Will Ignatieff maintain his promise to go "home" to the US

[Evening Star]

Legally he can of course but many Canadians would use it as a reason why he shouldn't.

I'm just not convinced that his having worked in the US is the reason, as opposed to the seemingly deluded level of identification with the US (and Bush/Cheney foreign policy) that he seems to hold. As far as I can tell, the public mostly just finds him arrogant and awkward. Besides, he generally hasn't really seemed to advance a very compelling alternative to the CPC in terms of policy. (His recent embrace of quasi-NDP economic policy seems a bit out of the blue.)

[nicky10013]

Nothing wrong with questioning relationships but defining yourself by what you are not, is not healthy. We do it all the time. Just try and suggest any reforms to our health care system and the first thing that happens is people crawling out of the woodwork claiming we are trying to Americanize it. We don't do that with other countries. Fact is, our attitude (complex) toward the US stifles a lot of badly needed debate about ourselves.

I disagree. We don't want American style health care because it doesn't work, not because we're defining ourselves as not American. I think the Canadian healthcare system needs serious reform but we need to look at other systems that are looking better. Now, in terms of politicians suggesting reform, the only thing I've heard out of the CPC side has been two tiered US style health care.

Not to turn this into a thread on healthcare, but there's a reason why people railed against it in the past.

[Wilber]

I'm just not convinced that his having worked in the US is the reason, as opposed to the seemingly deluded level of identification with the US (and Bush/Cheney foreign policy) that he seems to hold. As far as I can tell, the public mostly just finds him arrogant and awkward. Besides, he generally hasn't really seemed to advance a very compelling alternative to the CPC in terms of policy. (His recent embrace of quasi-NDP economic policy seems a bit out of the blue.)

We actually agree on this. My issue is the tactics being used.

[bush_cheney2004]

I disagree. We don't want American style health care because it doesn't work, not because we're defining ourselves as not American....

...except when it does, for Canadians like PM Chretien, Belinda Stronach, and MP Williams!

[Wilber]

I disagree. We don't want American style health care because it doesn't work, not because we're defining ourselves as not American. I think the Canadian healthcare system needs serious reform but we need to look at other systems that are looking better. Now, in terms of politicians suggesting reform, the only thing I've heard out of the CPC side has been two tiered US style health care.

Not to turn this into a thread on healthcare, but there's a reason why people railed against it in the past.

I'm not advocating the US system but just try and advocate reform. First thing that happens is people crying you are trying to Americanize it. You are doing it yourself, ignoring the fact that almost every other country with a public system also as some degree of parallel private care.

I wasn't trying to turn this into a health care discussion either, just pointing out that one of the easiest ways to stifle debate in this country is to insert the American bogyman into the discussion.

[bush_cheney2004]

...I wasn't trying to turn this into a health care discussion either, just pointing out that one of the easiest ways to stifle debate in this country is to insert the American bogyman into the discussion.

Very true.....BOO!

[Evening Star]

I'm not advocating the US system but just try and advocate reform. First thing that happens is people crying you are trying to Americanize it. You are doing it yourself, ignoring the fact that almost every other country with a public system also as some degree of parallel private care.

I wasn't trying to turn this into a health care discussion either, just pointing out that one of the easiest ways to stifle debate in this country is to insert the American bogyman into the discussion.

Ha, but that is only true of certain kinds of reforms: No one cries out "Americanization" when someone suggests e.g. nationalizing pharmacare or even bulk drug purchasing or simplfying the exporting of generic AIDS drugs! (I imagine that if someone suggested all-out UK-style socialized medicine, we wouldn't hear the cry either.)

And I think Nicky is right. When Canadians see American ideas that seem to work, people are happy to adopt them. No one seems too upset about e.g. the expansion of the US film industry into Vancouver or about Canadian musicians performing jazz or hip-hop or even about the adoption of some American ideas in education. (Privatization would probably not be popular, however.)

As to the main point, I've always liked this Idealistic Pragmatist post: http://idealisticpragmatist.blogspot.com/2006/05/us-as-unexamined-alternative.html

She argues that comparing ourselves primarily to the US (when there are other models to look at) can actually restrict progress.

[capricorn]

Interesting, I thought he did.

Actually, it would make more sense to me if his dual citizenship was with Russia. Due to his Russian lineage, he could use the title of "Count" if he so desired and it would be recognized, at least insofar as Russia is concerned. I'm not saying this is fact, just a thought.

[Evening Star]

We actually agree on this. My issue is the tactics being used.

OK, cool, I think we're actually on the same page here.

[Wilber]

And I think Nicky is right. When Canadians see American ideas that seem to work, people are happy to adopt them. No one seems too upset about e.g. the expansion of the US film industry into Vancouver or about Canadian musicians performing jazz or hip-hop or even about the adoption of some American ideas in education. (Privatization would probably not be popular, however.)

