Albertan Sovereignty

[Smallc]

Does that apply to other provinces too?

Yes.

I'm wondering what dollar amount Alberta gets from the hydro Revenues of Manitoba or Quebec? You know, those accidents of geography that you think are wholly responsible for Albertas finanical success.

But of course, you already know that Alberta has a GDP per capita almost twice that of Quebec, and about 1.5 times that of Manitoba. It isn't as if hydro revenues come anywhere close to comparing. Manitoba though, is starting to get oil revenue (though its still a very small amount) and Quebec will soon begin exploration.

[August1991]

Buushit. Most of the people in Alberta are not from Alberta, and very few want to separate.

This OP is just more trolling from the TrollMeister, or should I say agent provocateur?

Because they don't need the financial drain of the EU and can easily afford the massive social contract they enjoy becuase they have lots of dead dinosaurs just offshore. Norway has been a soveriegn nation for a long time, and did not 'opt out', there was nothign previous to opt out from. They chose not to join, because basically it would be a majpor net loss financially for them.

Aberta is compeltely different, it has never been sovereign and never will be.

By the way, their is almost never any public whining or indeed any public discussion in Alberta about the amount paid in equalization to the feds and thus other provinces, or of the giant disparity in all federal funds spent here.

Albertans are unquestionably Canadians first, anything else second. If that makes us whiners, so be it.

FT, you are welcome to disagree with me but our disagreement hardly makes me a "TrollMeister".

The OP may be provocative (a political discussion forum would be boring otherwise) but it's not designed with ulterior motives. It is reasonable to ask if Albertans with about 30 MPs in opposition are going to sit back and pay in effect higher taxes so that politicians can perform social experiments with the money.

When Norway saw what the EU involved, they said no. Norway didn't want to write cheques for other governments.

What? No. Provinces set their own tax rates. Alberta has a flat 10% tax above a certain tax free amount (amongst the lowest rates in Canada for earners of any income). Equalization comes only from federal taxes, and is given to provinces who do not meet a certain arithmetic average in terms of fiscal capacity. At current, those provinces are, from west to east: Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, and Nova Scotia.

The problem some Albertans (and Ontarians) have with the current system is that they contribute more in federal taxes than they get back in federal services. As a have province, Alberta gets less from the Canada Health Transfer and no Equalization. Ontario, as a have not province, still pays out billions more than it receives.

Smallc, you are disingenuous and even wrong.

First of all, federal income tax rates are not the same across Canada. Quebec taxpayers, for example, pay lower federal tax than elsewhere because of the Quebec abatement.

Moreover, since more people are working in Alberta and they tend to have higher incomes, the federal government collects more tax revenue in Alberta on a per capita basis. In 2002 for example, the federal government collected in income tax about $3370 from each person in Alberta, about $3180 from each person in Ontario and about $2390 from each person in Quebec. Stats here.

Lastly, the equalization formula is complex and few people really understand it well. It has been jigged and rejigged over time. If I understand properly, revenues from renewable energy sources are treated differently from non-renewable energy sources. As a result, both Quebec and Manitoba have a pernicious incentive to underprice their hydro so that their crown corporations don't earn more profits paying more into government coffers. Link

[Smallc]

First of all, federal income tax rates are not the same across Canada. Quebec taxpayers, for example, pay lower federal tax than elsewhere because of the Quebec abatement.

Any province that wanted the same arrangement could get it. These are tax points shifted to Quebec to pay for programs that would otherwise be cost shared. That's a bad example on your part.

Moreover, since more people are working in Alberta and they tend to have higher incomes, the federal government collects more tax revenue in Alberta on a per capita basis. In 2002 for example, the federal government collected in income tax about $3370 from each person in Alberta, about $3180 from each person in Ontario and about $2390 from each person in Quebec. Stats here.

But the rates are the same, so I'm still right, and you're wrong.

Lastly, the equalization formula is complex and few people really understand it well. It has been jigged and rejigged over time. If I understand properly, revenues from renewable energy sources are treated differently from non-renewable energy sources. As a result, both Quebec and Manitoba have a pernicious incentive to underprice their hydro so that their crown corporations don't earn more profits paying more into government coffers. Link

It has nothing to do with how much money goes into provincial coffers, but rather a hypothetical amount of revenue at a hypothetical, average, tax rate.

[fellowtraveller]

When Norway saw what the EU involved, they said no. Norway didn't want to write cheques for other governments.

I'll try again. Your analogy is useless. Norway is a sovereign country that chose not to join a proposed political union, mainly because their was no perceived net financial advantage to them. They don't need to protect their domestic market from cheap Chinese goods. They don't need a captive European base of consumers for highpriced made-in-Europe goods. They are quite capable of funding their own social contract without any help.

Some of those things apply to Alberta too, but the big difference is that Alberta is not a soverign country and won't be , ever.

