Why Alberta hates the Liberals/Trudeau

[RNG]

Are you referring to the wheat board that monopolizes the sale of western grains, but the Ontario and Quebec farmers aren't hampered by the eastern bastards subjugating the western farmer?.

Bump.

[WIP]

I dunno how much heads out to sea now, but in the last couple of years companies like Sinopec have been spending billions in the oil sand, and gobbling lots of production. Some American multinationals are actually divesting. And Alberta is trying to get a pipeline built so that they can sell oil to development pacific rim nations where consumption is growing the fastest. My guess is that within a decade China will be a majority steakholder.

With all of Alberta's big dreams of selling tar sands byproducts for big cash rewards, I'd like to know when they are going to address this problem I heard about two weeks ago, but never got around to posting until now:

Canada NewsWire

EDMONTON, May 4

EDMONTON, May 4 /CNW/ - Little Buffalo community members, including school children, continue to experience nausea, burning eyes and headaches after one of the largest pipeline spills in Alberta history last Friday by Plains All American leaked nearly 30,000 barrels of oil into Lubicon traditional territory in the Peace Region of Northern Alberta.

Instead of attending an in-person community meeting, the Alberta Energy Resources Conservation Board (ERCB) faxed a one-page fact sheet to Little Buffalo School. The fact sheet indicates that tens of thousands of barrels of crude oil, or 4,500 cubic metres, has spread into nearby stands of "stagnant water." The spill, April 29 at 7:30 a.m., occurred only 300 metres from local waterways. The ERCB said the spill has been contained, but community members report that the oil is still leaking into the surrounding forest and bog. The ERCB also said to the community that there is "no threat to public safety as a result of the leak." Yet people are still getting sick, the local school has been shut down and children ordered to stay at home. An investigation into the incident is underway.

Read more: http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/298028#ixzz1MOqFEIYx

Some people are going to get rich off this crap, but as usual, many people living in the areas where oil, tar sands, coal, and natural gas fracking are actually done, get stuck with the externalized negative costs of these ventures, and have their land ruined, their health ruined, and will likely be stuck for years waiting for little or no compensation. And any compensation that does come, mostly comes out taxes paid to government, not from the billions of dollars worth of profits of these damned oil companies!

[Jack Weber]

And since both are fantasies and probably always will be, it doesn't matter...although, Quebec has oil and gas now too. In a few years, it may not be as clear who would survive and who wouldn't.

Then you aren't thinking. That isn't really surpassing. As I've said, Alberta owes its existence to this federation. Alberta owes the fact that it was settled by the people that it was to this federation. Alberta owes it's wealth to this federation. Why? Because it is the laws of this federation that allowed the people of Alberta to benefit first, before all others, from the wealth that Alberta is lucky enough to be sitting on. It is also the peaceful, stable, and well governed federation that Canada is that contributes to this. The fact that there are good transportation links to markets around the world (something an independent Alberta wouldn't have) and trade agreements that allow access to those markets makes Alberta stronger. Alberta owes many things to Canada, and in turn, Canada owes many things to Alberta. just like Quebec, Alberta is stronger as part of Canada than it ever would be on its own.

Or, you know, you could just leave. There's always that. I love this country. I don't want any part of it gone. Each region of this country adds to confederation, in ways that are both measurable and immeasurable. People who boil a country down to simple dollars and cents and nothing else don't really have any idea what this country is really about.

Spot on!!!

Well said!!!!

The problem is not Alberta or Quebec...It's SOME of the pseudo-opressed whiners who think they are under the thumb of some tyrannical dictatorial regime...

Crybabies...The lot of them!

Now....Let's all take a moment and have a cry for the pseudo-opressed whiners in both provinces....

WAAAAAAHHHHHHHH...WWWAAAAAAHHHHHHH...WAAAAAHHHHHH...

Ahhhh...

I feel better already...

[Jack Weber]

Well sure... pretty much any morons can get by if theyre born on top of a massive oil deposit during a time of rapidly increasing oil prices Look at Saudi Arabia or Iran... Im not sure why thats something anyone would brag about. And if the oil runs out, or the price tanks then youre just another Saskatchewan.

You also might want to do a little research into agricultural subsidies to the prairy provinces and the various farm rescue bills throughout the years every time grain prices tank... and the 50 cents per bushel subsidy the government gives Albertan farmers.

And of course the fact that Alberta is a landlocked province that could not even export a single drop of oil without help from ports on the US and Canadian coasts.

These Albertan crybabies have a very short memory,don't they?

They were Saskatchewan for most of their dust bowl existence,surviving on the good charity of the other "have" provinces.And now,when times are a little tougher in thos other provinces,the real virtue and character of SOME Albertans COMES shining through....

Nothing but selfish crybabies living in a culture of insular offense...

[Jack Weber]

WTF?

