Molly Posted March 3, 2011 Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 It must just bug the fuck out of the libs ,when this is the only type of scandal they can find. And for the press to say it is no different then adscam, now that shows how desperate the libs and the lib media are getting. You notice the closer harper get to a majority the more pathetic the libs and thier media get. Oh by the way ,have they made this months payment on the 40 mil yet? It bugs the bejeezuz out of me to watch openly dishonest people routinely display contempt for our nation and its institutions and even greater contempt for the good sense and the honour of its citizens... and for their disgraceful conduct be rewarded with votes instead of tar and feathers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly Posted March 3, 2011 Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 You sound like you haven't worked on an election in the last 20 years. Seriously I don't mean this to be rude. No offense taken, nor any intended... and you are right, it has been a while. Not close to 20 years, but more than 10. I'm not dismissing my doubt in your take, though. It speaks unfortunate volumes that you assume quid pro quo- favors if not money. There actually is some idealism in the world- folks who do stuff because they think it's the right thing. Some of them even consider the chance have a close-up view of history and the chance to take part in it to be more than enough reward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted March 3, 2011 Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 It bugs the bejeezuz out of me to watch openly dishonest people routinely display contempt for our nation and its institutions and even greater contempt for the good sense and the honour of its citizens... and for their disgraceful conduct be rewarded with votes instead of tar and feathers. Clarify for me will you? Do you mean the Afghan debacle, the EC debacle , the Bev Oda snafu, the No Deficit guy...? Geez, its all so confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted March 3, 2011 Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 This is the biggest issue that no one cares about. Go ask the average Canadian if they know what this is about. They don't know or maybe they don't care. I guess a certain amount of corruption is tolerable by Canada. The Liberals never took the time to learn this ala AdScam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 This is the biggest issue that no one cares about. Go ask the average Canadian if they know what this is about. They don't know or maybe they don't care. I guess a certain amount of corruption is tolerable by Canada. The Liberals never took the time to learn this ala AdScam. We know your line. Tory dishonesty is just fine because you think no one is watching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Actually, as you will see, it's not debatable. Please provide proof that the Liberals and NDP took part in this sort of activity. Please. There are several links in this thread alone. This is not even remotely a controversial assertion, all parties financed their campaigns this way. It was standard procedure, fully disclosed, and Elections Canada never had an issue with it before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Ashley Posted March 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 (edited) get rid of the man and the party he is a total liar. "They were part of normal party financing, up to and including the 2006 election," Harper said, when asked about the transactions in question. Edited March 4, 2011 by William Ashley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeyhands Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Please. There are several links in this thread alone. This is not even remotely a controversial assertion, all parties financed their campaigns this way. It was standard procedure, fully disclosed, and Elections Canada never had an issue with it before. I must have missed the links and have looked back through the thread and still can't find them... help a brother out?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 No offense taken, nor any intended... and you are right, it has been a while. Not close to 20 years, but more than 10. I'm not dismissing my doubt in your take, though. It speaks unfortunate volumes that you assume quid pro quo- favors if not money. There actually is some idealism in the world- folks who do stuff because they think it's the right thing. Some of them even consider the chance have a close-up view of history and the chance to take part in it to be more than enough reward. Molly, it's been about 10 years since I've worked on a campaign but even with my first one I quickly learned that LIBERALS DO PAY MUCH OF THEIR HELP! In fact, one Liberal friend admitted to me after the first Reform campaign that the level of volunteerism within Reform scared the hell out of them! People in this thread are relating to their own experience with different parties. Those parties have always run much more on volunteerism, mainly because historically they weren't as rich as the liberals. Just because you worked for the NDP and saw every one volunteering out of dedication is no reason to assume that it was the same thing over in the Liberal camp! This is also one of the main reasons why the Liberals are having such troubles mounting effective campaigns today. They aren't nearly as rich! The rules were changed so that they can't count on big business and private patron donations and they still haven't learned how to raise money from the grass roots like the Tories. They are slowly getting in better shape but for generations people took it for granted that if you worked on a Liberal campaign, even as just a scrutineer, you got something for it. Now many Liberal riding teams just can't afford to do that. The Liberals really need a complete overhaul. They've done part of the job but they still have a ways to go. As I've said before, I'm beginning to resent that they are not offering me an alternative to the very BORING Tories! It's beginning to feel like having to listen to non-stop polka music, 24/7! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Molly, it's been about 10 years since I've worked on a campaign but even with my first one I quickly learned that LIBERALS DO PAY MUCH OF THEIR HELP! In fact, one Liberal friend admitted to me after the first Reform campaign that the level of volunteerism within Reform scared the hell out of them! People in this thread are relating to their own experience with different parties. Those parties have always run much more on volunteerism, mainly because historically they weren't as rich as the liberals. Just because you worked for the NDP and saw every one volunteering out of dedication is no reason to assume that it was the same thing over in the Liberal camp! This is also one of the main reasons why the Liberals are having such troubles mounting effective campaigns today. They aren't nearly as rich! The rules were changed so that they can't count on big business and private patron donations and they still haven't learned how to raise money from the grass roots like the Tories. They are slowly getting in better shape but for generations people took it for granted that if you worked on a Liberal campaign, even as just a scrutineer, you got something for it. Now many Liberal riding teams just can't afford to do that. The Liberals really need a complete overhaul. They've done part of the job but they still have a ways to go. As I've said before, I'm beginning to resent that they are not offering me an alternative to the very BORING Tories! It's beginning to feel like having to listen to non-stop polka music, 24/7! That is what I am saying I haven't met a Liberal working on a campaign that wasn't paid. Almost all of them though were paid those central so the Local Liberal could get under the cap. I have worked on campaigns where people never got paid but not Big ones never the ones for the "Star" candidates like Trudeau. So why does his election return say he paid no one a Salary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 I think I found the list here in the following and today, Harper said they have CHANGED their ways, so he just admit guilt. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/elections-canada-charges-four-senior-conservative-officials-20110224-201435-903.html You mean the CPC needs to follow legal interpretations that come down at some unknown time in the future? What happens to you if you're driving on a road and a year later they reduce the speed limit. Were you speeding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 You mean the CPC needs to follow legal interpretations that come down at some unknown time in the future? What happens to you if you're driving on a road and a year later they reduce the speed limit. Were you speeding? Oh come on. This wasn't a bloody legal interpretation. They knew damned well they were violating the intent of the law. Again, try that kind of crap on a judge and find out how far it will get you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Oh come on. This wasn't a bloody legal interpretation. They knew damned well they were violating the intent of the law. Again, try that kind of crap on a judge and find out how far it will get you. TB, most politicians are lawyers. What the hell does a lawyer care about 'intent'? It's all about technicalities and interpretations and if a lawyer's trick can get someone off the hook that's good enough. None of them even THINK about whether there were good intentions or if the perp was really MORALLY innocent! Tory lawyers are no different than Liberal lawyers. Or am I just too cynical? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 I guess the NDP pay the union guys working on NDP campaigns so they think the only way to get "party candidate support" is to pay them... Sorry to inform you that not only don't the people working on Liberal campaigns get paid, most of the people working on them CONTRIBUTE money to the campaign... In my case, being the cheap person I am, my wife and I contributed $100.00 each ($75.00 is a tax write-off) to Kevin Lamoureau's SUCCESSFUL Federal bi-Election campaign and only worked about 20 hours each this TIME around because we were quite busy with some other things... Approx. 250 people spent some TIME working on Kevin's campaign... The Liberal Party, federal and provincial combined, maintain a permenent staff in Manitoba consisting of 4 staff that get a salary year round and are paid from party funds and NOT election funds... They do work on campaigns as part of their job during an election... There you have your answer to the matter of who gets paid... At least as it pertains to LIBERAL campaigns and I've worked on municipal (non party), provincial, and federal campaigns for many, many years and have never received a dime from/for any of them, several of which I was the Campaign Manager for and my wife was the Official Agent (in charge of finances) on a couple of them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 What the hell does a lawyer care about 'intent'? It's all about technicalities and interpretations and if a lawyer's trick can get someone off the hook that's good enough. Spot on. It's a known fact in legal circles that the text of legislation in English translated into French and vice versa offers variations that can be exploited for or against in legal arguments. In other words, imprecise translation has been used many times in deliberating technical legalistic points. In such cases, intent is all but lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Molly, it's been about 10 years since I've worked on a campaign but even with my first one I quickly learned that LIBERALS DO PAY MUCH OF THEIR HELP! In fact, one Liberal friend admitted to me after the first Reform campaign that the level of volunteerism within Reform scared the hell out of them! People in this thread are relating to their own experience with different parties. Those parties have always run much more on volunteerism, mainly because historically they weren't as rich as the liberals. Just because you worked for the NDP and saw every one volunteering out of dedication is no reason to assume that it was the same thing over in the Liberal camp! This is