The Problem with Elections

[WWWTT]

:D :D

Nothing brings the fear of god to a left idealist than the realization of bond vigilantes!

Oh sorry man,I understand now,you are talking about something that nobody cares about because it is completely irrelevant!

If it was relevant then maybe this subject would make the headlines and be in political debates such as job creation or health care or the downloading onto municipalities increasing property taxes and development fees.

But I can see you do not have a reply for any real issues you are hopeless at.

Now run along buddy your wasting space.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Oh ya and by the way take your freakin early 70's smiley faces with you.

WWWTT

[blueblood]

Oh sorry man,I understand now,you are talking about something that nobody cares about because it is completely irrelevant!

If it was relevant then maybe this subject would make the headlines and be in political debates such as job creation or health care or the downloading onto municipalities increasing property taxes and development fees.

But I can see you do not have a reply for any real issues you are hopeless at.

Now run along buddy your wasting space.

WWWTT

If you get to glorify bob rae's policy, I get to glorify reality. Politicians throughout the 70s to the mid nineties throughout canada thought they could get away with massive deficits, the bond vigilantes said otherwise. The chretien govt, clinton administration, among others discovered this reality the hard way!

Just for you ---> :D

[ToadBrother]

That's not the issue, the issue is the stacked committee. The committee would have more credibility had there been independents on there.

No, that's exactly the issue. I'm asking you again, did the Government attempt to withhold documents from Parliament?

[blueblood]

No, that's exactly the issue. I'm asking you again, did the Government attempt to withhold documents from Parliament?

Since I'm not a party member, whether harper hides documents or not is his problem not mine. I'm not talking about hiding documents. if I can quote alta, he said the liberals were funny with the gun registry among others. As much as you care about this issue, its not what I'm talking about. Ill ask you again was the committee stacked or was it not? Ill ask you again why was sponsorship such an issue whereas inserting a word not much of an iSsue?

It doesn't matter if harper alledgedly took a million dollars and bought a yacht, my point is that if the committee prosecuting him or his party is full of partisan hacks (literally), don't you think there is a credibility issue? You can cite new westminster protocol all you want, but if you think committee members who belong to parties using any means to remove the cpc from govt are magically unbiased and fair, you aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

[Scotty]

No, that's exactly the issue. I'm asking you again, did the Government attempt to withhold documents from Parliament?

Yeah, but it doesn't look like a lot of people really care. They don't see it as Harper vs Parliament, but as Harper vs Ignatieff/Layton/Duceppe.

I think Harper was dumb to not come across with the documents, but on the other hand it doesn't exactly have me all weepy with concern.

[TimG]

No, that's exactly the issue. I'm asking you again, did the Government attempt to withhold documents from Parliament?

It really does not make a difference how much you protest the fact is people do not make any distinction between 'parliament' and 'opposition parties fishing for dirt'. Those that do make the distinction understand that 'parliament' only had the option of asking for the materials because it was a minority and all prior governments engaged in the same secrecy so it is rather silly to claim that Harper is acting differently.

[Wild Bill]

No actually I don't remember.

I remember the 407 getting the green light which opened up the door for municipalities to allow land to be developed which helped the construction industry.

I remember Sunday shopping to finally be approved of which helped the retail industry combat "Buffalo shopping"

I remember a deal being reached with municipal workers province wide to come up with tax savings and no lay-offs.

Actually I remember his provincial parliament being one of the most creative and advanced thinking this province or any other Canadian province has seen.

Where is Mike Harris or Brian Mullroney now that there isn't anyone convenient to use as a scapegoat?Oh ya I forgot Earnie Eaves too.

I know where Bob is,he's not hiding!

WWWTT

I don't think that Bob had been in office a week when he cancelled the Red Hlll Creek Expressway project, that had taken 30 years to get approval, due to delaying tactics by the tiny but powerful group of treehuggers.

The contracts had all been let and the bulldozers had already started up. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in costs for breaking contracts had to be paid. The total amount has never been released to this day.

Bob and his people also hired thousands of casual workers into government jobs like the Dept of Highways, where they were put on make-work projects until they accumulated enough paid weeks to qualify for EI. They even had those guys pouring concrete in January, when the cold would prevent the concrete from setting properly! It all had to be replaced in the spring!