And I have even worse news - Quebec isn't a sovereign country either.

[August1991]

Any province that wanted the same arrangement could get it. These are tax points shifted to Quebec to pay for programs that would otherwise be cost shared. That's a bad example on your part.

....

But the rates are the same, so I'm still right, and you're wrong.

...

It has nothing to do with how much money goes into provincial coffers, but rather a hypothetical amount of revenue at a hypothetical, average, tax rate.

Smallc, fine. You win. You're right.

I'll try again. Your analogy is useless. Norway is a sovereign country that chose not to join a proposed political union, mainly because their was no perceived net financial advantage to them.

FT, my point is that many Norwegians didn't want to fund a common EU budget.

Your argument that Norway chose not to join the EU whereas Alberta would have to leave a confederation is beside the point.

I can see a future Wild Rose government in Alberta arguing strenuously for changes to equalization/shared cost agreements because Albertans no longer want to fund the social experiments of a government without Albertan MPs in Ottawa.

[Roger Steele]

Will people in Alberta continue to accept to pay taxes/equalization to other provincial governments? Why be vilified?

----

I'm no Albertan but even I can see the hypocrisy in this.

If Layton is Official Opposition leader, and if I were Albertan, I would do as Norway did. Opt out. Immediately. Norway is not part of the European Union, and doesn't use the euro. Norway has a wonderful reputation in the world, as an independant state. Yet, Norway is still a member of NATO.

Alberta, the Norway of the New World.

There was much talk of separation in the Trudeau era, especially after the implementation of the National Energy Program.

During the 70s Alberta had a huge budget surplus which was put into the Alberta Heritage Fund. The last I heard there was over $15 Billion in the fund and the bulk of it was loaned out to other provinces.

[CANADIEN]

I can see a future Wild Rose government in Alberta arguing strenuously for changes to equalization/shared cost agreements because Albertans no longer want to fund the social experiments of a government without Albertan MPs in Ottawa.

There will be MPs from Alberta in Ottawa. The "the rest of the country doesn't like Alberta because they don't vote Conservative" line is getting as tiresome as it is childish.

If someone wants me to vote for a party with an Alberta leader, simple - offer me a party with an Alberta leader I can vote for.

[Scotty]

That's because Alberta has the second largest government in the country. Alberta needs to do some serious cutting.

Alberta's government is bigger than Quebec's? I find that difficult to believe.

[Smallc]

There was a story in the Globe two years ago . Per capita, Newfoundland and Labrador, and Alberta have the largest governments in the country.

[fellowtraveller]

Your argument that Norway chose not to join the EU whereas Alberta would have to leave a confederation is beside the point.

That was not my argument. Alberta has no plans to leave Canada. Your fantasies will not be realized.

I can see a future Wild Rose government in Alberta

Then you need to put down the crack pipe. The Wild Rose Party will not form a government, because like the rest of Canada Albwertans naturally move to the center, and the Tories in AB now control all of the center. NDP on the left, Wild Rose on the right, both nicely isolated by recent events and game,set, match.

They are in the process of absorbing the rest of the provincial Liberals. They are about to elect Gary Mar, red Tory, as leader. Game over for Wild Rose.

[BornAlbertan]

But the rates are the same, so I'm still right, and you're wrong.

Actually, I would say it depends on how you look at it.

By and large Albertans make more...so by and large they are in a different tax bracket:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html

Thing that pisses me off is I am in the 26% tax bracket and have to subsidize someone elses caviar lifestyle (best health care in the country, $7/day daycare etc...) while they should only be eating chopped liver because that is all they are willing to work for (and can barely aford that!) yet think they are entitled to more because "vee are a deestinkt nayseeon"

I work for filet mignon and am told I have to have a McDonald's so we can all eat the same...screw that! I work hard for what I want and I budget for what I can't immediately afford!

And taking a look at the aggregated provincial tax rates, Alberta does NOT have the lowest tax rates unless you are making such stupid amounts of money you shouldn't be worrying about taxes...but they are still pretty low

Edited May 2, 2011 by BornAlbertan

[nittanylionstorm07]

Actually, I would say it depends on how you look at it.

By and large Albertans make more...so by and large they are in a different tax bracket:

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/ndvdls/fq/txrts-eng.html

Thing that pisses me off is I am in the 26% tax bracket and have to subsidize someone elses caviar lifestyle (best health care in the country, $7/day daycare etc...) while they should only be eating chopped liver because that is all they are willing to work for (and can barely aford that!) yet think they are entitled to more because "vee are a deestinkt nayseeon"

I work for filet mignon and am told I have to have a McDonald's so we can all eat the same...screw that! I work hard for what I want and I budget for what I can't immediately afford!

