Tilter Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 They're lying about the reasons for the policy. It's more arguing about identity: mushy liberals vs law-and-order types. People prefer to argue that over facts, I find. For example, in Toronto the right wingers rallied around Rob Ford's leftist white elephant subway idea, and denounced Miller's more practical idea - I think because they like the cut of Ford's jib. I don't like the way the Conservative government cynically keeps the popcorn gallery happy with their stances, but the fact is they're governing like Liberals so far. It could be worse. Miller had a practical idea??????????????? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 The murder rate in TO surpassed last year's total in about May of this year You're missing the point - rate and total are different things. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 Miller had a practical idea??????????????? Yes, he had a few: balancing the budget by securing new revenue, dealing with the unions and forcing a strike when he had to, working with the province to plan for long-term transit needs in a low cost and practical way, successfully promoting bikes as a way to ease the burden on roads & transit, while still promoting the city and ensuring that it was livable. Those are off the top of my head. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bloodyminded Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Yeah---- ANYONE who reads the papers & watches TV news can immediately how the crime rate is going down. Just as anyone who reads the papers and watches TV news is aware of the indisputable fact that the Royal Newlywed Visit was far more important than most other events, and that Reality TV stars bear close scrutiny indeed. I think every police chief in Canada is participating in that farce Anti-intuitive conspiracy theories can in fact be accurate, but they demand plenty of strong evidence. Edited July 22, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Michael Hardner Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 Yes, he had a few: balancing the budget by securing new revenue, dealing with the unions and forcing a strike when he had to, working with the province to plan for long-term transit needs in a low cost and practical way, successfully promoting bikes as a way to ease the burden on roads & transit, while still promoting the city and ensuring that it was livable. Those are off the top of my head. And..... now I have drifted the thread. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
cybercoma Posted July 22, 2011 Author Report Posted July 22, 2011 What I am saying is a falling crime rate does not automatically mean we need fewer prisons. Who said we need fewer prisons? Quote
bloodyminded Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Who said we need fewer prisons? No one. I'm not even declaring absolutely that we maybe don't need more prisons. I don't know. What I do know is that advocates for more prisons change their song at every debate-fork in the road: "Crime is up. No? Well, it's up since the 1950's? What? Well, there's overcrowding. Hmm? Well, murderers are the crucial issue. Huh? Well, what about robbers? Oh...you're a "hug-a-thug" type, aren'tcha?" It's like supporters of the war in Iraq all over again. They hear "War," or "Prisons," and they're all over it like Chretien on pepper-spray. The premise is "Fuck yeah!"; and the evidence-for-need is after-the-fact banging of square pegs into round holes. Edited July 22, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
eyeball Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 "Crime is up. No? Well, it's up since the 1950's? What? Well, there's overcrowding. When did overcrowding suddenly become an issue? I thought social conservatives usually got all hot at the thought of teaching offenders a real lesson, especially young one's, by crowding them into a cell with a bunch of hardened criminals. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Scotty Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 Why are we about to dump more money into prisons? Because people want criminals to do hard time. And crime rates might be going down but crime itself is not. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 Shhhhhhh...there are some here who will argue that the rate in 1952 is far lower and thus we need to buidl prisons galore. I think the argument has always been that sentencing people to a year in prison for murder was unacceptable to those of us who believe in justice. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 Oh, I know. More prisons mean more awesomeness, no matter what irritating facts are exposed. Facts? What facts have been presented thus far? That the murder rate is down? I'm not seeing the logic in the belief that since the murder rate is down we should let rapists and car thieves and burglars go free. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 And more expensiveness. That awesomeness is pricey! Prison costs soar 86% in past five years: report Which begs the questions as to which insider will get the graft when all those prison building contracts get `tendered.' It costs money to build prisons. Most of us accept that. We want prisons to keep criminals away from us. It's a lot cheaper to put them away than to endure the massive costs of their criminal behavior - which is a cost people like you rarely ever want to discuss. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 I am not sure of what significance agreeing on policy is though when one side is lying gratuitously about the policy... Lying about what policy? Do you even know what you're talking about? Why don't you just write "I hate Tories" in every post? I think that would basically be as good as what you do now. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Remiel Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 If you go with the current prisoner population in Canada, and divide that into the cost of building new prisons ($9 billion or something?), you get over $650,000 per existing prisoner to build new prisons. $650,000+. Per prisoner. Quote
