Albertans and Quebeckers

[Scotty]

Who's kicking them?

Didn't Paul Martin run his last campaign on the danger to Canadians of having someone from Alberta as Prime Minister? I have a vague memory of his sinister allusions to foreign influences (Ie Alberta influences) in a conservative government, a danger to the values of all good, honest, hard-working central Canadians...

[bloodyminded]

Didn't Paul Martin run his last campaign on the danger to Canadians of having someone from Alberta as Prime Minister? I have a vague memory of his sinister allusions to foreign influences (Ie Alberta influences) in a conservative government, a danger to the values of all good, honest, hard-working central Canadians...

I don't recall this...but even so, we're talking about some ostensibly continuous "kicking" that makes it "understandable" why Albertans would wish to separate from Canada (unlike Quebec separatists, who are, like, totally different, man, because of....some reason, unstated).

[CANADIEN]

I don't recall this

I don't recall Martin saying that people should note vote Conservative because they were lead by somebody from Alberta. I do recall the Reform party running ads during the 1997 campaign, telling people not to vote for certain other political parties because they wre lead by Quebecers.

[William Ashley]

How does the rest of Canada deal with the incessant whining coming from Albertans and separatist Quebeckers?

Remembering they arn't Americans?

[kimmy]

I don't recall this...but even so, we're talking about some ostensibly continuous "kicking" that makes it "understandable" why Albertans would wish to separate from Canada (unlike Quebec separatists, who are, like, totally different, man, because of....some reason, unstated).

I'm a little surprised that people don't recall Martin telling Nova Scotians not to vote for Peter McKay because Calgarians would be running the show.

I'm certainly surprised that people don't recall Paul Martin standing on the stage next to his new best friend Buzz Hargrove, applauding while Hargrove accused Harper of being from Alberta and having Alberta values and not Canadian values. And in particular, I'm surprised that nobody outside of Alberta even seemed offended by it.

I felt a little "kicked" at the time.

-k

[Wild Bill]

...and it doesn't surprise me that WB doesn't understand how people can see a country for more than money and related subjects.

Never had a problem with that, myself. That's along the lines of how I see my country.

That being said, unlike some folks, I've never felt I had the right to tell OTHER Canadians how they're supposed to see their country!

It would be more positive to listen to Albertan views and try to deal with them than to simply tell them they are wrong and should suck it up! Or that the hardships they experienced from the NEP should simply be forgotten.

[CANADIEN]

Never had a problem with that, myself. That's along the lines of how I see my country.

That being said, unlike some folks, I've never felt I had the right to tell OTHER Canadians how they're supposed to see their country!

Some of those "some folks" include some Albertans, who act like if everyone should adopt their vision of the country because, well, they are from Alberta and not agreeing with them is some form of anti-Alberta feeling.

I for one have been listening to Reform and its political child the Conservative party for 20 years, and I still believe they are wrong. Nothing to do with where the party was born, and wher they get most of their support from.

[Smallc]

Never had a problem with that, myself. That's along the lines of how I see my country.

That's good. It seems Albertans feel the same way....and there's no reason that they shouldn't. Nothing bad has happened to them in a very long time. They play the same victim game that Quebec and Newfoundland and Labrador too often play.

[Benz]

Absolute bloody nonsense. Nuclear? Why not try aeronautics? Quebec wouldn't have an aerospace industry without all that federal money. Bombardier would have gone broke decades ago. Then there's the expensive dairy plans which guarantee huge payments to dairy farmers, most of whom are in Quebec. We could buy milk from New York at half the price. In every federal program, Quebec gets at least its share and usually more than its share due to incessant whining. We even move federal government buildings all the way to Shawinigan, Quebec, Trois Rivieres, Montreal, etc, not to mention the ones in Gatineau. Money for ports, bridges highways, airports, far more than anyone else gets.

The only reason Quebec hasn't separated is that despite all the sniveling and whining and complaints in public, the Quebec elites know in private that without the money coming from the other provinces they'd be bankrupt their first year of independence.

It's a chance that you stopped there because few more lines and you'll say that Ottawa help us to wipe our ass and flush the toilet. It is true that Ottawa invested alot of money in Québec but, overall, Québec doesn't get its share. Compared to the maritimes, Québec got more though. The only winning province in the balance, is Ontario.

We will never agree and probably never be able to sort out how much one does gets more or less. But there is one thing I know for sure. If the federal government was NOT sucking up that much money from the citizens, no one would have to whine about its share. The provincial government would spend what it can gets. The equalization program would be more meaningful too.

