Unions vs Tories

[Bonam]

So what you are saying is Teachers earn LESS then the median income of Toronto and you want them to earn less? Yes I get what you are saying, you are in a race to the bottom and you think all workers should earn less money.

See this is where we differ I want Canadians ALL CANADIANS to at the end of the day have more money in their pocket. You want them to have less. I wish the Conservative party would just be as honest and clear about this issue as you are being.

Except that raising public servant's wages doesn't make "ALL CANADIANS" end up with more money in their pockets. The money that is paid to teachers comes from somewhere. Specifically, it comes from taxes. Someone is paying those taxes. And if those taxes are higher so the government can afford to pay more money to teachers, than those other Canadians have less money in their pockets at the end of the day, not more.

Anyway, teachers unions are stupid and the way teachers are paid is bogus. Seniority does not correlate whatsoever with teaching ability. Every single good teacher I've had has been young, and the vast majority of the old ones have been terrible. Half-senile 60+ year old ladies that can barely teach anything getting paid more than enthusiastic young teachers who excite the students is completely backwards. Pay needs to be based on merit, not seniority. So does keeping one's job. My sister's best teacher got laid off when they needed to cut a few teaching positions. Why? He was just a few years out of college. Meanwhile all the old burnt out teachers that everyone hates have total job security

I would have no problem with a good teacher that actually makes a difference in student's lives making a high salary, even well into the six figure range. But horrible teachers that bore students to death and destroy any spark of interest those students may once have had in some subject deserve no more than the wage of a babysitter.

[CPCFTW]

So what you are saying is Teachers earn LESS then the median income of Toronto and you want them to earn less? Yes I get what you are saying, you are in a race to the bottom and you think all workers should earn less money.

Are you stupid? Do you know what a household is? Household income is the sum of ALL people in the household. Did I ever even mention the median income of teachers? No. I gave two salary figures drawn from a salary grid that ranges from 45,700 to 94,700 depending on education and experience. So how do you know that the median income of a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL TEACHER is less than the combined income of the median HOUSEHOLD OF 3-4 PEOPLE? It probably is less, but that was never my point. In fact, you're the one who inexplicably brought up household income. However, a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL teacher makes on average slightly less than the median HOUSEHOLD OF 3-4 PEOPLE.

I can't believe I had to explain that to you 3 times and you're teaching our children...

Edited May 24, 2011 by CPCFTW

[punked]

Except that raising public servant's wages doesn't make "ALL CANADIANS" end up with more money in their pockets. The money that is paid to teachers comes from somewhere. Specifically, it comes from taxes. Someone is paying those taxes. And if those taxes are higher so the government can afford to pay more money to teachers, than those other Canadians have less money in their pockets at the end of the day, not more.

Yah so cut their wages right? The question needs to be where are taxes going? I'll tell you one thing I think it is hypocritical and stupid of someone to act like taxes to pay teachers are bad and stealing from working Canadians then for that person to turn around and applied tax cuts for the rich, Billions spent on wars, and for that person to vote for someone who has the largest and most expensive cabinet ever. Conservatives sticking it working people while smiling at government waste for 100s of years.

[punked]

Are you stupid? Do you know what a household is? Household income is the sum of ALL people in the household. Did I ever even mention the median income of teachers? No. I gave two salary figures drawn from a salary grid that ranges from 45,700 to 94,700 depending on education and experience. So how do you know that the median income of a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL TEACHER is less than the combined income of the median HOUSEHOLD OF 3-4 PEOPLE? It probably is less, but that was never my point. In fact, you're the one who inexplicably brought up household income. However, a SINGLE INDIVIDUAL teacher makes on average slightly less than the median HOUSEHOLD OF 3-4 PEOPLE.

I can't believe I had to explain that to you 3 times and you're teaching our children...

MEDIAN INCOME WHICH YOU CITED IS NOT HOUSEHOLD.

Median income would be the income that occurs most often on a salary scale, it is not the average income which would be mean income nor is it in the middle of the highest averaged with the lowest.

You clearly don't understand the figures you quote. You clearly don't understand the definition of median. You clearly don't understand a lot. It wont stop you though from pretending you do eh?

Yes the average household income is 100k, but the median is 76k. Also 50% of households have over 3 individuals. I don't expect you to interpret those statistics rationally, so I'll do it for you: The average is distorted by 20% of Toronto having household incomes over 100k (ie. the 19% of households with two teachers or litter pickers or bus drivers, and 1% of households with the lawyers, bankers, and executives).

Again I get it you want Toronto teachers to earn less then what MOST earn. Median income would be the income which is earned MOST OFTEN in Toronto.

PS you are my new favorite dummy on the board.

Edited May 24, 2011 by punked

[CPCFTW]

MEDIAN INCOME WHICH YOU CITED IS NOT HOUSEHOLD.

Median income would be the income that occurs most often on a salary scale, it is not the average income which would be mean income nor is it in the middle of the highest averaged with the lowest.

You clearly don't understand the figures you quote. You clearly don't understand the definition of median. You clearly don't understand a lot. It wont stop you though from pretending you do eh?