Sounds like you are just jealous with the fact that they run their province better than Alberta runs theirs. If you have a problem with that, vote in a different government for once.

[BornAlbertan]

Sounds like you are just jealous with the fact that they run their province better than Alberta runs theirs. If you have a problem with that, vote in a different government for once.

Sounds to me like you just don't know what you are talking about in thinking Quebec is better run province with a $163 billion debt vs $828 million?!

http://www.budget.finances.gouv.qc.ca/Budget/2011-2012/en/documents/BudgetPlan.pdf

http://www.finance.alberta.ca/business/debt/index.html

I will cut you some slack. It must be hard being an armchair Canadian from Indiana. And before you throw the "oil money" argument out there, tell you what, ask ANYONE what got Alberta debt free through the 90's when oil was at $18 a barrel.

Edited May 2, 2011 by BornAlbertan

[nittanylionstorm07]

Sounds to me like you just don't know what you are talking about in thinking Quebec is better run province with a $163 billion debt vs $828 million?!

http://www.budget.finances.gouv.qc.ca/Budget/2011-2012/en/documents/BudgetPlan.pdf

http://www.finance.alberta.ca/business/debt/index.html

I will cut you some slack. It must be hard being an armchair Canadian from Indiana. And before you throw the "oil money" argument out there, tell you what, ask ANYONE what got Alberta debt free through the 90's when oil was at $18 a barrel.

lol "armchair Canadian". Perhaps you should stop sounding so jealous of all of the services Quebec provides to its people, and instead, ask your own government to provide it? That's the point of democracy.. people get to choose their leaders.

All I know it that if I took a shot of whiskey every time I heard an Albertan complain about Quebec, I'd be in a perpetually comatose state.

Albertans like you need to realize that you are part of a confederation and that there is a price for that. You pay taxes to the federal government so the federal government can spend that money on areas that need it. The same thing happens in America and many other areas in the world where there is a Federal/Suprafederal government collecting taxes. To perpetually whine about it is more annoying than Quebec separatists... at least they are in decline and realize (for the most part) the sadness of their position.

[Dave_ON]

How come it doesn't bother you that Quebecers are Quebecers first and Canadians a very distant second - if at all?

Excuse me but nobody celebrates moving day... err Canada day as hard as Quebec.

[Dave_ON]

Natural resources belong to the provinces. Get your facts straight before turning your covetous eyes on Alberta's wealth.

Oh my "covetous", quick wyly offer a libation in propitiation of your iniquity.

See I can wax biblical also.

[BornAlbertan]

lol "armchair Canadian". Perhaps you should stop sounding so jealous of all of the services Quebec provides to its people, and instead, ask your own government to provide it? That's the point of democracy.. people get to choose their leaders."

Hmmmmm....so let me get this straight. As a fiscal conservative, instead of complaining about another province providing things ad nauseum to their people that they ultimately can't afford even without billions of dollars of handouts every year from other provinces...I should ask for them too because that is what democracy is about?!

Like I said though....I'll cut you some slack cause how would you understand (or care to). It ain't your money!

[nittanylionstorm07]

Hmmmmm....so let me get this straight. As a fiscal conservative, instead of complaining about another province providing things ad nauseum to their people that they ultimately can't afford even without billions of dollars of handouts every year from other provinces...I should ask for them too because that is what democracy is about?!

Like I said though....I'll cut you some slack cause how would you understand (or care to). It ain't your money!

So move there and vote/advocate for the party that supports the platform you advocate. You do have that option.

Other than that, your complaints are pretty meaningless.

[BornAlbertan]

So move there and vote/advocate for the party that supports the platform you advocate. You do have that option.

Other than that, your complaints are pretty meaningless.

And without citizenship or paying Canadian taxes, so is your opinion.

Thanks for coming out to play though.

[nittanylionstorm07]

And without citizenship or paying Canadian taxes, so is your opinion.

I agree 100%, actually. My opinion on the Canadian election *is* meaningless. I am not a Canadian citizen, so I don't get to have a voice. That doesn't mean I can't still enjoy it to my maximum potential from a distance, though.

On the other hand, you have many options to deal with your vile hatred of Quebec policies that you are not exploring. You could move there and help start to change it, for example.

Since you are doing nothing besides sitting there and whining incessantly like many other Albertans of your stripe, you really have no room to have an opinion on Quebec's policies.

[RNG]

I agree 100%, actually. My opinion on the Canadian election *is* meaningless. I am not a Canadian citizen, so I don't get to have a voice. That doesn't mean I can't still enjoy it to my maximum potential from a distance, though.

On the other hand, you have many options to deal with your vile hatred of Quebec policies that you are not exploring. You could move there and help start to change it, for example.

Since you are doing nothing besides sitting there and whining incessantly like many other Albertans of your stripe, you really have no room to have an opinion on Quebec's policies.