Prior to the second world war, the federal did not have such power of sucking money up. Unfortunatly, the english canada let Ottawa picks what it wants in our pockets. Only Québec was opposed to such intrusions and still is. In 1999, (the Social Union), the other provinces gave their benedictions again. Guess what province was the only against.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Benz

[ninjandrew]

That's good. It seems Albertans feel the same way....and there's no reason that they shouldn't. Nothing bad has happened to them in a very long time. They play the same victim game that Quebec and Newfoundland and Labrador too often play.

Victims of what, anyway? Sharing oil revenue? Unemployment? Im in forestry, Albertas a big forestry province, and there sure arent any jobs available in that field in Alberta.

[Scotty]

It's a chance that you stopped there because few more lines and you'll say that Ottawa help us to wipe our ass and flush the toilet.

No doubt that will come in the next big, indignant "quebec is being ripped off" protest from Charest and Duceppe.

It is true that Ottawa invested alot of money in Québec but, overall, Québec doesn't get its share. Compared to the maritimes, Québec got more though. The only winning province in the balance, is Ontario.

It never fails to amaze how people can buy the political propaganda coming from Quebec's nationalist industry. Ontario pays out billions every year to 'have-not' provinces like Quebec. Which is absurd. It's not like Quebec doesn't have the people or resources to pay its own bills, if it just wasn't so incompetently run by socialists who don't understand fiscal policy.

I would really love to see Quebec separate, just to have you all look around your very first budget and wonder how the hell you're going to pay for all the stuff you have without doubling your already high taxes. The realization that Greece has a healthier fiscal state than you guys without money pouring in from Alberta and Ontario would be a treasure to see.

[capricorn]

It never fails to amaze how people can buy the political propaganda coming from Quebec's nationalist industry. Ontario pays out billions every year to 'have-not' provinces like Quebec. Which is absurd. It's not like Quebec doesn't have the people or resources to pay its own bills, if it just wasn't so incompetently run by socialists who don't understand fiscal policy.

Like $7 a day child care available to all, subsidized by taxpayers in the ROC.

[Scotty]

Like $7 a day child care available to all, subsidized by taxpayers in the ROC.

An independent Quebec would be like the kid who whines and bitches at his parents until they get the highest level of cablevision. Then when he's finally out on his own, he's up on the roof trying to make the antenna bring in the porn stations. All those wonderful social programs they can't possibly do without now would be history in the event they ever got drunk enough to vote "yes" in a referendum.

[capricorn]

All signs are that the Parti Québécois will form Quebec’s next government after the province next goes to the polls. If so, PQ leader Pauline Marois already has indicated, her government will initiate a vigorous campaign of separatist agitation within Quebec, and make maximalist demands from the rest of Canada. As Stephen Harper recently has emphasized, the best way to deal with this threat is through a strong majority government that can stare the separatists down — much as Jean Chrétien did with his Clarity Act. Because minority governments are fragile, they inevitably encourage regional pandering. But the Canadian electorate is in no mood for yet more concessions to Quebec. The last thing we need is a minority government, headed by either Stephen Harper or Michael Ignatieff, that survives at the pleasure of Gilles Duceppe’s Bloc Québécois.

The PQ has returned to the brink of power largely because it has played down the sovereigntist angle for nearly a decade. Where once nearly half of Quebecers wanted out of Confederation, polls now consistently show that no more than a third support independence. The PQ are popular mostly because they are the not the discredited Jean Charest Liberals. Many Quebec voters may have convinced themselves it is safe to vote PQ again precisely because they can rid themselves of the unpopular Charest government without stirring the hornets’ nest of constitutional debates.

---

During her address to delegates, Ms. Marois said: “And for federalists who hoped that our will to build a country was going to fade after our convention, know that we leave here more determined, more united, stronger and more convinced than ever.” If this separatist dream ever comes to pass — the next prime minister must remind separatists — it will come at a cost. Quebec will no longer get the $8-billion-plus that Ottawa ships to the province each year in equalization subsidies. If Quebec wants financial help from Canada, it will have to ask for foreign aid.

---

Whoever wins the May 2 election — be it the Tories or the Liberals — likely will have to deal with a more activist separatist movement. And they will be playing from a stronger hand if they can summon the power of a parliamentary majority. It is something that voters should keep in mind when choosing a party to support.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/04/18/national-post-editorial-board-harper-the-best-leader-to-take-on-the-separatists/

It will come as no surprise that the NP posits that Harper is the leader best suited to confront another separatist threat. Regardless, the editorial lays out what we can expect from a reinvigorated PQ party.

[Wild Bill]

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/04/18/national-post-editorial-board-harper-the-best-leader-to-take-on-the-separatists/

It will come as no surprise that the NP posits that Harper is the leader best suited to confront another separatist threat. Regardless, the editorial lays out what we can expect from a reinvigorated PQ party.

