NDP Constitution - An exercise in Marxism

[Guest Derek L]

Again you can go read plenty of party history which shows how they have treated both socialist and communists in the party. Only someone who has blinders on would think the NDP is socialist after they kicked out thousands of members for their socialist beliefs.

Fair enough, just as many of the extreme social conservatives have left the Tories for Christian heritage, but why doesn't the NDP of 2011 (socialist free) provide their constitution to the public? They require new members to abide by it (and rightfully so), but why not allow independents the chance to read it first?

The Tories, Liberals and Greens do, why not the NDP? What is so different about Jack's plan for changing how Ottawa works?

[MiddleClassCentrist]

And where's the constitution. Keep dodging, but it won't work.

You know...

Something I don't understand is...

Why are conservative supporters so eager to try and force to the NDP be open and transparent, when their party leader (and now our PM) is one of the least transparent politicians in Canadian history.

[punked]

Fair enough, just as many of the extreme social conservatives have left the Tories for Christian heritage, but why doesn't the NDP of 2011 (socialist free) provide their constitution to the public? They require new members to abide by it (and rightfully so), but why not allow independents the chance to read it first?

The Tories, Liberals and Greens do, why not the NDP? What is so different about Jack's plan for changing how Ottawa works?

It is because their has been a motion to change huge parts of it for 2 years but we ran out of time to debate it. Only the membership can change it so after June it should be out there. They are waiting until convention I think.

[RNG]

You know...

Something I don't understand is...

Why are conservative supporters so eager to try and force to the NDP be open and transparent, when their party leader (and now our PM) is one of the least transparent politicians in Canadian history.

I guess the "you're as bad or worse than we are" argument just don't cut it.

[Guest Derek L]

You know...

Something I don't understand is...

Why are conservative supporters so eager to try and force to the NDP be open and transparent, when their party leader (and now our PM) is one of the least transparent politicians in Canadian history.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Let's suppose the NDP holds themselves in higher regard then the Tories, wouldn't stooping even lower then the CPC by not making their constitution public, imply that the NDP, if they became the governing party, would be even less transparent?

[Guest Derek L]

It is because their has been a motion to change huge parts of it for 2 years but we ran out of time to debate it. Only the membership can change it so after June it should be out there. They are waiting until convention I think.

When did they take the old one down? Also, baring the NDP members are planning some drastic change, wouldn't the old one be good enough for a form of reference........they could even add in the preamble that it's a work in progress....

[punked]

When did they take the old one down? Also, baring the NDP members are planning some drastic change, wouldn't the old one be good enough for a form of reference........they could even add in the preamble that it's a work in progress....

That isn't how the party works. The party membership can change it or they can't. They can't pretend it says something it doesn't say. However I am pretty sure they are going to deal with it in a month at Convention.

It isn't like the CPC's Constitution which was crafted in the 2000s full of political correctness, it is an aged and worn document which needs some changes to it.

[Evening Star]

If you are a fascist or have a history of being a fascist you would not be welcome in the Tory party. But the NDP has never had any particular inclination to boot out communists or those with communist beliefs. In fact, the guy they ran in Gatineau who defeated Lawrence Cannon previously ran under the Communist banner. And no one in the NDP finds that to be an issue.

I'll level with you: I'm not a communist but I don't think communism and fascism are equivalent at all. Much of my family still lives here, in a state that has been ruled by peaceful and democratically elected Communist/Marxist governments for most of its history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala_model

I don't think that model should be applied to Canada, and it certainly has its faults, but great social advances were also made because of Communist rule, without the sort of oppression or violence you find in totalitarian states. I can think of no comparable example of peaceful, democratic, or progressive fascism.

[Guest Derek L]

That isn't how the party works. The party membership can change it or they can't. They can't pretend it says something it doesn't say. However I am pretty sure they are going to deal with it in a month at Convention.

It isn't like the CPC's Constitution which was crafted in the 2000s full of political correctness, it is an aged and worn document which needs some changes to it.

Sure, the Tories posted theirs awhile ago, and as a member of the party I haven't seen anything really change or need to.......but we're talking about the NDP.......How about this, what did the old NDP constitution say?

[punked]

Sure, the Tories posted theirs awhile ago, and as a member of the party I haven't seen anything really change or need to.......but we're talking about the NDP.......How about this, what did the old NDP constitution say?

