Smallc Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 While I agree, none of that boils down to a zero sum question... Yes, it does when it comes to the G8/G20, and it probably does when it comes to fighter jets. Quote
GWiz Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 Yes, it does when it comes to the G8/G20, and it probably does when it comes to fighter jets. How so? Nowhere do I see no fighter jets or anything to do with the G8/G20 anywhere in Liberal policies... Maybe the NDP's, but I wouldn't know about that... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Jack Weber Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 Yes, it does when it comes to the G8/G20, and it probably does when it comes to fighter jets. The costs around the the G8/G20 are extremely debateable... Are you saying that unless we take the non-compete bid Mr. Harper wants to do on faith,without seeing the actual numbers(which,by the way,goes to his contempt of parliament)that our airforce would be put in jeopardy? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
GWiz Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 The costs around the the G8/G20 are extremely debateable... Are you saying that unless we take the non-compete bid Mr. Harper wants to do on faith,without seeing the actual numbers(which,by the way,goes to his contempt of parliament)that our airforce would be put in jeopardy? Exactly! Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Smallc Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 The costs around the the G8/G20 are extremely debateable... I don't think it is at all. It wasn't the government that made the spending decisions, it was the RCMP. The same RCMP would have made the decisions under the Liberals. Are you saying that unless we take the non-compete bid Mr. Harper wants to do on faith,without seeing the actual numbers(which,by the way,goes to his contempt of parliament)that our airforce would be put in jeopardy? I'm saying the plane needs to be replaced in 10 years. I personally don't want the F-35, but if we go with something else, we have to get more, meaning the cost won't change much if at all. Quote
Smallc Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 How so? Nowhere do I see no fighter jets or anything to do with the G8/G20 anywhere in Liberal policies... Maybe the NDP's, but I wouldn't know about that... If you think that the party that created the G20 is going to pull us out....and if the Liberals don't replace the fighters....they're insane. Quote
GWiz Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 If you think that the party that created the G20 is going to pull us out....and if the Liberals don't replace the fighters....they're insane. Are you trying to argue against yourself? What I said was that no one, especially not the Liberals, are pulling out of the G8/G20... I also said that the Liberals WILL replace the aging CF-18s once in power, why wouldn't they? BUT they're going to do it in a way that's most beneficial to Canadians and with the most cost effective plane they can find... Which in my view is the CURRENT 4.75 Generation F-18e/f Super Hornet which the US Navy and Australia have purchased because of the delays and cost overruns associated with the F-35... By buying the NEW and greatly improved version of the CF-18 Canada already uses the tremendous savings and maintenance benefits should be very obvious to anyone... Cost would be less than $5 BILLION all in for 100+ airframes and any and everything needed to get them to places like Afghanistan to support our troops anywhere in the world... Something BOTH the current CF-18s and the proposed F-35 wouldn't and weren't able to do... Not to mention we're talking about a COMBAT PROVEN airframe vs an airframe still years away from being fully "mission ready" tested and into full production... A plane Canada wouldn't see the first of until around 2020 at the earliest... Too late for the oldest of our CF-18s to be replaced... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 ....By buying the NEW and greatly improved version of the CF-18 Canada already uses the tremendous savings and maintenance benefits should be very obvious to anyone... Why do you keep repeating this inaccuracy? The F/A-18 E/F/G are not an improved version of a CF-18. It's a different aircraft derived from the the F/A-18 C/D, something Canada never purchased. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
cybercoma Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 So you don't think we need the capability to protect our own airspace? You don't think that we need to be part of the G8/G20? You think that any of the other parties would or should change that? You would be wrong on all accounts. Isolationism gets you nowhere. No other country hosting G20 has spent $1,000,000,000 in taxpayers' money to fund the "festivities". Your statement about the fighter jets is also a false dichotomy. Just because I don't think we need to spend billions of dollars on jets, doesn't mean I don't think we need to protect our airspace. Especially considering these are stealth fighters. Are we going to fly under our own radar to protect our airspace? And has any foreign power ever at any time even come close to invading our airspace where we had to rally jets? Quote