Kimmy, I read quickly through this thread and maybe I missed something. In general, I think that you Albertans are rubes.

Albertans vote more innocently than Quebecers.

And Northern Quebecers don't qualify as "rubes" also???

I've met a few Quebec ex-pats from Northern Ontario in my time..

The word "hilljack" comes to mind...

[Posc Student]

Bringing up the railroad as a reason why Alberta and the west shouldn't complian, really? All the provinces east of Ontario would be on the verge of bankruptcy if it wasn't for equalization payments and a lot of that money is coming from the West. Newfoundland and Labrador was on the verge of bankruptcy in 2004, imagine where we would have been if we never had equalization payments flowing in. In the meantime everyone needs to get over their damn selves and realize that we are living in a country and that's how things currently work.

One thing I don't understand is the tax break for oil sands development, I don't believe the offshore oil industry gets these tax breaks.

[g_bambino]

The problem is not Alberta or Quebec...It's SOME of the pseudo-opressed whiners who think they are under the thumb of some tyrannical dictatorial regime...

People should be free to criticise the arrangements, and some of the critique that comes out of Quebec or Alberta may have merit, but it then gets lost amongst all the faux outrage and irrational, emotive posturing.

[punked]

Bringing up the railroad as a reason why Alberta and the west shouldn't complian, really? All the provinces east of Ontario would be on the verge of bankruptcy if it wasn't for equalization payments and a lot of that money is coming from the West. Newfoundland and Labrador was on the verge of bankruptcy in 2004, imagine where we would have been if we never had equalization payments flowing in. In the meantime everyone needs to get over their damn selves and realize that we are living in a country and that's how things currently work.

One thing I don't understand is the tax break for oil sands development, I don't believe the offshore oil industry gets these tax breaks.

You pretty much ignore history when you say that. Equalization worked the other for most of history as Canada was collecting big bucks from the fisheries and using it to build a country. Most of which wasn't taking place in the East. Sorry the East has paid its fair share, and there is nothing wrong with that however to now pretend after we fished out the Ocean so that this country could grow that we now deserve nothing is stupid.

[Shwa]

The reason you "gave" us the railroad is so that you could plunder our resources. Ever heard of the wheat board? Forcing western farmers to sell at the prices you set. Punitive import duties on farm implements for which we had to pay horrendous transportation costs for tractors et al which were inferior eastern Canada products. And on it goes.

In fact you owe us.

No. In fact, you "owe" us - "us" being every other citizen in Canada, as it is designed and operating today. There is no "Alberta" other than that which exists and at the leisure of the Government of Canada. Practically ALL of Alberta is under Indian Treaty. There is no "separate" Alberta any more than there is a separate Quebec or Ontario. Period. End of story.

So there is no "your" resources, because when it comes right down to it, the country owns all the land and all the natural resources contained therein. The country can nationalize the whole thing if they wanted to and there isn't a damned thing you or your provincial legislature can do about it. "We" own it and "we" decide.

Nobody likes a whiner on the bench. Especially one that thinks they are somehow privledged because they happen to be born in a particular part of the country. So either quit your petty, misguided, historically inaccurate belly-aching or get out of the game and move someplace else. I hear there is a vacant shack available near Lincoln, Montana.

[Posc Student]

You pretty much ignore history when you say that. Equalization worked the other for most of history as Canada was collecting big bucks from the fisheries and using it to build a country. Most of which wasn't taking place in the East. Sorry the East has paid its fair share, and there is nothing wrong with that however to now pretend after we fished out the Ocean so that this country could grow that we now deserve nothing is stupid.

I'm not saying we deserve nothing but saying one has contributed more then the other one is a pointless conversation.

[punked]

I'm not saying we deserve nothing but saying one has contributed more then the other one is a pointless conversation.

That was my point in the first place. Which is why I prefaced most of what I was saying with "It builds a stronger Canada and I am all for that".

[fellowtraveller]

I think that there is a perception in Alberta that Quebec voters meet one night, before a federal election, and decide what is best. Quebec - those French guys - they're a conspiracy.

Ahh, the arrogance canot help but emerge.

newsflash: Alberta frankly does not give a shit what Quebec does or thinks, electorally or otherwise. We respect your right to determine your future, but no longer concede that you have any right to determine ours.

Leave .

Stay.

Whatever.

[kimmy]

You pretty much ignore history when you say that. Equalization worked the other for most of history as Canada was collecting big bucks from the fisheries and using it to build a country. Most of which wasn't taking place in the East. Sorry the East has paid its fair share, and there is nothing wrong with that however to now pretend after we fished out the Ocean so that this country could grow that we now deserve nothing is stupid.

Your knowledge of history has been shown to be a little suspect as well. Your ideas about the railroad and the grain elevators in particular.

The idea that the Maritimes depleted their fisheries trying to provide a good quality of life for people on the prairies is fiction.

