "guatemalan", "algerian" and so on and so on.

again, before the zionist migration to palestine by jews from all over europe, and before herzl and the rest of the zionist movement agreed to choose palestine over argentina and kenya, the population of palestine was over 90% arab. the land of palestine had over 700,000 inhabitants living there. you just can't make the facts go away.

[Bob]

then, in your definition, so are the words "israeli", "slovak", "salvadorian", "guatemalan", "algerian" and so on and so on.

again, before the zionist migration to palestine by jews from all over europe, and before herzl and the rest of the zionist movement agreed to choose palestine over argentina and kenya, the population of palestine was over 90% arab. the land of palestine had over 700,000 inhabitants living there. you just can't make the facts go away.

Excuse me? The Israeli identity is real. I'm not going to comment on the other nationalisms because I really don't give a damn. "Palestinians" are Arabs/Muslims. Just like Lebanese, Jordanians, Syrians, Iraqis, etc. As opposed to the Jewish identity, which is actually distinct from all the others.

As far as the demographic breakdown of a particular point in history, who cares? Thank God today it's 80% Jewish, and hopefully that number will increase over time. The less Arabs in Israel, generally speaking, the better.

[bud]

Excuse me? The Israeli identity is real.

israelis didn't exist until the country was formed in 1948. why are you crying about the arabs who had lived in palestine for centuries and want to call themselves palestinian?

I'm not going to comment on the other nationalisms because I really don't give a damn.

you're not going to comment because it would ruin your stupid argument.

"Palestinians" are Arabs/Muslims.

so? israelis are russians, pollacks, hungarian, german, arabs, iraqis, ethiopean, etc. etc.

As far as the demographic breakdown of a particular point in history, who cares?

"who cares" seems to have become your response to all the facts.

people who care about facts care. you seem to be limited to the talking points and whenever challenged with facts surrounding the issue, you go into your "who cares" or "i don't give a damn".

i ask you again, who are you to tell palestinians they can't call themselves palestinian? also, who are you to tell them that the land, which they've been living in for centuries doesn't belong to them?

Thank God today it's 80% Jewish, and hopefully that number will increase over time. The less Arabs in Israel, generally speaking, the better.

we know you're a racist xenophobe. no need to confirm it in every post.

[Bob]

israelis didn't exist until the country was formed in 1948. why are you crying about the arabs who had lived in palestine for centuries and want to call themselves palestinian?

Well, the primary reason we have the term "Israeli" is that there are non-Jewish people who live here with citizenship. Also, Israel is the only place where the overwhelming proportion of Jews speak Hebrew. So that separates Israeli from most other Jews in the diaspora. Moreover, the Israeli identity is real and unique, the "Palestinian" identity is fake, hollow, and just another cookie-cutter category of Arabs/Muslims. Like I said, they have more than enough land and countries as it is.

so? israelis are russians, pollacks, hungarian, german, arabs, iraqis, ethiopean, etc. etc.

But there is unification via our religion, history, and common purpose. The Israeli identity is at all at once diverse and unified (largely).

"who cares" seems to have become your response to all the facts.

people who care about facts care. you seem to be limited to the talking points and whenever challenged with facts surrounding the issue, you go into your "who cares" or "i don't give a damn".

i ask you again, who are you to tell palestinians they can't call themselves palestinian? also, who are you to tell them that the land, which they've been living in for centuries doesn't belong to them?

We were there first. You're picking an arbitrary point in history as a starting point. Many centuries before there was any such thing as a Muslim, we were here. It belongs to us, and nobody else.

we know you're a racist xenophobe. no need to confirm it in every post.

I don't wish any ill towards Arabs/Muslims, but I'm not oblivious to the threat they pose to Israel's Jewish identity. Ideally, there were be no Arabs/Muslims in Israel.

Edited September 9, 2011 by Bob

[Saipan]

then, in your definition, so are the words "israeli", "slovak", "salvadorian", "guatemalan", "algerian" and so on and so on.