Most the Constitution doesn't say anything like the Conservative one. However the preamble can be interpreted in many ways one of them is toward central planning.

However when it is viewed as where it moved from it becomes quite apparent that it is actually talking about moving to mixed market system. This required however understanding of party history. That is why it needs to be tidied up so other parties don't point to it saying what it doesn't say.

Edited May 11, 2011 by punked

[Evening Star]

Sure, the Tories posted theirs awhile ago, and as a member of the party I haven't seen anything really change or need to.......but we're talking about the NDP.......How about this, what did the old NDP constitution say?

The outdated 2001 constitution can be easily found via Google: http://www.scribd.com/doc/28843857/Federal-NDP-Constitution-Out-of-Date-2001

and yes, it has all that stuff about democratic socialism in the preamble. It has been written about a lot.

[KeyStone]

A modern regulatory system would prevent the dramatic swings in the airline sector by imposing responsible limits on the overall capacity growth of carriers. It would stop the destructive attacks of one company on another through excess capacity. It would also mean our federal government taking an equity stake in Air Canada Source

This is not such a bad thing. When there are significant barriers to competition restricting the emergence of near perfect competition, government intervention and regulation is necessary. For key industries, there are goals other than profit. Without that, corporations wouldn't bother supplying internet, phone, or other services to remote communities.

That the production and distribution of goods and services shall be directed to meeting the social and individual needs of people within a sustainable environment and economy and not to the making of profit

Ok, I'll give you this one. LOL. That needs to be updated from the 1848 text in which it was taken from.

To modify and control the operations of the monopolistic productive and distributive organizations through economic and social planning. Towards these ends and where necessary, the extension of the principle of social ownership….

Not entirely sure what they mean by this, but again intervention is necessary when you have near monopolies.

The New Democratic Party is proud to be associated with the democratic socialist parties of the world and to share the struggle for peace, international co-operation and the abolition of poverty.

Well, you seem to be ignoring the word democratic.

Regardless, absolutely nothing wrong with being friends with Chavez or Castro.

Harper for instance has no issues with trading with China, Saudi Arabia or Colombia.

Do you take issue with that?

[Guest Derek L]

Most the Constitution doesn't say anything like the Conservative one. However the preamble can be interpreted in many ways one of them is toward central planning.

Central Planning?!?!?!?!

The outdated 2001 constitution can be easily found via Google: http://www.scribd.co...ut-of-Date-2001

and yes, it has all that stuff about democratic socialism in the preamble. It has been written about a lot.

Thanks for the link.

So, have the NDP drastically moved away from "central planning" and "democratic socialism"? Can it be expected that the NDP membership of 2011 is moving away from this old stance? Were Layton’s comments on regulating gas prices and setting interest rates just a slip of the tongue?

[punked]

Central Planning?!?!?!?!

Thanks for the link.

So, have the NDP drastically moved away from "central planning" and "democratic socialism"? Can it be expected that the NDP membership of 2011 is moving away from this old stance? Were Layton’s comments on regulating gas prices and setting interest rates just a slip of the tongue?

Interest rates are already set through central planning by the bank of Canada. 4 provinces already regulate their gas prices and the governments who passed those laws were Conservatives and Liberals.

Sorry you are going have to do better then "THE NDP WANT TO DO WHAT IS ALREADY DONE!" To scare people.

As for Central planning that isn't what is meant in the preamble. Although you would have to get into party history to actually understand the preamble which is why most NDPers and other people ignore it.

[Guest Derek L]

Interest rates are already set through central planning by the bank of Canada. 4 provinces already regulate their gas prices and the governments who passed those laws were Conservatives and Liberals.

Sorry you are going have to do better then "THE NDP WANT TO DO WHAT IS ALREADY DONE!" To scare people.

As for Central planning that isn't what is meant in the preamble. Although you would have to get into party history to actually understand the preamble which is why most NDPers and other people ignore it.

But the Bank of Canada sets rates independently.....As for regulated gas prices, how well did that work out for PEI?.....Does Layton plan to nationalize the oil companies?

So are you saying the NDP doesn't provide their constitution to the public for fear of confusing them?