If it comes to it, I think Harper should take a page from Trudeau's book. If the BQ and PQ start to seriously promote separation and another referendum again, he should immediately tell them that if Quebec chooses to be out then they are ALL the way out! No sovereignty association, no shared currency, no OAS, no CPP, no EI, no nothing! Canada can offer to have a good relationship with Quebec, just the same as we have with Britain, France or any other foreign country.

If Quebec feels they can use things like the St. Laurence Seaway as a lever, they should be shown that Canada can also play that game in other areas. If it becomes tit for tat, Quebec could be hurt just as badly if not worse than they can hurt Canada.

Quebec should also be told that Canada will defend the rights of the aboriginal peoples living in Quebec.

What the separatistes always seem to misunderstand is that if they choose to separate they will not be negotiating just with Ottawa. Whatever party is in power will be under intense pressure from the people in the rest of Canada, who will be angry and bitter at Quebec. They will be in no mood for anything that looks like an unfair concession to Quebec's benefit. A Liberal or a Tory government will be forced to be extremely hard-nosed with Quebec or they will certainly be hounded out of office by the remaining voters in TROC.

The separatistes would be fools if they go into any negotiations and not understand that. As I said, Trudeau made these things plain before the first referendum and Duceppe and the PQ lady need a reminder that nothing has changed.

The separatistes have always tried to make Quebecers believe that separation will be painless. It would be the duty of the federal government to make it plain that is simply not true.

[capricorn]

Excellent points WB. The majority of Quebecers are not fools. They know parting with that Canadian passport would cost them dearly.

[Bonam]

An independent Quebec would be like the kid who whines and bitches at his parents until they get the highest level of cablevision. Then when he's finally out on his own, he's up on the roof trying to make the antenna bring in the porn stations. All those wonderful social programs they can't possibly do without now would be history in the event they ever got drunk enough to vote "yes" in a referendum.

I wouldn't be so sure. As part of the separation proceedings/negotiations, I'm sure Quebec would find a way to dupe Canada into continuing to pay large amounts of money to Quebec for the foreseeable future.

[Smallc]

I wouldn't be so sure. As part of the separation proceedings/negotiations, I'm sure Quebec would find a way to dupe Canada into continuing to pay large amounts of money to Quebec for the foreseeable future.

I very much doubt that a very bitter Canada and the other 9 provinces would agree to anything like that. As part of Canada, Quebec isn't duping us into anything. They are constitutionally entitled to everything they get. Outside of Canada, not so much.

[Evening Star]

If it comes to it, I think Harper should take a page from Trudeau's book. If the BQ and PQ start to seriously promote separation and another referendum again, he should immediately tell them that if Quebec chooses to be out then they are ALL the way out! No sovereignty association, no shared currency, no OAS, no CPP, no EI, no nothing! Canada can of

What always amazes me about the Bloc is that they're an ostensibly 'separatist' party who seem heavily concerned with lobbying for more federal funding in Quebec, whether for arts programmes, education, or hockey arenas.

[fellowtraveller]

I admire Quebec for the way they have manipulated the country into giving them a disproportionate share of the gravy. They operate within the laws and rules set by others.

Now other provinces and regions are trying to emulate their success, can't blame them. It is the nature of our arrangement. Greed rules.

[scouterjim]

Ontarions, of course, never have to whine for anything; they get their way without having to complain.

-k

Now how can you possibly deny anything to the self proclaimed "God's gift to Canada"? Don't you realize that would invite divine retribution?

[guyser]

Now how can you possibly deny anything to the self proclaimed "God's gift to Canada"? Don't you realize that would invite divine retribution?

Now you're learning ! Daddy pays the bills , daddy gets .

[Benz]

I am as much amased by your narrow vision of your own country than you are regarding your understanding of "quebec separatism".

Equalization: Stop bullying to yourself. It is just one federal program among others. Québec doesn't get a single penny from the Nuclear subside, nor from the oil subside. Overall, Québec doesn't win much... that is if it wins. Even if it does, not as great as you imagine. As I said, the biggest winners of the equalization are the maritimes but in the overall, they are the biggest losers. It is worst than Quebec.

You can't wait so see what the "whiners of Québec" will do after seperation? So we are too.

An independent Quebec would be like the kid who whines and bitches at his parents until they get the highest level of cablevision. Then when he's finally out on his own, he's up on the roof trying to make the antenna bring in the porn stations. All those wonderful social programs they can't possibly do without now would be history in the event they ever got drunk enough to vote "yes" in a referendum.

I am glad you support the independance of Québec then. I can't wait to prove you are wrong.

----

No sovereignty association, no shared currency, no OAS, no CPP, no EI, no nothing! Canada can offer to have a good relationship with Quebec, just the same as we have with Britain, France or any other foreign country.

No problems! We will offer you an association but we won't insist if you reject it.