Equalization in the formal sense didn't come about until 1957, and Alberta has been a contributor to it every year since 1964. It would have been a contributor right from day 1, except that the first draft of the formula didn't take resource revenues into account. Formal equalization arrived way after Alberta needed it.

The prairies still received financial support prior to equalization, of course, but the federal government did things on the cheap in the prairies. It wasn't like they went around building hospitals and communities and roads in every community. The infrastructure on the prairies was utterly pathetic for much of the 20th century. The kinds of services we take for granted didn't exist. The idea of a country where all Canadians can enjoy access to a uniform level of services is relatively recent, it didn't exist when the prairie provinces were new, and the federal government certainly didn't spend any great amount of money trying to provide it. Certainly not the amount of money that it would have cost had the formal equalization plan existed 50 years sooner.

-k

[Jack Weber]

People should be free to criticise the arrangements, and some of the critique that comes out of Quebec or Alberta may have merit, but it then gets lost amongst all the faux outrage and irrational, emotive posturing.

Absolutely....

[kimmy]

The opening post mentions the NEP as a reason Albertans distrust the Liberals, and that's true. While the NEP was one short-lived program, I think it's emblematic of a bigger ideological difference.

The NEP was in part a reflection of the Liberal vision of a strong federal government with weaker provinces. Albertans (like Quebecers) believe in the opposite.

-k

[Jack Weber]

No. In fact, you "owe" us - "us" being every other citizen in Canada, as it is designed and operating today. There is no "Alberta" other than that which exists and at the leisure of the Government of Canada. Practically ALL of Alberta is under Indian Treaty. There is no "separate" Alberta any more than there is a separate Quebec or Ontario. Period. End of story.

So there is no "your" resources, because when it comes right down to it, the country owns all the land and all the natural resources contained therein. The country can nationalize the whole thing if they wanted to and there isn't a damned thing you or your provincial legislature can do about it. "We" own it and "we" decide.

Nobody likes a whiner on the bench. Especially one that thinks they are somehow privledged because they happen to be born in a particular part of the country. So either quit your petty, misguided, historically inaccurate belly-aching or get out of the game and move someplace else. I hear there is a vacant shack available near Lincoln, Montana.

Another one on my team,huh?

Proud Eastern Bastards Union Local #1

[kimmy]

So there is no "your" resources, because when it comes right down to it, the country owns all the land and all the natural resources contained therein. The country can nationalize the whole thing if they wanted to and there isn't a damned thing you or your provincial legislature can do about it. "We" own it and "we" decide.

I don't think the law of the land provides "you" of any way of putting the genie back in the bottle.

-k

[Shwa]

I don't think the law of the land provides "you" of any way of putting the genie back in the bottle.

-k

Really? What is legally stopping the Government of Canada from nationalizing oil and gas? Or settling land claims with the Treaty 8 Indians for example, that give them control over the territories and resources of the treaty area? Anything?

[Jack Weber]

Really? What is legally stopping the Government of Canada from nationalizing oil and gas? Or settling land claims with the Treaty 8 Indians for example, that give them control over the territories and resources of the treaty area? Anything?

Absolutely nothing...And if Canada is divisible,like Quebec,so is Alberta....

[kimmy]

Really? What is legally stopping the Government of Canada from nationalizing oil and gas? Or settling land claims with the Treaty 8 Indians for example, that give them control over the territories and resources of the treaty area? Anything?

The federal government can't bypass the province in negotiating land claims.

As for nationalizing resources... how would that go, exactly? How would it be done legally?

-k

[Shwa]

The federal government can't bypass the province in negotiating land claims.

Really? Legal citation please.

As for nationalizing resources... how would that go, exactly? How would it be done legally?

Taxation.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

We need to stop giving subsidies to oil companies.

We need to stop giving subsidies to corporate farms.

[kimmy]

The Natural Resources Transfer Agreement gave crown lands to the province. It says that the province must return crown lands to the federal government where required for land claim settlements, but it also specifies that such transfer occur with the agreement of the provincial government. So that seems clear enough.

So you'd nationalize the energy industry by using taxes to attempt to drive out private industry and using a crown corporation to buy vacated assets? That was tried once already and regardless, wouldn't end the province as a legal entity or even remove the provinces' royalty rights.

-k

[Molly]

Really? What is legally stopping the Government of Canada from nationalizing oil and gas? Or settling land claims with the Treaty 8 Indians for example, that give them control over the territories and resources of the treaty area? Anything?

Oh piffle. The ultimate bottom line on all things political is the consent of the people involved.

While we could argue the legal questions up down and sideways, the real answer is 'because western Canada would refuse to go along with it, and then you would have a bit of a problem'.

[g_bambino]

Absolutely nothing...

Except the constitution. Natural resources are the domain of the provinces.