He added over $10 billion to the Ontario deficit, believing that somehow he could just buy his way out of a recession! This was an old, simplistic, socialistic idea that of course, didn't work! All we had to show for it when we finally dumped the dork was an extra $10 billion in debt!

Unless you live in Ontario you just can't imagine how bad a name Bob Rae has and the federal NDP. A lot of people will have to grow old and die before the NDP has a chance here again. He is hated more than Harris and more than Brian Mulroney. You would have an easier time getting a Liberal elected in Calgary than Bob Rae getting widespread support in Ontario. The idea of Bob becoming Liberal leader and taking the party into a national election is Harper's biggest wet dream!

This is NOT just my opinion! All you have to do is go into any representative sample of coffee shops, anywhere in Ontario, and start asking people at random for their opinion. Guaranteed you will provoke an earful and almost all of it negative! If you wanted poll results that favoured Rae you would have to restrict your poll to people 20 years old or less, so that there was no possibility that they were around during the Rae times!

That's just the way it is. The sun rises in the east. Water flows downhiil. Ontarioans old enough to remember despise Bob Rae.

[WWWTT]

Red Hill creek expressway?Didn't the natives make a claim that it crossed certain areas that they had made claims too?And then the local police or OPP infiltrated their bands to get dirt on them?

Anyways,very good you have an opinion and you won't be voting liberal or NDP any time soon.

Nor will they spend a freakin red cent to try to win you over.As far as predicting their political future I am not too sure how well you will do there but good luck!

WWWTT

[jbg]

Anyways,very good you have an opinion and you won't be voting liberal or NDP any time soon.

I won't vote Liberal or NDP any time soon either.

[GWiz]

Me on the other hand understands the difference between the twisting snake-pit of self promoting weasels in parliament and Canada as a whole.

Well my friend it's very simple to not have "weasels" in Parliament, and if you consider Canada's Parliament a "snake-pit" you haven't any understanding of what a snake-pit is...

The simple solution is don't elect snakes and weasels to Parliament...

IMHO Parliament is but a reflection of Canada as a whole, that's why it is called a Democracy, every person in Parliament is elected by the Canadian public...

If you prefer another system, feel free to live in one, there are many available to you...

Speaking of "snakes and weasels", it's as I said, "to hold the Harper Regime in Contempt of Parliament is in fact saying that the Harper Regime has contempt for Canadians...

Now if the "media" had portrayed that fact I think it may make the Harper Regime downfall the main story and a little more interesting to most Canadians..."

[ToadBrother]

Since I'm not a party member, whether harper hides documents or not is his problem not mine. I'm not talking about hiding documents. if I can quote alta, he said the liberals were funny with the gun registry among others. As much as you care about this issue, its not what I'm talking about. Ill ask you again was the committee stacked or was it not? Ill ask you again why was sponsorship such an issue whereas inserting a word not much of an iSsue?

It doesn't matter if harper alledgedly took a million dollars and bought a yacht, my point is that if the committee prosecuting him or his party is full of partisan hacks (literally), don't you think there is a credibility issue? You can cite new westminster protocol all you want, but if you think committee members who belong to parties using any means to remove the cpc from govt are magically unbiased and fair, you aren't seeing the forest for the trees.

The BNA Act gives the power of enforcing Parliamentary privilege to Parliament itself. That means there will always be a partisan body in charge.

But I'm going to ask you again, did the Tory Government have the right to withhold documents from Parliament? Why can't you answer the question?

[GWiz]

Ill ask you again was the committee stacked or was it not? Ill ask you again why was sponsorship such an issue whereas inserting a word not much of an iSsue?

My answer to you is that you do not have much of an understanding of the whole process, of which the committee is only one part, of what it takes to be found in Contempt of Parliament (aka Contempt of Canadians)...

[ToadBrother]

My answer to you is that you do not have much of an understanding of the whole process, of which the committee is only one part, of what it takes to be found in Contempt of Parliament (aka Contempt of Canadians)...

I'm getting a little tired of this "contempt of Parliament" = "contempt of Canadians". The former is a constitutional procedure over three hundred years old. The latter is, well, a subjective political statement.

[GWiz]

I'm getting a little tired of this "contempt of Parliament" = "contempt of Canadians". The former is a constitutional procedure over three hundred years old. The latter is, well, a subjective political statement.

No, the Canadian Parliament is the sole freely elected voice of Canadians in a Parliamentary Democracy

The only other "check" to prevent a roque Government in Canada is the Governor General as the Queens representative...