Again I get it you want Toronto teachers to earn less then what MOST earn. Median income would be the income which is earned MOST OFTEN in Toronto.

PS you are my new favorite dummy on the board.

I cited median household income. I'm done with you. Grow a brain.

http://www.trra.ca/en/reports/TORegionGenDemo.asp

Edited May 24, 2011 by CPCFTW

[Bonam]

Yah so cut their wages right? The question needs to be where are taxes going? I'll tell you one thing I think it is hypocritical and stupid of someone to act like taxes to pay teachers are bad and stealing from working Canadians then for that person to turn around and applied tax cuts for the rich, Billions spent on wars, and for that person to vote for someone who has the largest and most expensive cabinet ever. Conservatives sticking it working people while smiling at government waste for 100s of years.

Not necessarily. Teaching is an important service and deserves to be well compensated. But I strongly disagree with the unionized method of compensating teachers, as I mentioned above. Pay should be associated with performance, and raises should be awarded to the best teachers while mediocre ones do not really deserve pay increases.

[punked]

Not necessarily. Teaching is an important service and deserves to be well compensated. But I strongly disagree with the unionized method of compensating teachers, as I mentioned above. Pay should be associated with performance, and raises should be awarded to the best teachers while mediocre ones do not really deserve pay increases.

That is something we could argue. The question becomes how you measure it doesn't? I don't think most teachers or Unions are opposed to this however they do not see how you measure it.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Spin it however you want, teachers get paid more than the average Canadian salary for a job that most high school graduates could do, and they get 3 months of vacation. Year round schooling would be a great dea but the teacher's unions would never go for it without a 30% hike in teacher's salaries. Too bad because that would seriously help the quality of Canadian education.

I hope you find the irony in your statement. You are advocating that high school graduates should teach. Not industry professionals, not anyone with career experience, not anyone with higher education and the ability for higher critical thinking with a university degree and good marks. And then you complain that teachers aren't willing to work all year without a pay raise... but you are complaining as it is something that may (or may not) improve the system.

BTW, Canada ranks in the top 2 among OECD countries. Yeah, our system sucks... (lol)

And are you suggesting that teachers may also be able to claim EI for these periods of "unemployment"? If that's the case, I might as well retire from my career now and get into teaching.

What? With how you describe the teaching profession you haven't already switched? I'm shocked.

Temporary teachers can claim EI as any other temporary contract job can. Permanent can not, as legislated by the Government.

Oh, and regarding fire fighters - http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=High_School_Teacher/Salary/by_Years_Experience

They actually look very comparable to teachers, considering that you don't need to sink 5-6 years and 100k into education to become one.

[CPCFTW]

Oh, and regarding fire fighters - http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=High_School_Teacher/Salary/by_Years_Experience

They actually look very comparable to teachers, considering that you don't need to sink 5-6 years and 100k into education to become one.

You must have been doing body shots off of college girls every friday night if you paid 100k for your education experience. You could have gotten a law degree for that.

Edited May 24, 2011 by CPCFTW

[punked]

I cited median household income. I'm done with you. Grow a brain.

http://www.trra.ca/en/reports/TORegionGenDemo.asp

You also cited that over 50% of households have 3 or more people working in them. You chart shows you are a liar. Your own Chart shows 51% of households only have 2 people in them period end of story let alone who is working. See what you did what you took numbers you found then made stuff up about the stats they show. Again only 49% of Toronto Households have more then 3 people in them and your stats show nothing about working but I am willing to guess there are children in Toronto, living in a house who isn't working.

What a liar you are.

Edited May 24, 2011 by punked

[Bonam]

That is something we could argue. The question becomes how you measure it doesn't? I don't think most teachers or Unions are opposed to this however they do not see how you measure it.

Well, there are methods, none of them ideal of course. One indicator of teacher performance is the student's scores on standardized tests (but we know teachers unions hate standardized tests with a passion). Another indicator is teacher evaluations filled out by the students themselves. A third method is sending professional observers into the classrooms to evaluate the teachers. A combination of these methods would yield an acceptable, though still imperfect, metric. If some thought was given to it, I'm sure people could come up with even better ideas.

The problem is that teachers unions are fundamentally opposed to payment based on performance/merit.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Not necessarily. Teaching is an important service and deserves to be well compensated. But I strongly disagree with the unionized method of compensating teachers, as I mentioned above. Pay should be associated with performance, and raises should be awarded to the best teachers while mediocre ones do not really deserve pay increases.

Ok.

How do you define best teacher vs. mediocre teacher?

[TimG]

MEDIAN INCOME WHICH YOU CITED IS NOT HOUSEHOLD.

Median Individual Income:

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil105a-eng.htm

Canada $28,920

Ontario $29,700

Median Family Income:

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil108a-eng.htm

Canada $68,860

Ontario $70,910

Individual teachers earn MORE than the individual median.

They also get a pension and vaction package that few in the private sector could dream of.

Teachers are NOT underpaid.

Edited May 24, 2011 by TimG

[CPCFTW]

You also cited that over 50% of households have 3 or more people working in them. You chart shows you are a liar. Your own Chart shows 51% of households only have 2 people in them period end of story let alone who is working. See what you did what you took numbers you found then made stuff up about the stats they show. Again only 49% of Toronto Households have more then 3 people in them and your stats show nothing about working but I am willing to guess there are children in Toronto, living in a house who isn't working.