also one of the main reasons why the Liberals are having such troubles mounting effective campaigns today. They aren't nearly as rich! The rules were changed so that they can't count on big business and private patron donations and they still haven't learned how to raise money from the grass roots like the Tories. They are slowly getting in better shape but for generations people took it for granted that if you worked on a Liberal campaign, even as just a scrutineer, you got something for it. Now many Liberal riding teams just can't afford to do that. The Liberals really need a complete overhaul. They've done part of the job but they still have a ways to go. As I've said before, I'm beginning to resent that they are not offering me an alternative to the very BORING Tories! It's beginning to feel like having to listen to non-stop polka music, 24/7! Me thinks you doest protest too much Bill to be anything but a TRUE BLUE bonefide CON shill... Have a nice day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Me thinks you doest protest too much Bill to be anything but a TRUE BLUE bonefide CON shill... Have a nice day... We've been over this before. I guess to you a "CON shill" is anyone who doesn't support the Liberals. Over my life I've voted Liberal, PC, Reform, Alliance and now CPC. Every time I switched I felt it was because my incumbent party changed and expected me to follow along like some kind of trusting little sheep. I guess I'm not one to drink the offered Kool-Aid without sniffing it first. The difference between us is that I freely admit that the CPC is only my first choice by default, for lack of anything better. Your posts, however, seem to express total support and agreement for the Liberal Party in virtually every situation. You seem to feel that we should all agree with your choice simply because YOU tell us it's the truth! The old "Jehovah Witness" school of argument, I guess. As I keep saying, if the Liberals ever start to act like Liberals you might very likely see me trade sides. Something tells me I will never see the same thing happen over on your side of the fence. To some folks it's the jerseys. Others look at the players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 We've been over this before. I guess to you a "CON shill" is anyone who doesn't support the Liberals. ------- As opposed to a Liebral shill, of which there are plenty on here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Molly, it's been about 10 years since I've worked on a campaign but even with my first one I quickly learned that LIBERALS DO PAY MUCH OF THEIR HELP!....... Just because you worked for the NDP and saw every one volunteering out of dedication is no reason to assume that it was the same thing over in the Liberal camp!................ They are slowly getting in better shape but for generations people took it for granted that if you worked on a Liberal campaign, even as just a scrutineer, you got something for it. Now many Liberal riding teams just can't afford to do that. Well, Bill, you've never worked for the Liberals to know, (and I haven't worked for them enough to speak with authourity) and I've never worked for the NDP to come up with that equivalency (though I match most of the rest of your list)... but a good friend of mine who was a federal candidate for the NDP told me a story. He moved out to BC, and when an election came up, he immediately marched himself down to volunteer. Anything at all, from licking stamps to briefing the candidate, recruiting and training volunteers, manning the phones or writing the speaches, he was qualified and willing... he'd been eyebrow deep in political organizing from the time he was weaned, brilliant, articulate... Well.... they didn't need any help but could always use more money... So he tried to explain that he might have more to offer than could usually be easily hired, and was told no, thanks, but money would be nice.... So he went home. I didn't have the nerve to ask whether he voted for the guy. I figure it has more to do with locale than party; resources available for use than party. I haven't seen a lot to choose between the ways the various parties approach it. Always paid, and for generations? (especially high profile campaigns?) Father-in-law spent a fair amount of time footsoldiering for Ralph Goodale. Not one dime, never suggested and certainly never paid. My bro was a Liberal constituency president for a good long while, and would have been offended by either the offer or the request... Like I said, I can't refute it in any absolute way, because paying staff isn't at all unreasonable, but I don't buy the accusation that the absence of slaries is gamesmanship and fraud, or that Liberal workers aren't volunteers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Ashley Posted March 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 (edited) Actually I have very loose connections of putting food into or onto people. I may have given Paul Martin a bagel once.. (probably someone else entirely gave him a little extra creme cheese on the bagel didn't know it was him at the time) I may have served one of the local MP's wine and dinner (although this may be mistaken identity too - I think it was someone else entirely yeah I think I got this one wrong) - it was scotts none the less... and we know what that means my mom served Dalton McGuinty a coffee. My brother did banquette service for a chretien event (apparently he states chretien made a joke about the Sea King crashing into the sea and asking what they needed them for (what do they need an airforce for, they are the navy) maybe this is embellishment and the joke was never actually told. I was questioned about the Stockwell Day milking in 1996 or so - this is in regard to Julian Ichim who ensued to do a 15+ year running gag of events (some less funny than others) that occured on that not so lonely afternoon/evening(I was actually both pro liberal and pro reform at this point) You might like something someone in the party did meanwhile you might hate something someone in the party did or didn't do to you or someone else. Parties are not sacred, they are composites, and it is next to imposible