Remiel Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 Lying about what policy? Do you even know what you're talking about? Why don't you just write "I hate Tories" in every post? I think that would basically be as good as what you do now. If you could read you would already know what policy I was referring to and could have skipped right to the accusation. Quote
Scotty Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 No one. I'm not even declaring absolutely that we maybe don't need more prisons. I don't know. What I do know is that advocates for more prisons change their song at every debate-fork in the road: Do these "advocates for more prisons" exist outside of your own mind? Because, you know, I've never actually seen one. Could we get a quote from one to compare to your fantasies? Can we get a link to the Tories campaigning in favour of more prisons? I can't seem to remember that one. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 If you could read you would already know what policy I was referring to and could have skipped right to the accusation. In other words, you have no idea. You just used the words because it sounded properly indignant. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 If you go with the current prisoner population in Canada, and divide that into the cost of building new prisons ($9 billion or something?), you get over $650,000 per existing prisoner to build new prisons. $650,000+. Per prisoner. And one would assume such prisons will be around for about fifty years. So divide your number by fifty and you get $13,000. Not that either number has the slightest relevance, of course. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Remiel Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 In other words, you have no idea. You just used the words because it sounded properly indignant. That Michael Hardner had no problem understanding my meaning speaks volumes about your level of comprehension. Quote
bloodyminded Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Facts? What facts have been presented thus far? That the murder rate is down? I'm not seeing the logic in the belief that since the murder rate is down we should let rapists and car thieves and burglars go free. Yes, because that's what people have been saying. All these "hug-a-thug" lefties. Let's leave aside, for the moment, your implied conflation of "burglars and car thieves" with "rapists"--if you really believe these are somehow synonymous, then these discussions are automatically useless. As if "criminals" have anything--anything at all--to do with one another besides the relatively banal fact that they broke the law. An average burgler is no doubt just as far away from being a rapist as you are. But can you cite where anyone has said such a thing, about letting rapists go free since the murder rate is down? Edited July 22, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
guyser Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 Yeah---- ANYONE who reads the papers & watches TV news can immediately how the crime rate is going down. So much wrong with that, The murder rate in TO surpassed last year's total in about May of this year . Huh? Post a cite, you'll find the truth. Quote
bloodyminded Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 Do these "advocates for more prisons" exist outside of your own mind? Because, you know, I've never actually seen one. Could we get a quote from one to compare to your fantasies? I found two in about thirty seconds; I think it's fair to extrapolate from that somewhat, but even if we don't, your question (which was ridiculous on its face...some of us have memories, you know) is definitely and undebatably answered: TimG: That means we need more prisons to keep the larger number of murders. And this one...well, I think you know him: Scotty: I think the argument [that we need to build prisons galore] has always been that sentencing people to a year in prison for murder was unacceptable to those of us who believe in justice. (Note: it's true that your response is not tecnically advocacy, but explaining why there's advocacy. However, it is obviously a concession that such advocacy exists...so I think you might better have asked yourself the question you, for some unknown reason, instead directed with hostility at me.) Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Scotty Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 That Michael Hardner had no problem understanding my meaning speaks volumes about your level of comprehension. I didn't ask what you mean. I asked what policy you were referring to. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Yes, because that's what people have been saying. Maybe you could explain what it is people 'are saying' then. Because the clear implication is that with the police-reported crime rate down, especially the murder rate, there's no need of more prisons. I'm not understanding the connection there. No one here has ever called for more prisons. They've called for stronger application of the rule of law against criminals, particularly against repeat and violent criminals. They've also called for an end to the farce of giving people two and three for one credit for time served, and concurrent sentencing. All of that means criminals serving longer time, and that is one of the reasons why we need more prisons. Edited July 22, 2011 by Scotty Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted July 22, 2011 Report Posted July 22, 2011 (Note: it's true that your response is not tecnically advocacy, but explaining why there's advocacy. However, it is obviously a concession that such advocacy exists...so I think you might better have asked yourself the question you, for some unknown reason, instead directed with hostility at me.) Well then it's just as fair of me to conclude that those who are saying we don't need more prisons want criminals to serve less time and be out on the street faster and earlier, right? The only people advocating more prisons are the numbers people who evaluate government's intent to make criminals serve more time, and decide how many spaces will be needed. The rest of us are merely in favour of criminals serving just sentences for the crimes they've committed. If, as a consequence, that means more prisons, which it obviously does, okay. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
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