[punked]

But the Bank of Canada sets rates independently.....As for regulated gas prices, how well did that work out for PEI?.....Does Layton plan to nationalize the oil companies?

So are you saying the NDP doesn't provide their constitution to the public for fear of confusing them?

It works out fine for PEI, NB and NS. It has its pros and cons, people can plan around gas prices, it stops rural gas stations from closing because they can plan ahead, and it protects the consumers from fluctuation like the 8 cents gas spike yesterday in Ontario. I don't know why you point to it like it some sort of failure on the scope of other plans implemented it has fans and it has detractors but all in all it isn't a failure or success.

The bank of Canada is an arms length organization which belongs to the GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. Yep the government already sets interest rates sorry.

No I am saying the NDP is in an internal debate right now about their constitution and it would not be a proper document to show what the party stands for until the party actually has a large scale debate about it which is set for a month from now in which the membership has their say.

[Guest Derek L]

It works out fine for PEI, NB and NS. It has its pros and cons, people can plan around gas prices, it stops rural gas stations from closing because they can plan ahead, and it protects the consumers from fluctuation like the 8 cents gas spike yesterday in Ontario. I don't know why you point to it like it some sort of failure on the scope of other plans implemented it has fans and it has detractors but all in all it isn't a failure or success.

But, the prices in those provinces tend to be near the ceiling/upper limit......The Oil companies slowed the shipping oil after PEI did it.

The bank of Canada is an arms length organization which belongs to the GOVERNMENT OF CANADA. Yep the government already sets interest rates sorry

I know how the Bank of Canada works

http://www.bankofcanada.ca/about/who-we-are/

The Bank is not a government department and conducts its activities with considerable independence compared with most other federal institutions. For example:

•The Governor and Senior Deputy Governor are appointed by the Bank's Board of Directors (with the approval of Cabinet), not by the federal government.

•The Deputy Minister of Finance sits on the Board of Directors but has no vote.

•The Bank submits its expenditures to its Board of Directors. Federal government departments submit theirs to the Treasury Board.

•Bank employees are regulated by the Bank itself, not by federal public service agencies.

•The Bank's books are audited by external auditors appointed by Cabinet on the recommendation of the Minister of Finance, not by the Auditor General of Canada.

Didn't Layton talk about changing the systems workings?

No I am saying the NDP is in an internal debate right now about their constitution and it would not be a proper document to show what the party stands for until the party actually has a large scale debate about it which is set for a month from now in which the membership has their say.

Has the party changed that drastically in ~10 years?

Why do new members have to abide by the current constitution, if its outdated?

Will the new constitution be made public once it's drafted?

[punked]

But, the prices in those provinces tend to be near the ceiling/upper limit......The Oil companies slowed the shipping oil after PEI did it.

No those prices tend to be the same average before regulation as after. All regulation does is take out the peaks and valleys in the prices. I think last NS election this became and issue and a right wing think tank did a study and said over a year depending on when you would buy gas the regulation costs the consumer between 1-5 dollars extra. The problem isn't regulation it is that is PEI always has been always will be.

I know how the Bank of Canada works

http://www.bankofcanada.ca/about/who-we-are/

Didn't Layton talk about changing the systems workings?

Nope he just said 5% above prime. I was just pointing out if regulating interest rates was a big deal to you then you would be pissed the Canadian government already does it. You aren't you are just grasping at straws.

Has the party changed that drastically in ~10 years?

Yes but that is beside the point. The party has drastically changed over the last 60 years and that was when the preamble was written. I agree we need to debate it and I am pretty sure it is on the docket for Conventions.

Why do new members have to abide by the current constitution, if its outdated?

Will the new constitution be made public once it's drafted?

No one abides by the constitution most of the constitution is a set a rules of how to conduct party business. Like how much time has to spent at convention talking about resolutions, how those resolutions reach the floor and so on. You speak of it as if it some set of rules people must live their lives by. Once you get past the preamble it is just all rules and procedures how the party must function it has nothing the effects individual members.

If it is made public is up to the membership I can't speak for everyone in the party. It is something we have to decided democratically that is how my party works. Sorry if you don't like that.

Edited May 11, 2011 by punked

[RNG]

Nope he just said 5% above prime. I was just pointing out if regulating interest rates was a big deal to you then you would be pissed the Canadian government already does it. You aren't you are just grasping at straws.

