19 August 1991 - Gorbachov, Yeltsin and so on

[August1991]

I use the sobriquet "August1991" because it shows a date when something appears to change but people don't quite understand the change.

I joined this forum in 2004 when I returned to Canada, and wanted to practice my English. I thought that English Canadians were clueless. True, they are - but now I understand that such is Canada, including me.

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In August 1991, there was an attempted coup in the Soviet Union. The coup failed. As a result, the Soviet Union fell apart - but when Gorbachev returned from the Black Sea, he thought everything was normal. He was wrong, and hence the sense of my sobriquet: August1991. Everything seems normal... but it's not. (20 years later, Gorbachev is more irrelevant than John Turner or Gerald Ford.)

IMV, the events of August 1991, twenty years later, have not been accepted in the US nor in Russia. Both Americans and Russians want to face a Cold War. There is some truth that military people organize to fight the last war. In Afghanistan and Iraq, one thinks of Americans in Vietnam - or British/French in Verdun.

August 1991 is significant (barely) to Russians. And I understand that we Canadians do not appreciate enough our State, and how we change our governments.

August1991?

For about 250 years, we Canadians have peacefully changed governments. Catholic and Protestant, French and English, we have managed to get along. Imagine. We now have a protestant federal PM who speaks French and attends Catholic communion.

Imagine.

Edited August 21, 2011 by August1991

[August1991]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBWMA3DlbgU

What a clueless man. Edited August 21, 2011 by August1991

[August1991]

[Shakeyhands]

Happy Name Day?

[Sir Bandelot]

I don't know, but I've always had some respect for him. I mean, he had the foresight to see what was coming and was able to protect the people of the soviet union from catastrophe. The huge changes he brought to the soviet union were done largely without bloodshed. Although Yugoslavia and other problems occurred afterward, they were the result of secondary actions.

Gorbachev was awarded the nobel peace prize at a time when it was still worth something. Not worthless like it is now.

[Oleg Bach]

He must have been totally simple -when that cowboy "genius" Ragan quacked "Mr. Gorbachove, tear down that wall!" - Huge mistake..should have left the wall in place a little longer instead of putting the German severed dragon head back on the body pre-maturely - causeing this mess called the European Union - which in effect is Hitlers belated national socialist dream to come true....Ragan was dumb - and Gorbachov - wanted to be cool and modern and had forgotten that Germany cost Russia 20 million lives...People admire Ragan as if he was a hero who freed all of Europe from communist oppression - the commies would have fallen naturally - everyone was in a hurry to be a hero - and acted as I said - pre-maturely - the time out for Germany was not long enough - a few more years in the corner would have taught them a lesson.

[Saipan]

I don't know, but I've always had some respect for him. I mean, he had the foresight to see what was coming and was able to protect the people of the soviet union from catastrophe.

What catastrophe he "protected" them from? Pinochet made FAR more generous move when he voluntarily stepped down AFTER bringing Chile from the tail end to the foremost place in South American economy. In fact the #1 economy.

The huge changes he brought to the soviet union were done largely without bloodshed. Although Yugoslavia and other problems occurred afterward, they were the result of secondary actions.

The changes came from Hungary and later Czechoslovakia. Not Gorbachev. And btw, Yugoslavia had NOTHING to do with it. Milosovic was in power long after whole Eastern Europe free itself.

[Sir Bandelot]

What catastrophe he "protected" them from? Pinochet made FAR more generous move when he voluntarily stepped down AFTER bringing Chile from the tail end to the foremost place in South American economy. In fact the #1 economy.

Pinochet? He killed thousands, and tortured tens of thousands. If you want to call him your hero, go ahead.

The changes came from Hungary and later Czechoslovakia. Not Gorbachev. And btw, Yugoslavia had NOTHING to do with it. Milosovic was in power long after whole Eastern Europe free itself.

Ya, that's what I already said.

[Saipan]

Pinochet? He killed thousands, and tortured tens of thousands.

Tens of millions in Soviet Union, and even more in China.

But the lives of people didn't improve in Communist regime. Lives wasted for nothing.

[bud]

What catastrophe he "protected" them from? Pinochet made FAR more generous move when he voluntarily stepped down AFTER bringing Chile from the tail end to the foremost place in South American economy. In fact the #1 economy.

you have a habit of trying to justify and downplay fascist dictators' atrocities.