"palestinians" themself claimed not long ago to be Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians. Yasar Arafat himself was Egyptian. "Palestine" is no more a nation than "sudeten" or Ozakia are.

Tibet is an independent nation and a COUNTRY. Own history, religion and language. Presently occupied by Chinese soliers.

again, before the zionist migration to palestine by jews from all over europe

Where do you think the European Jews came from? Mars?

You don't even have a grade school knowledge of history. Do you know where are the oldest Jewish Holy cities located? Since many centuries before Islam was invented? 2011 is the year 5772 in Jewish calendar. (and 2554 in Thai Buddhist calendar)

Edited September 9, 2011 by Saipan

[jacee]

I didn't say that. What I'm saying is that the term "Palestinian" is quite meaningless. It's an attempt to distinguish these people from other Arabs/Muslims in the neighbourhood, when they're largely indistinguishable.

Like Canadians and 'Americans' ...

[Saipan]

Like Canadians and 'Americans' ...

Are talking Asian Americans, European Americans, African Americans, or American Americans?

[jacee]

Are talking Asian Americans, European Americans, African Americans, or American Americans?

Doesn't matter. Can you tell by looking at them whether they are Canadian or American?

According to Bob, if they can't be distinguished then they don't deserve their own country.

[Bob]

Doesn't matter. Can you tell by looking at them whether they are Canadian or American?

According to Bob, if they can't be distinguished then they don't deserve their own country.

Why do these people deserve their own country?

[jacee]

Why do these people deserve their own country?

Because we choose to.

[CANADIEN]

Why do these people deserve their own country?

Why shouldn't they have their own country?

The argument that they cannot be distinguished from other Arabs doesn't fly. A Palestinian is as different from an Algerian as a Briton is from Australian.

Of course, If they all are Arabs, a solution could be a one pan-arabic country, from Rabat to Baghdad, including Gaza and the West Bank... Not that I am advocating it.

Edited September 9, 2011 by CANADIEN

[bud]

Why do these people deserve their own country?

you are from the bottom of the barrel.

welcome back rodent.

[jacee]

I don't wish any ill towards Arabs/Muslims, but I'm not oblivious to the threat they pose to Israel's Jewish identity. Ideally, there were be no Arabs/Muslims in Israel.

I,m glad to hear that. You certainly had me fooled! What with justifying bombing of women and children, murdering children in their houses, etc., it certainly seemed to me that you thought genocide was an appropriate strategy for Israel to take against them.

Maybe you should go back and read your own posts.

Edited September 9, 2011 by jacee

[GostHacked]

These conmversations always boil down to the same historical revisionism.

Yeah, maybe you should cut back on that then.

[bud]

the Israeli identity is real and unique, the "Palestinian" identity is fake, hollow, and just another cookie-cutter category of Arabs/Muslims. Like I said, they have more than enough land and countries as it is.

you're simply trying to create something that is not. fact is that the arabs who have been living in palestine for centuries have a real connection to the land. whereas the european jews have very little if any connection to palestine.

But there is unification via our religion, history, and common purpose. The Israeli identity is at all at once diverse and unified (largely).

sure thing, bob. the jews' "homeland" could have been argentina or kenya. why was that?

the israeli nationalism is full of hot air. there is no real history behind the connection. only 8% of the people living in palestine were jewish. the europeans, as it has been mentioned, do not have a real connection to the land. no one really cares or buys the whole biblical bullshit. fact remains that the land was over 90% arab and it was 90% arab for many centuries.

We were there first.

who is we? are you a dark skinned descendant of canaanites? because if you're not, then you're talking out of your ass.

I don't wish any ill towards Arabs/Muslims, but I'm not oblivious to the threat they pose to Israel's Jewish identity. Ideally, there were be no Arabs/Muslims in Israel.

you wish no ill towards the palestinians, but you want them out of their homeland. i'm sure your definition of israel is different than what the world recognizes. does your israel include the west bank and gaza?