That was for credit card rates. What a joke. That would push most lower middle class and under people to where no company would give them any credit at all. Too much risk. They need the high rates to cover the losses.

Edited May 11, 2011 by RNG

[punked]

That was for credit card rates. What a joke. That would push most lower middle class and under people to where no company would give them any credit at all. Too much risk. They need the high rates to cover the losses.

See these are the types of debates we should be engaging in. Not crazy debates about if a party is a bunch of Commies or Nazis. These are the types of debates that will lift the discourse of the country and make politics accessible to all.

Now would you agree the government has a right to regulate interest rates? That is the starting point. We can argue the number after you agree to that statement.

[RNG]

See these are the types of debates we should be engaging in. Not crazy debates about if a party is a bunch of Commies or Nazis. These are the types of debates that will lift the discourse of the country and make politics accessible to all.

Now would you agree the government has a right to regulate interest rates? That is the starting point. We can argue the number after you agree to that statement.

No, I do not. Let the market set them. There are enough credit card companies that the competition should do it. Now, there is a need for some regulation, or at least the firm application of existing laws. This is based on an internet search for my son who asked a question about a company that offered a credit card at a very low rate. I googled it and found a bitch site where all kinds of people were dumping on that particular company. I guess their favorite trick was to advertise a very low rate, but if you were late paying, the rate skyrocketed. So they would mail you your bill one day before it was due. Well, neither Canada Post nor the US postal service are that good. A total rip-off. That kind of thing needs to be addressed harshly.

[Guest Derek L]

No those prices tend to be the same average before regulation as after. All regulation does is take out the peaks and valleys in the prices. I think last NS election this became and issue and a right wing think tank did a study and said over a year depending on when you would buy gas the regulation costs the consumer between 1-5 dollars extra. The problem isn't regulation it is that is PEI always has been always will be.

http://nrcan.gc.ca/eneene/sources/pripri/regreg-eng.php

Most evidence suggests that regulation, while keeping prices more stable, does not lead to lower prices for consumers. Five provinces, Newfoundland and Labrador, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Quebec, currently regulate gasoline prices.

Consumers in those provinces see fewer changes in prices but they are not paying less for gasoline on average than other Canadians.

So does the NDP want to nationalize the oil & gas industry?

Nope he just said 5% above prime. I was just pointing out if regulating interest rates was a big deal to you then you would be pissed the Canadian government already does it. You aren't you are just grasping at straws.

The Government of Canada doesn't regulate interest rates, the Bank of Canada does.....Does the NDP want to nationalize the banking industry?

Yes but that is beside the point. The party has drastically changed over the last 60 years and that was when the preamble was written. I agree we need to debate it and I am pretty sure it is on the docket for Conventions.

How has it changed, aside from becoming the official opposition?

No one abides by the constitution most of the constitution is a set a rules of how to conduct party business. Like how much time has to spent at convention talking about resolutions, how those resolutions reach the floor and so on. You speak of it as if it some set of rules people must live their lives by. Once you get past the preamble it is just all rules and procedures how the party must function it has nothing the effects individual members.

If it is made public is up to the membership I can't speak for everyone in the party. It is something we have to decided democratically that is how my party works. Sorry if you don't like that.

Didn't you just criticize the Liberals for wanting to change their constitution? Isn't that hypocritical?

So the NDP isn't for transparency? Shouldn't the voters in Canada be able to look on the side of the box at the list of ingredients?

[cybercoma]

why doesn't the NDP of 2011 (socialist free) provide their constitution to the public?

Because, as punked has mentioned numerous times, it is in the process of being reworked to reflect the shift towards the centre that the party has undergone in the last 20 years or so. When it's formalized and the changes ratified by its members, a constitution that actually reflects the current party will be available.

[Guest Derek L]

Because, as punked has mentioned numerous times, it is in the process of being reworked to reflect the shift towards the centre that the party has undergone in the last 20 years or so. When it's formalized and the changes ratified by its members, a constitution that actually reflects the current party will be available.

So the NDP is moving to the "center"?

[jbg]

This document is a document that severely limits rights and freedoms of business and frankly strives to create more government owned and controlled entities.

Can someone link me to the NDP Constitution itself? I'd rather judge this one for myself.