[Saipan]

you have a habit of trying to justify and downplay fascist dictators' atrocities.

Exactly the OPPOSITE.

I escaped from such regime. Did you?

[Sir Bandelot]

Tens of millions in Soviet Union, and even more in China.

But the lives of people didn't improve in Communist regime. Lives wasted for nothing.

That's exactly why Gorbachev is exceptional.

[bud]

why do we have to compare ourselves with the worst? why can't we compare ourselves with what can be the best?

[Saipan]

That's exactly why Gorbachev is exceptional.

That he didn't kill as many while accomplishing nothing? What a good Communist!

[Oleg Bach]

We have a young university student from Chile - seems that their quasi socialist government hands out honourary degrees to ever peasant who can breath. She presented herself as a "math professor" - but we found out later that she lied...One thing that she did say about student loans is that they had become a corrupted lending practice - For so-called noble socialists - they sure transformed into greedy capitalists since their "revolution" - This young girl I speak of is from the country - Her father is a vet who owns a small ranch - The government as threatend to seize her fathers property unless they pay up on the student loan....Great out come for socialism - a nation that is controlled by governmental loan sharks...

[Saipan]

Speaking of loan sharks. Canada goverments (all three levels) and 'specially municipal are charging 15.5% interest in times of 1% prime rate!!!!!

Edited August 22, 2011 by Saipan

[Oleg Bach]

Speaking of loan sharks. Canada goverments (all three levels) and 'specially municipal are charging 15.5% interest in times of 1% prime rate!!!!!

This might sound typical and conspiratorial - but the banks run the nation.

[Wild Bill]

I joined this forum in 2004 when I returned to Canada, and wanted to practice my English. I thought that English Canadians were clueless. True, they are - but now I understand that such is Canada, including me.

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August, I'm curious. Your English is so good that you could be mistaken for an anglophone with a good education. How did this happen? Did you spend much time in TROC? Perhaps you attended an anglophone university and spent a lot of time drinking beer at engineer's "boat races", if you know the colloquialism.

[Saipan]

This might sound typical and conspiratorial - but the banks run the nation.

HOW do they "run" the nation?

[Thorn]

For about 250 years, we Canadians have peacefully changed governments. Catholic and Protestant, French and English, we have managed to get along. Imagine. We now have a protestant federal PM who speaks French and attends Catholic communion.

Imagine.

There were massive changes underway in the USSR which I don't think we can compare to Harper becoming PM. Canada isn't going to undergo the huge societal and political changes that Russia did, at least, not any time soon. I understand Harper's hope of 'creeping conservatism' as it were, of incremental changes to society, and I'm not saying he won't be able to change us a little, but I just don't think it's going to be the kind of earthquake the Russians experienced. Nor anything like it. Russia was in tatters after the USSR fell apart, reduced to begging for money from its neighbours. The number one aspiration among young girls was to become a prostitute. Canada is on considerably more solid ground, economically, politically and culturally.

[Saipan]

August, I'm curious. Your English is so good that you could be mistaken for an anglophone with a good education.

That's what I thought.

[Uncle 3 dogs]

Tens of millions in Soviet Union, and even more in China.

But the lives of people didn't improve in Communist regime. Lives wasted for nothing.

So, how many have to be indicriminately killed to have something?

[August1991]

August, I'm curious. Your English is so good that you could be mistaken for an anglophone with a good education. How did this happen? Did you spend much time in TROC? Perhaps you attended an anglophone university and spent a lot of time drinking beer at engineer's "boat races", if you know the colloquialism.

WB as I like to say, I learned English in Quebec City and French in Montreal - but the best place to learn any language is in bed. IOW, it is best if your parents teach you well.

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Above, I failed to note the connection between August 1991 in Russia and Canada, specifically the October 1995 referendum. In August 1991, when Gorbachev returned to Moscow after the failed coup, he seemed to think that everything was normal - when it obviously wasn't.

Similarly, many Canadians seem to think that after the failed referendum in 1995, everything is normal too. Well, it's not.

August1991 is a reference to l'inconscience collective.

Edited August 24, 2011 by August1991