I quit whining a while ago. But I promised myself that if they ever have another referendum, I'm going there to campaign for the yes side.

[Tilter]

lol "armchair Canadian". Perhaps you should stop sounding so jealous of all of the services Quebec provides to its people, and instead, ask your own government to provide it? That's the point of democracy.. people get to choose their leaders.

All I know it that if I took a shot of whiskey every time I heard an Albertan complain about Quebec, I'd be in a perpetually comatose state.

Albertans like you need to realize that you are part of a confederation and that there is a price for that. You pay taxes to the federal government so the federal government can spend that money on areas that need it. The same thing happens in America and many other areas in the world where there is a Federal/Suprafederal government collecting taxes. To perpetually whine about it is more annoying than Quebec separatists... at least they are in decline and realize (for the most part) the sadness of their position.

When someone else buys the car it's really easy to buy a caddy or

all of the services Quebec provides to its people,

The province of Quebec has all the natural resources it needs to be a "have" province but through a lifetime of corruption, graft, political payoffs,crooked elections and especially the idiocy of bill 101 the province & it's dirty politicians has maneuvered itself into a theoretical "have not" province.

The PQ has been the biggest hindrance to business that Canada has seen and tonight will get it's ass handed to them on a silver platter.

Unfortunately, this means that the ROC will be harnessed with their debts for the next 20 years or so when a new separatist POLITICAL movement will again appeal to the Rabble Rousers and firebrand University students who have never earned a cent (much to the chagrin of the average citizen) & the neverend-dumb bullshit will again start.

[BornAlbertan]

I agree 100%, actually. My opinion on the Canadian election *is* meaningless. I am not a Canadian citizen, so I don't get to have a voice. That doesn't mean I can't still enjoy it to my maximum potential from a distance, though.

On the other hand, you have many options to deal with your vile hatred of Quebec policies that you are not exploring. You could move there and help start to change it, for example.

Since you are doing nothing besides sitting there and whining incessantly like many other Albertans of your stripe, you really have no room to have an opinion on Quebec's policies.

Ok, you are missing the point completely...and I don't mean to be in ass at all when pointing out your citizenship. I in fact think that is awesome you have an interest and knowledge in Canada; would avoid what happened on my honeymoon. Quick story: Was at Opryland (wife is a huge country music fan so perfect for our honeymoon ) and sitting at the bar I ordered a Crown and Coke and my wife a beer and clamato juice which will wonders never cease they had! Anyhow the bartender immediately asked where we were from and we said near Edmonton, Alberta. This woman who seemed very nice and wanted to make conversation proceeded to say "I went to Niagra Falls once, is that anywhere near where you live?" I instinctively looked like this:

Anyhow, imagine this scenario:

You have a sibling who is bad with money...I mean real bad. You told them that you would help them out cause you want to make sure your niece and nephew are taken care of. Admirable traits when it comes to "family".

Next thing you know you are shelling out more money for the bare necessities because your sibling is spending all this money you are giving them on things like iPods, Xbox and Nintendo DS. And since you can't let them starve, you give them more money. You can't tell them how to run their house otherwise they threaten to disown you and have nothing to do with you. So you suck it up....to keep peace. You pay up and shut up and they do what they want.

While in the meantime, you wouldn't provide this for your family because it is impractical; you want to save up for rainy days or hard times yourself. But you can't. This is unsettling too because you never know what might happen...hard times could come along and you were unprepared because all your money went into supporting their frivilousness and they can't cut back what they have given their family because they are spoiled and will bitch and whine until they get it some way some how. Now you are both broke because of their stupidity and your "obligation"...and they continue to pull you deeper into the abyss with them.

And then you tell me...a White-Anglosaxon-Heterosexual-Male-Protestant to go to Quebec and attempt to change it from the inside? Pardon my French, but are you fucking nuts?!

[BornAlbertan]

I quit whining a while ago. But I promised myself that if they ever have another referendum, I'm going there to campaign for the yes side.

ROFL...awesome

[Tilter]

I agree 100%, actually. My opinion on the Canadian election *is* meaningless. I am not a Canadian citizen, so I don't get to have a voice. That doesn't mean I can't still enjoy it to my maximum potential from a distance, though.

On the other hand, you have many options to deal with your vile hatred of Quebec policies that you are not exploring. You could move there and help start to change it, for example.

Since you are doing nothing besides sitting there and whining incessantly like many other Albertans of your stripe, you really have no room to have an opinion on Quebec's policies.

I did live there as a member of the working class and was repeatedly disgusted with th waste in government,

I was going to say spending but cut it short--government PERIOd.

My forefathers came from France to Ste Sophie in about 1650. They would be spinning in their graves if they saw the descent into shame the PQ, Bloc and now the liberals (Both)have done to the pride of a once gloriopus province.