charter.rights Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 We have fighter jets. We have submarines and tanks. Albeit they are aging, we can still defend our borders. So THAT argument is a moot one. The problem isn't the purchase of new jets. It is the purchase of anything that does not comply with Canada's procurement laws, which requires tenders to be called. Who knows, maybe the Russian MIGs could have put in a better price.... Quote “Safeguarding the rights of others is the most noble and beautiful end of a human being.” Kahlil Gibran “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” Albert Einstein
charter.rights Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 Oh ya... And a $billion for a 2 day party was not warranted. It is just one example of the Conservatives wasteful spending and self-serving financial strategy. They are to financial management what Bernie Madoc was to maintaining the economy. Quote “Safeguarding the rights of others is the most noble and beautiful end of a human being.” Kahlil Gibran “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” Albert Einstein
YEGmann Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 By buying the NEW and greatly improved version of the CF-18 The design of F-18E/F is almost 20-year old. Canada already uses the tremendous savings and maintenance benefits should be very obvious to anyone... Cost would be less than $5 BILLION all in for 100+ airframes and any and everything needed to get them to places like Afghanistan to support our troops anywhere in the world... Complete BS! Read this http://www.finance.hq.navy.mil/FMB/12pres/APN_BA1-4_BOOK.pdf F/A-18E/F Procurement cost 2011 Q-ty = 22 $1,828,354.000 (in thousands) = $83 mln a piece 2012 Q-ty = 28 $2,508,881.000 (in thousands) = $89.6 mln a piece Plus 30-year maintenance. The same order as F-35. Quote
Smallc Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 No other country hosting G20 has spent $1,000,000,000 in taxpayers' money to fund the "festivities". Yes they have. They simply account for it differently. Every police hour that was spent even planning the event was accounted for here. All equipment bought was accounted for. If you think that they actually spent $18M to host the conference in the heart of London.... Your statement about the fighter jets is also a false dichotomy. Just because I don't think we need to spend billions of dollars on jets, doesn't mean I don't think we need to protect our airspace. Especially considering these are stealth fighters. Are we going to fly under our own radar to protect our airspace? And has any foreign power ever at any time even come close to invading our airspace where we had to rally jets? If you think that buying any other jet will cost us much if any less, you're delusional. The Eurofighter Typhoon and F/A-18E/F are not all that much less. Quote
Smallc Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 Complete BS! Read this http://www.finance.hq.navy.mil/FMB/12pres/APN_BA1-4_BOOK.pdf F/A-18E/F Procurement cost 2011 Q-ty = 22 $1,828,354.000 (in thousands) = $83 mln a piece 2012 Q-ty = 28 $2,508,881.000 (in thousands) = $89.6 mln a piece Plus 30-year maintenance. The same order as F-35. Exactly. There's no such thing as a low cost fighter, and almost no one denies that we need it. Quote
TTM Posted April 8, 2011 Author Report Posted April 8, 2011 This thread suddenly has all sorts of speculation about the costs of alternate fighters compared to the F-35. But thats all it is...speculation. Unless an actual tender process is carried out we will never know how the costs compare. And what other reason is there for not following that process? And at least with the alternate fighters, we have some idea of what they are actually capable of and when they could actually be delivered. We still don't have our choppers. As for the G8/G20, I believe we volunteered for at least one or both of those galas. And it was not the choice of the RCMP to hold one in downtown Toronto. Quote
Smallc Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 This thread suddenly has all sorts of speculation about the costs of alternate fighters compared to the F-35. But thats all it is...speculation. Unless an actual tender process is carried out we will never know how the costs compare. I'm sorry, but that's incorrect. The biggest unknown is actually the cost of the F-35. The other fighters have values that are easy to locate. Quote
