Save the Cities

[RNG]

I don't know how many of you are aware that a small town in the US SE was is such bad financial shape that it has totally defaulted on all pension payments and benefits. And many cities and several states are almost there.

Take the time to watch this video. Very interesting indeed.

Implementation anywhere where there is an existing system would require at least some sort of grandfathering mechanism, but I love it.

(Can one imbed a video on this forum, and if so, how?)

Edited April 15, 2011 by RNG

[TimG]

I don't know how many of you are aware that a small town in the US SE was is such bad financial shape that it has totally defaulted on all pension payments and benefits. And many cities and several states are almost there.

The result of making rediculous pension promises to public sector workers.

[bush_cheney2004]

(Can one imbed a video on this forum, and if so, how?)

Sure....just click the "insert media" icon on the full editor toolbar:

[Scotty]

The result of making rediculous pension promises to public sector workers.

You mean making pension agreements and then, due to incompetence and political cowardice not making any payments into pension funds?

[punked]

This is what happens when you make tax cuts you can't pay for and than steal those tax cuts out of public pension funds. At some point people retire and want their money back and you can't very well say "Sorry we gave it all away in tax cuts".

[RNG]

This is what happens when you make tax cuts you can't pay for and than steal those tax cuts out of public pension funds. At some point people retire and want their money back and you can't very well say "Sorry we gave it all away in tax cuts".

For how long in Canada was the pension fund just a number in a ledger? The CPP deductions were in fact just dumped into general revenue and pissed away. We now have an actual CPP pension fund and it is doing pretty well investing in the markets.

I'm not sure how the fed is on it's pension/benefit liability to our civil servants, but the US is sunk. All the talk and moaning about their debt and deficite is real but the numbers bandied about by the MSM don't include Social Security liabilities. But at least you can find those numbers for the US if you dig. I have never seen that type of data for Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

This is what happens when you make tax cuts you can't pay for and than steal those tax cuts out of public pension funds. At some point people retire and want their money back and you can't very well say "Sorry we gave it all away in tax cuts".

How do you pay for a tax cut? It's not the government's money to start with.

[bush_cheney2004]

...I'm not sure how the fed is on it's pension/benefit liability to our civil servants, but the US is sunk. All the talk and moaning about their debt and deficite is real but the numbers bandied about by the MSM don't include Social Security liabilities. But at least you can find those numbers for the US if you dig. I have never seen that type of data for Canada.

The US is hardly "sunk" because of Social Security, which contributes nothing to deficit problems. Benefits and taxes have been changed over the years, just as they will be in the future. Even if nothing is done, benefits can still be paid through 2032, and then at lower levels thereafter (75%).

And yea, just why is it that such data (of any kind) is so damn hard to find online for Canada. Why is it a such a big secret? Canada is not a backward place, so why can't equivalent stats be found, even if they are not aggregated to the federal level?

Edited April 15, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[punked]

How do you pay for a tax cut? It's not the government's money to start with.

Neither is a pension fund which you take money out of. It is the money of the workers who the government promises they are going to pay such an amount into it.

[RNG]

How do you pay for a tax cut? It's not the government's money to start with.

I actually dug through some dictionaries and still can't exactly nail it definitivly. Is a tax cut a subsidy? I think not. It's just taking less of what isn't the government's in the first place, IMHO. What say you?

[bush_cheney2004]

Neither is a pension fund which you take money out of. It is the money of the workers who the government promises they are going to pay such an amount into it.

Pensions are rarely fully funded by government or the private sector. The government can't give what it doesn't have, hence bankruptcy and pension defaults. Some pensions are insured...others are not.

[bush_cheney2004]

I actually dug through some dictionaries and still can't exactly nail it definitivly. Is a tax cut a subsidy? I think not. It's just taking less of what isn't the government's in the first place, IMHO. What say you?

Agreed....the very term "tax cut" is a misnomer. The government is just taking less of what was never theirs to begin with.

[RNG]

But has anyone watched the video? Comments.

[Battletoads]

The result of making rediculous pension promises to public sector workers.

Really the result of Conservative's (of the American kind) fiscal incompetence.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Battletoads

[Smallc]

I have never seen that type of data for Canada.

Because it doesn't exist. CPP is fully funded, and OAS and GIS don't cost all that much.

[TimG]

Neither is a pension fund which you take money out of. It is the money of the workers who the government promises they are going to pay such an amount into it.

The fault rests largely with workers who thought they were getting a sweet deal yet never looked into how it would be financed. If they had looked they would have realized that future tax payers might not be so keen on paying their pensions and would have set up their own pension fund which did not depend on the government (much like Ontario Teachers). Edited April 15, 2011 by TimG

[punked]

Agreed....the very term "tax cut" is a misnomer. The government is just taking less of what was never theirs to begin with.

And not paying for what the people demand. So in taking less they are charging more in the hidden "Tax" of interest they borrow that money for. So by doing that they are actually taking more of what was not theirs it is just taking it from the people later on.

[punked]

The fault rests largely with workers who thought they were getting a sweet deal yet never looked into how it would be financed. If they had looked they would have realized that future tax payers might not be so keen on payer their pensions and would have set up their own pension fund like Ontario Teachers.

Nope because like it or not the State is going to pay that pension money because other wise they will default. It doesn't matter if you owe the money to China or 300,000 state workers you still owe it and when you don't pay you default. Sorry you don't just get to stiff workers and say "tough you should have paid more attention". Although dumb Republicans believe this.

[bush_cheney2004]

And not paying for what the people demand. So in taking less they are charging more in the hidden "Tax" of interest they borrow that money for. So by doing that they are actually taking more of what was not theirs it is just taking it from the people later on.

What? You are forgetting that "the people" are also "demanding" services that have to be funded with current revenue and reserves. However, you do not have a right to health care, pension, or other entitlements.

[punked]

What? You are forgetting that "the people" are also "demanding" services that have to be funded with current revenue and reserves. However, you do not have a right to health care, pension, or other entitlements.

Yah do if you have a contract.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... Sorry you don't just get to stiff workers and say "tough you should have paid more attention". Although dumb Republicans believe this.

Yes they can...what the hell do you think default and bankruptcy means? Lots of workers get "stiffed" if a company goes under and the pension fund goes short.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yah do if you have a contract.

THat's what GM workers thought too...they were wrong..just like you. Bankruptcy court favors secured creditors over pensioners.

[TimG]

when you don't pay you default.

And when you default the creditors will get pennies on the dollar. As I said, they only have themselves to blame because they thought they could ride the tax payer gravy train forever.

[TimG]

THat's what GM workers thought too...they were wrong..just like you. Bankruptcy court favors secured creditors over pensioners.

Which why Obama ignored bankruptcy laws when he bailed out GM and Chrysler and stiffed teh secured creditors. They tries to argue a contract is a contract too... Edited April 15, 2011 by TimG

[BubberMiley]

Agreed....the very term "tax cut" is a misnomer. The government is just taking less of what was never theirs to begin with.

Then why does it have the queen on it if it isn't theirs?