to have a clean association with any specific party. There is a lot of funny insignifigant stories - really it is a very small world. These things are not beyond sight people know people and it is not difficult to be connected to these people by one or two places only . be it the PM the governor general or really anyone. It is a small world. It is about "ISSUES" not parties. Of course this is all hearsay and this isn't per se my highlights as I've had other associations with other individuals that I'm not going to mention at this time. But the bottom line for me is that.. you don't need to be directly involved in the membership of a party to interact with members of a party. Regardless of what party it is.. also just because someone has met you or communicated with you doesn't mean they value what you have to say. Or even close to share your opinion on something. Edited March 4, 2011 by William Ashley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 The Tories don't need to care. The Liberals are done Federally and Provincially in Ontario. it'll be a landslide majority victory in the Federal and Ontario Provincial elections for the Tories. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 I guess the NDP pay the union guys working on NDP campaigns so they think the only way to get "party candidate support" is to pay them... Sorry to inform you that not only don't the people working on Liberal campaigns get paid, most of the people working on them CONTRIBUTE money to the campaign... In my case, being the cheap person I am, my wife and I contributed $100.00 each ($75.00 is a tax write-off) to Kevin Lamoureau's SUCCESSFUL Federal bi-Election campaign and only worked about 20 hours each this TIME around because we were quite busy with some other things... Approx. 250 people spent some TIME working on Kevin's campaign... The Liberal Party, federal and provincial combined, maintain a permenent staff in Manitoba consisting of 4 staff that get a salary year round and are paid from party funds and NOT election funds... They do work on campaigns as part of their job during an election... There you have your answer to the matter of who gets paid... At least as it pertains to LIBERAL campaigns and I've worked on municipal (non party), provincial, and federal campaigns for many, many years and have never received a dime from/for any of them, several of which I was the Campaign Manager for and my wife was the Official Agent (in charge of finances) on a couple of them... A Bi-Election where every Liberal from MB and some from SK come into work is not your "Normal" election seriously if you believe Trudeau does not have paid staff I have a bridge to sell you. BTW Trudeau is not the only Liberal. Again they have paid staff they are paid centrally not at the Ridding level even though they work at the ridding level and not centrally. BTW working for the Liberals in MB I expect you shouldn't get paid why would they waste their money in a place they don't have a chance in hell of winning? Seriously your perspective is wrong. The NDP don't pay people on campaigns they are going to lose in Alberta or in PEI either it is a waste of money. That isn't what I am saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribblet Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 (edited) The original 'in and out' practice http://communities.canada.com/montrealgazette/blogs/onthehill/archive/2008/04/29/the-original-in-and-out-election-financing.aspx Evidence of how the Liberals and the NDP engage in their own In-and-Out funding efforts http://stevejanke.com/archives/246538.php Interesting perspective on EC's crusade against the Conservatives. http://www.ottawacitizen.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=4381443 But are these charges valid or are they politically motivated? It's a question that needs to be asked because bureaucrats at Elections Canada are not above using the power of the courts to go after people they don't like. I should know.Ten years ago I too was charged by Elections Canada for supposedly violating election rules. Or more specifically, the charge was lodged against the group I worked for at the time, the National Citizens Coalition, a conservative advocacy group. I believed then and I believe now, the charge against the NCC was nothing but a sham. Simply put, the Elections Canada bureaucrats were misusing the law to punish a pesky political opponent. Now before you write me off as paranoid, consider the background. Before the charge was laid against us, the NCC had long been a vocal opponent of Elections Canada's attempts to impose free-speech stifling third-party advertising laws on the country. We called them election gag laws. ------- What I can say, however, is that Canada's election laws are vague and confusing, leaving them open to interpretation. Such a situation can give an awful lot of power to unelected bureaucrats who may have an ideological axe to grind. Edited March 5, 2011 by scribblet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 TB, most politicians are lawyers. What the hell does a lawyer care about 'intent'? It's all about technicalities and interpretations and if a lawyer's trick can get someone off the hook that's good enough. None of them even THINK about whether there were good intentions or if the perp was really MORALLY innocent!For criminal matters and such civil matters as fraud, "mens rea" or scienter is extremely important. For most areas of law, however, intent is not an issue. I would assume without knowing that election law is probably an area where intent is generally not an issue since the rules have to be clear, bright line rules.Tory lawyers are no different than Liberal lawyers.Calling me a "Tory lawyer" give me too much credit. I am not a Canadian citizen, not a Canadian lawyer, and in the U.S. I am a registered Democrat. If I were to have any Canadian political affiliations it would most likely be with the NDP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Actually I have very loose connections...in your cerebral wiring?Your post makes no sense whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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