GWiz Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 The design of F-18E/F is almost 20-year old. Read this ***Sigh*** Here we go again... For the umpteenth TIME... F/A-18E/F "Super Hornet" - On September 28, 2010, Boeing C announced it had been awarded a new multi-year procurement contract valued at $5.297 billion from the U.S. Navy for 124 F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler aircraft. Under the terms of the agreement, Boeing is to deliver 66 Super Hornets and ***58 Growlers to the Navy from 2012 through 2015. - NOTE: ***EA-18G Growlers are Airborne Electronic Attack Aircraft - Production cost on a unit flyaway basis will be 15-18% more than a basic F/A-18F in then-year dollars. An EA-18 will cost $7-9 million more, based on the nominal Super Hornet unit price of $50 million by the end of the current multi-year procurement contract. - - Although 41% interdiction mission range increase may be the most notable F/A-18E/F improvement, the ability to recover aboard with optimal reserve fuel and a load of precision strike weapons, is of equal importance to the battle group commander. The growth potential of the F/A-18E/F is more important to allow flexible employment strategies in future years. If an electronically scanned array antenna or another installation-sensitive sensor or weapon system becomes available, the F/A-18E/F has the space, power and cooling to accommodate it. Although the more recent F/A-18C/D aircraft have incorporated a modicum of low observables technology, the F/A-18E/F was designed from the outset to optimize this and other survivability enhancements. The all-F/A-18C/D/E/F air wing brings an increase in capability to the carrier battle group while ensuring the potential to take advantage of technological advances for years to come. - Under $5 BILLION US will get Canada EVERYTHING it needs in fighter/strike aircraft, with EVERYTHING to get it where it needs to be, AND much, much better "maintenance and support" contracts than the F-35, and THAT isn't made up, it's a FACT... It's also what I'd like to see and NOT necessarily what a Liberal Government would do, since I'm NOT a spokesperson for any political party... Having said that, with an OPEN COMPETITION, the F-18e/f has a whole lot going for it, which ANY Government worth it's salt should be able to seriously take into consideration... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 ....Under $5 BILLION US will get Canada EVERYTHING it needs in fighter/strike aircraft, with EVERYTHING to get it where it needs to be, AND much, much better "maintenance and support" contracts than the F-35, and THAT isn't made up, it's a FACT... What is this number based on? How many aircraft, depot level maintenance, spares, etc. Why would it be easier to deploy to Afghanistan compared to CF-18's, which was a war too far? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GWiz Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 What is this number based on? How many aircraft, depot level maintenance, spares, etc. Why would it be easier to deploy to Afghanistan compared to CF-18's, which was a war too far? 100 F-18e/fs + refuelers for long distance flights + almost 50% greater range than the CF-18a we now fly... Heck, we could even "string" some short northern runways and keep "hooks" on some of them, that way we could get you guys to "carry" them over for us... As to cost, my friends at Boeing told me so... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 100 F-18e/fs + refuelers for long distance flights + almost 50% greater range than the CF-18a we now fly... Heck, we could even "string" some short northern runways and keep "hooks" on some of them, that way we could get you guys to "carry" them over for us... As to cost, my friends at Boeing told me so... Not for $5 billion you ain't...dream on. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GWiz Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 Not for $5 billion you ain't...dream on. Have you lied to me before? Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 Have you lied to me before? Nope...you want to buy more Yankee hardware...you're gonna pay for it. Try the rest, then buy the best. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GWiz Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 Nope...you want to buy more Yankee hardware...you're gonna pay for it. Try the rest, then buy the best. Free market economy means COMPETITION... Getting the sale wins... I like Boeing's chances... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bush_cheney2004 Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 Free market economy means COMPETITION... Getting the sale wins... I like Boeing's chances... I have my doubts....Canada always manages to screw something like this up, only to pay huge cancellation fees! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GWiz Posted April 8, 2011 Report Posted April 8, 2011 I have my doubts....Canada always manages to screw something like this up, only to pay huge cancellation fees! Sounds like a change in tune to me... No "cancelation fees" YET... There's a first TIME for everything... This TIME could be it... Too bad I'm not in a position to call that shot tho, anything could happen... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
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