If Quebec feels they can use things like the St. Laurence Seaway as a lever, they should be shown that Canada can also play that game in other areas.

It's the other way around. Don't try the smart ass approach. The negociations better be fair or the game can get ugly for both.

Quebec should also be told that Canada will defend the rights of the aboriginal peoples living in Quebec.

Québec has always had more respect more respect for the aboriginals than you did. Forget about it. Plus, the integrity of our territory regards only Québec. If you want to trade pieces of land, you may try to offer something at best. You can forget about taking anything against our will. It would be bloody and ugly.

What the separatistes always seem to misunderstand is that if they choose to separate they will not be negotiating just with Ottawa. Whatever party is in power will be under intense pressure from the people in the rest of Canada, who will be angry and bitter at Quebec.

No. They will be angry and bitter at Ottawa. Because the Quebec's claims are legitimated and fair.

They will be in no mood for anything that looks like an unfair concession to Quebec's benefit.

You have no idea how much I don't care about your mood. You can stuck it up into your ---. Just as much as you don't care about Quebec's place in Canada.

A Liberal or a Tory government will be forced to be extremely hard-nosed with Quebec or they will certainly be hounded out of office by the remaining voters in TROC.

I bet the other way around. All the little snorting kids like you will be scoled by the silent majority.

As I said, Trudeau made these things plain before the first referendum and Duceppe and the PQ lady need a reminder that nothing has changed.

Trudeau is the number one reason why we want to seperate. He f--ked things up good. His works is our number one motivation to seperate.

The separatistes have always tried to make Quebecers believe that separation will be painless. It would be the duty of the federal government to make it plain that is simply not true.

It would ba as much pain for you that it would for us. The pain for both of us will depend on your stupidity. You live in a fictional world where Québec depends on Canada's generosity to survive. The pain will hit you hard when you will discover it is not true.

---

What always amazes me about the Bloc is that they're an ostensibly 'separatist' party who seem heavily concerned with lobbying for more federal funding in Quebec, whether for arts programmes, education, or hockey arenas.

That is because you are immuned to logic. Ottawa gets way too much money for what it needs to do. Instead of transfering the money or tax transfer so the provinces can collect more, Ottawa spends into domains that is not of its concern. The Bloc has to tell Ottawa where to spend the money, because the way the system is built, Québec can't get its share of the money and spend it where it belongs.

The other provinces are whining about the Ottawa's choices but they don't want to change the system. Québec and the Bloc are the only logical ones. The others are whining kids.

---

I admire Quebec for the way they have manipulated the country into giving them a disproportionate share of the gravy. They operate within the laws and rules set by others.

Now other provinces and regions are trying to emulate their success, can't blame them. It is the nature of our arrangement. Greed rules.

Then change the f--king rules. Only Québec is asking to reduce Ottawa's power to spend. If the role of Ottawa is reduced to what it really supposes to and it collects lesss money so the provinces can collect more, one would drag less money from its neighbor. If you think it's Quebec that do so, then Quebec would be limited to its own revenues and the ROC will keep more for itself.

How ironic that Québec is the only one asking for it? Or perhaps you should stop swallowing lies and wake up? It should ring you a bell that there is somthing wrong in what you hear and read in the english medias. You all act like brain dead zombies. Unable to question the flaw in your logic and considere another option of what you've been told.

Edited April 20, 2011 by Benz

[Shwa]

You all act like brain dead zombies. Unable to question the flaw in your logic and considere another option of what you've been told.

Here let me "question the flaw in your logic."

Quebec doesn't actually own any land except for a few farmed out seigneuries on the St. Lawrence. The rest is all treatied lands and the Natives aren't interested in dealing with a mere province.

So if there is zombie-like behaviour, guess what? It's the separatistes walking around yelling, Brains! BRAINS! BRAINS!! (cause they are deficient in that area of the skull)

[Wild Bill]

Québec has always had more respect more respect for the aboriginals than you did. Forget about it. Plus, the integrity of our territory regards only Québec. If you want to trade pieces of land, you may try to offer something at best. You can forget about taking anything against our will. It would be bloody and ugly.

You don't have to convince me. You have to convince all those aboriginals!

What will Quebec do if the native peoples in your province don't want to leave Canada? What if they refuse to abide by any move by the Quebec provincial government?

TROC isn't likely to send troops in but the native folks well might take up arms! We all remember how much appreciation for Quebec's respect was shown by Lasagna at Oka.

No, that will be Quebec's problem, at least at first. If it leads to bloodshed, I'm not sure what Canada would do. We do have treaty obligations...

Oh well, I'm sure you're quite right! The natives will be overjoyed to stay with a separate Quebec and it will be all sweetness and light!

You and I can argue tlll the cows come home. It will have to happen before we'd know who's right.