The Canadian Parliament is thus the "voice of the people" and held as "supreme" in the Canadian Parliamentary system...

"Contempt of Parliament" is indeed Contempt of Canadians, which is why it's never happened before anywhere with a British based Parliamentary System...

Inspite of many, many scandals, and the like in all those Parliaments no Political Party has ever before questioned the rights of Parliament like the Harper Regime did...

[WWWTT]

I won't vote Liberal or NDP any time soon either.

Your a good boy jbg

Tell you what I'll buy you an ice cream,you like vanilla or chocolate?

WWWTT

[blueblood]

The BNA Act gives the power of enforcing Parliamentary privilege to Parliament itself. That means there will always be a partisan body in charge.

But I'm going to ask you again, did the Tory Government have the right to withhold documents from Parliament? Why can't you answer the question?

To answer your question, legally no. However when the parliamentary system was set up I don't think there was the idea of giant political parties floating around, it seems that it was initially for independents. That said, I don't blame harper for keeping mum about the documents because of the toxic nature of the current parliament we have and the sensitive nature of some of the documents. According to poll numbers a lot of canadians are giving harper a pass on this as well. I still don't understand why this is relevant to my point. My point is that there is a stacked committee hiding behind parliamentary rules for political gain. Had there been only independents on the committee, then I would agree with you 100%. I don't know what's worse the hiding of the documents or having a kangaroo court of a committee overseeing it. In all fairness that goes for the tory committee members blindingly siding with the govt.

We can sit here and bicker about parliamentary procedure all you want, at the end of the day, its about optics. Ill ask you again, was the committee stacked? The actions of the committee provide proof of the coalition's motives and tactics. How are they going to look canadians in the eye and dismiss the coalition when in fact they banded together using every legal trick in the book to oust the govt and expect canadians to believe them. The opposition can cry foul all they want, all harper has to say is "look who's trying me". Its that simple point that you are refusing to acknowledge.

[WWWTT]

No, the Canadian Parliament is the sole freely elected voice of Canadians in a Parliamentary Democracy

The only other "check" to prevent a roque Government in Canada is the Governor General as the Queens representative...

The Canadian Parliament is thus the "voice of the people" and held as "supreme" in the Canadian Parliamentary system...

"Contempt of Parliament" is indeed Contempt of Canadians, which is why it's never happened before anywhere with a British based Parliamentary System...

Inspite of many, many scandals, and the like in all those Parliaments no Political Party has ever before questioned the rights of Parliament like the Harper Regime did...

Actually I believe the courts,including a couple of different levels can overturn parliamentary laws and force their hands into making new laws that are more constitutional.

A good example is when the courts found gay marriage to be a constitutional issue.

Another is marijuana possesion,drinking and driving related laws among several others.

This issue is much more involved and I can't be bothered to dig up links to provide(so don't ask me and get off your butt and check yourself).

However our legal system is in my opinion intentionally kept expensive to supress the rights of Canadians.Sure we have all kinds of rights,for those who can afford to retain a lawyer at their disposal.

WWWTT

[ToadBrother]

To answer your question, legally no. However when the parliamentary system was set up I don't think there was the idea of giant political parties floating around, it seems that it was initially for independents.

There weren't formalized political parties, no, but there were certainly factions.

That said, I don't blame harper for keeping mum about the documents because of the toxic nature of the current parliament we have and the sensitive nature of some of the documents. According to poll numbers a lot of canadians are giving harper a pass on this as well.

Our system discarded the notion that the executive has any right to deprive Parliament of any information when Charles I lost his head. I do blame him, because he has no right. He may think it's a good idea, but he overreached. That is a breach of privilege on the face of it.

I still don't understand why this is relevant to my point. My point is that there is a stacked committee hiding behind parliamentary rules for political gain. Had there been only independents on the committee, then I would agree with you 100%. I don't know what's worse the hiding of the documents or having a kangaroo court of a committee overseeing it. In all fairness that goes for the tory committee members blindingly siding with the govt.

At the end of the day, the Government refused to release documents. That is a breach of Privilege. The committee may have been dominated by Opposition members, but then again, so is Parliament. Parliament has the absolute right to extend as much or as little courtesy to the Government as it pleases.