What a liar you are.

17.6% 3 persons, 26.5% 4-5 persons, 4.6% 6 or more persons. Sum = 48.7%. What a rounding liar I am! You're a joke.

Median Individual Income:

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil105a-eng.htm

Canada $28,920

Ontario $29,700

Median Family Income:

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil108a-eng.htm

Canada $68,860

Ontario @$70,910

Thank you.

Edited May 24, 2011 by CPCFTW

[MiddleClassCentrist]

You must have been doing body shots off of college girls every friday night if you paid 100k for your education experience. You could have gotten a law degree for that.

Opportunity cost, troll. Can't work a full time job while in full time university.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Median Individual Income:

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil105a-eng.htm

Canada $28,920

Ontario $29,700

Median Family Income:

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil108a-eng.htm

Canada $68,860

Ontario $70,910

Ok. Now compare them to professionals of equal educational requirements... Not McDonald's lifer who barely passed grade 9 English.

Edited May 24, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[CPCFTW]

Opportunity cost, troll. Can't work a full time job while in full time university.

True. I'm just grateful that the 500k I invested in my education paid off too. Opportunity cost of not being able to work full time during kindergarten, elementary, high school, undergrad, and masters, troll.

I'm still trying to bill my mom for the opportunity cost of locking me up in her womb for 9 months.

Edited May 24, 2011 by CPCFTW

[punked]

17.6% 3 persons, 26.5% 4-5 persons, 4.6% 6 or more persons. Sum = 48.7%. What a rounding liar I am! You're a joke.

Yes you are a lair.

Now if we do want to look at your numbers we can, right now you are advocating that teachers should earn >50,000. You actually want them to fall into an income bracket that is well below average. This is what you believe. Your own charts show 35% of people in Toronto earn less then 50,000. That was my point in the first place that teachers aren't earning some crazy number for their salary in fact that they are earning a very average amount. Your own tables show that is average or less then average for the city of Toronto.

BTW your household chart is the SIZE OF THE HOUSEHOLD, NOT income earners like you claim you lair. Yep 48% of Toronto households have more then 3 people them and I am sure if you had your way the 6 year old girl living with her two working parents would also being working (probably sewing cloths right? or shoveling coal?) but they don't work. It is against the law. You claim was STUIPD and a lie.

Edited May 24, 2011 by punked

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Well, there are methods, none of them ideal of course. One indicator of teacher performance is the student's scores on standardized tests (but we know teachers unions hate standardized tests with a passion). Another indicator is teacher evaluations filled out by the students themselves. A third method is sending professional observers into the classrooms to evaluate the teachers. A combination of these methods would yield an acceptable, though still imperfect, metric. If some thought was given to it, I'm sure people could come up with even better ideas.

The problem is that teachers unions are fundamentally opposed to payment based on performance/merit.

Students give great marks to teachers who let them chat and do no work.

Standardized tests are more likely to reflect the neighbourhood and parental involvement than teacher progress as a trend with the teacher being able to influence slightly up or down.

Professional observers will cost a crapload of money. More money than would be saved by eliminating the few bad apples you are looking for.

[RNG]

Students give great marks to teachers who let them chat and do no work.

Standardized tests are more likely to reflect the neighbourhood and parental involvement than teacher progress as a trend with the teacher being able to influence slightly up or down.

Professional observers will cost a crapload of money. More money than would be saved by eliminating the few bad apples you are looking for.

The few bad apples?

[punked]

Median Individual Income:

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil105a-eng.htm

Canada $28,920

Ontario $29,700

Median Family Income:

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil108a-eng.htm

Canada $68,860

Ontario $70,910

Individual teachers earn MORE than the individual median.

They also get a pension and vaction package that few in the private sector could dream of.

Teachers are NOT underpaid.

We were talking Toronto. However I think if you went across Canada you would find that their are places were teachers earn more and places where they earn less.

[punked]

True. I'm just grateful that the 500k I invested in my education paid off too. Opportunity cost of not being able to work full time during kindergarten, elementary, high school, undergrad, and masters, troll.

I'm still trying to bill my mom for the opportunity cost of locking me up in her womb for 9 months.

You paid 500,000 dollars and you can't read a chart right? Wow. Maybe you should sue those teachers you gave that money to.

[TimG]

$53,000 x 1.03^3 = $57,900

Not nearly as drastic as you claim...

You math is wrong but more important: private sector wages have been stagnent or descreasing for most jobs in that pay range. That means ANY increase given to public servants is too much.

The rule should be: if wages and benefits are not rising for Canadians working in the private sector then public sevants should automatically face the same constraints. The economy simply cannot afford to pay public servants more if average private sector incomes are not rising.

Edited May 24, 2011 by TimG

[RNG]

And has punked ever sourced his claim that Ontario teachers make less than the median wage in Ontario?

[MiddleClassCentrist]

The few bad apples?

Even if you got rid of them and you think half of teachers are bad apples, you'd still need to pay their replacement...