As to the main point, I've always liked this Idealistic Pragmatist post: http://idealisticpragmatist.blogspot.com/2006/05/us-as-unexamined-alternative.html

She argues that comparing ourselves primarily to the US (when there are other models to look at) can actually restrict progress.

The movie industry is business not social policy. It brings us money and jobs and requires little from us as a society, what's not to like. It's a free country, you can't tell musicians what kind of music they can play. There are plenty of Canadians who don't like jazz or hip-hop.

That is a great post. She is dead right IMO.

[Molly]

That's what makes his statements so odd.

Not so odd. Your nation demands, as a condition of citizenship, that all other citizenships be renounced. Now, most people just don't do it, considering it to be a MYOB issue, but honest ones do, and the declaration is part of the citizenship process.

Can you imagine the incredible uproar if he did have dual citizenship? It would be assumed to be a renouncement. He would not be elctable, could easily be ruled ineligible to runhj, could actually find himself holding neither citizenship!

[Evening Star]

It does still seem a little odd that he would identify as American, though, if he doesn't have citizenship (and didn't even grow up there for that matter), regardless of how strict the requirements are.

[Evening Star]

The movie industry is business not social policy. It brings us money and jobs and requires little from us as a society, what's not to like. It's a free country, you can't tell musicians what kind of music they can play.

All I'm saying is that I don't think there's a general anti-American bigotry (and resistance to American ideas because of their origin) as much as a distaste for specific policies. I think we actually agree on the main point though.

[bush_cheney2004]

All I'm saying is that I don't think there's a general anti-American bigotry (and resistance to American ideas because of their origin) as much as a distaste for specific policies. I think we actually agree on the main point though.

Others disagree...see this earlier thread:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=17474&view=&hl=can we talk&fromsearch=1

[Guest American Woman]

It does still seem a little odd that he would identify as American, though, if he doesn't have citizenship (and didn't even grow up there for that matter), regardless of how strict the requirements are.

It is indeed odd. And the renouncement requirements aren't as strict as they're being made out to be. The U.S. doesn't prevent a naturalized citizen from holding a passport from their old country. There is no formal renouncement required by law. I'm sure if he had become an American citizen he would have become unelectable in Canada, though.

[bush_cheney2004]

....I'm sure if he had become an American citizen he would have become unelectable in Canada, though.

Unquestionably....look at the grief Dion had over French citizenship by virtue of his mother.

[Guest American Woman]

Unquestionably....look at the grief Dion had over French citizenship by virtue of his mother.

Right. Dion didn't chose French citizenship, it was because of his birthright, so if Ignatieff had chosen American citizenship, his political days in Canada would most likely have been over. The idea that concern over citizenship is an 'American thing' is absurd. Still, his referral to himself as an American amounts to close to the same thing in my mind -- if I were a Canadian voter.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... The idea that concern over citizenship is an 'American thing' is absurd. Still, his referral to himself as an American amounts to close to the same thing in my mind -- if I were a Canadian voter.

Many Canadians want it both ways..."success" in the USA is even sanctioned by the curious framework of CanCon rules for media and communications. Far from being more sophisticated as "multicultural", it borders on a national neurosis, pun intended.

Look, I have no quibble with Ignatieff as a well traveled academic and acclaimed author. But in politics, he has the very same kind of liabilities that are exploited by his very own party on a routine basis.

[Shakeyhands]

Unquestionably....look at the grief Dion had over French citizenship by virtue of his mother.

The "grief" he got wasn't that significant, nor should it have been.

[bush_cheney2004]

The "grief" he got wasn't that significant, nor should it have been.

Maybe not to you, but it was definitely a big headache and distraction for Stephane Dion.

[Shakeyhands]

Maybe not to you, but it was definitely a big headache and distraction for Stephane Dion.

Perhaps to the mouth breathers on the right were in a tizzy ( Link ) but the rest of us who understand that:

1) there is nothing preventing a dual citizen to run for office here

2) it was more about faux outrage on the right

I took one news cycle to deal with.

[bush_cheney2004]

I took one news cycle to deal with.

..as did his party's defeat.

[g_bambino]

What the CPC are doing are Anti-American smears while at the same time are actually bringing us closer into the American orbit. Their idea of what our politics should be is certainly closer to the US model than the Canadian. It's hypocritical double speak to say the least.

True dat.

[g_bambino]

The "grief" he got wasn't that significant, nor should it have been.

It was for Michaelle Jean. And our own queen is often portrayed as a foreigner, either out of ignorance or deliberately. It's all so random, the targets and the intensity with which they're hit.

[Molly]

Molly, how many Hutterites were there compared to how many citizens who came from Britain, France, Germany, Poland or whatever?

I'm talking about the whole blueberry pie and you're talking about one blueberry!

Bill, this whole tangent is a digression, but really, LOOK! Just LOOK. :

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cansk/maps/ethnic-bloc.html

It doesn't matter how many Hutterites there were... but the straight up fact is that western Canada is simply not a British construct.