We can sit here and bicker about parliamentary procedure all you want, at the end of the day, its about optics. Ill ask you again, was the committee stacked? The actions of the committee provide proof of the coalition's motives and tactics. How are they going to look canadians in the eye and dismiss the coalition when in fact they banded together using every legal trick in the book to oust the govt and expect canadians to believe them. The opposition can cry foul all they want, all harper has to say is "look who's trying me". Its that simple point that you are refusing to acknowledge.

The Committee wasn't stacked. The Opposition outnumbers the government, and the Committee reflects that. So no, you're wrong.

[GWiz]

Actually I believe the courts,including a couple of different levels can overturn parliamentary laws and force their hands into making new laws that are more constitutional.

CANADIAN CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS

No need to thank me, you're welcome...

[Michael Hardner]

I'm watching Jack Layton right now and he is discussing things like health care,HST,job creation and families.

Ya Maybe I will start a thread about these issues!

Thank You

WWWTTT

Thanks. Waiting for this, as the thread continues to drift.

[blueblood]

There weren't formalized political parties, no, but there were certainly factions.

Our system discarded the notion that the executive has any right to deprive Parliament of any information when Charles I lost his head. I do blame him, because he has no right. He may think it's a good idea, but he overreached. That is a breach of privilege on the face of it.

At the end of the day, the Government refused to release documents. That is a breach of Privilege. The committee may have been dominated by Opposition members, but then again, so is Parliament. Parliament has the absolute right to extend as much or as little courtesy to the Government as it pleases.

The Committee wasn't stacked. The Opposition outnumbers the government, and the Committee reflects that. So no, you're wrong.

Opposition outnumbering the govt on the committee, that's stacked in my books.

My point isn't about parliamentary tradition or royal pomp or all that jazz. Its about harper performing in the court of public opinion (election). According to the court of public opinion harper is getting a pass on this and can say to the public "well jeez look at this stacked committee trying the party"

At the end of the day public opinion trumps parliamentary tradition, the failure of the 2008 coalition is proof of that. There is a world outside of the house of commons. Your just not seeing the forest for the trees.

[ToadBrother]

Opposition outnumbering the govt on the committee, that's stacked in my books.

Then you must feel Parliament in general is stacked. The committee was a reasonable representation of the current Parliament.

My point isn't about parliamentary tradition or royal pomp or all that jazz. Its about harper performing in the court of public opinion (election). According to the court of public opinion harper is getting a pass on this and can say to the public "well jeez look at this stacked committee trying the party"

I have no idea whether the public is giving a pass or not, and neither do you.

At the end of the day public opinion trumps parliamentary tradition, the failure of the 2008 coalition is proof of that. There is a world outside of the house of commons. Your just not seeing the forest for the trees.

The contempt finding is still on the books. And you still didn't answer the question. Do you think a Government should have the right to withhold documents from Parliament, whether the public cares or otherwise?

Edited March 28, 2011 by ToadBrother

[blueblood]

Then you must feel Parliament in general is stacked. The committee was a reasonable representation of the current Parliament.

I have no idea whether the public is giving a pass or not, and neither do you.

The contempt finding is still on the books. And you still didn't answer the question. Do you think a Government should have the right to withhold documents from Parliament, whether the public cares or otherwise?

Do you really think the cpc was going to get a fair committee ruling with a majority of the committee being from other parties? C'mon man! And since harpers poll numbers held up during that brew ha ha, I'd say the public is giving him a pass.

I answered your question, legally no. However due to the circumstances I give him a pass on it. In other words, the govt can try, but parliament can find out and then air it out in public. If parliament wants to stack the committee, then they have to wear the kangaroo court label just as the govt wears the crooked bastard label.

[ToadBrother]

Do you really think the cpc was going to get a fair committee ruling with a majority of the committee being from other parties?

A majority of Parliamentarians found the Government in contempt. Even you admit that the Government breached privilege.

C'mon man! And since harpers poll numbers held up during that brew ha ha, I'd say the public is giving him a pass.

So you think constitutionality and legality are matters for polls?

I answered your question, legally no. However due to the circumstances I give him a pass on it. In other words, the govt can try, but parliament can find out and then air it out in public. If parliament wants to stack the committee, then they have to wear the kangaroo court label just as the govt wears the crooked bastard label.

Why would you give a pass on a violation of a constitutional precept? I'm curious. Are you really suggesting that governments be above Parliament?

Are you aware of why the notion of Parliamentary privilege exists?

Edited March 28, 2011 by ToadBrother