jbg Posted February 21, 2011 Report Posted February 21, 2011 Its easy to condemn Israel. they are the powerful occupiers of territories deemed by the international community as "not theirs". But that's a simplistic perspective, ignorning how Israel's actions and strategy were shaped as much by nationalistic objectives (such as self preservation) as by Arab rhetoric and actions following the humiliation of al-nakba. this is not a black and white situation. If it was, it would have been resolved years ago. Its a long, painful and convoluted history. the nuances of the contemporary political decisions and compromises are lost in time. Witness the bitter arguments over the absence of the word "the" in UN 242. I picked this post as the starting point of a new thread to avoid "thread drift", as is inevitable in Middle East and other threads.The history of the Middle East has been rife with bloodshed. In ancient times, the Amelkites and Jebusites "fought" the stragglers of the Hebrews, i.e. the old, frail and weak, and the children. Sound familiar. The British wrestled with the problem of creating a modicum of justice for both Jews and Arabs. The New York Times article below, from the November 13, 1938 issue (link, PM me for PDF if you can't get it and want full article) highlights the dilemna. Excerpts below: PALESTINE CASE IS REOPENED British Have a Difficult Task to Adjust the Rival Claims of the Jews and Arabs LONDON, Nov. 12.-While the Nazis this week were staging the most furious of a long series of pogroms, which will add tens of thousands to the stream of dispossessed refugees that Germany is casting upon other countries, publication in London of the latest report on Palestine showed the whole question of a Jewish national home there was again in the melting pot. One elaborate blue book has canceled out another. The Woodhead commission has killed the partition scheme of the Peel commission. The British Government, which had adopted the plan for separate States in Palestine, now rejects it, purposing to administer the mandate of the whole territory pending a general conference of Jews, Arabs and British. Thus the whole issue is back where it was before the Royal Commission studied it last year. Jews driven from Germany do not yet know to what extent they will be permitted to live in Palestine, where the Arabs forcibly are resisting their influx. ****************************** Work of the Jews In Palestine Jews have created a modern community in a backward land, thus raising the standard of life for themselves as well as for Arabs, who now live far better than their fathers did. But some Arabs bitterly resent this achievement, which hurts their .. pride, so they rebel all the more furiously because it is against what seems a more competent and more advanced race, particularly since it is backed by foreign capital provided by Jews in Europe and America. To enforce fair play amid such racial bitterness, to permit Jewish immigration, according to the meaning of the Balfour declaration in favor of a Jewish national home in Palestine while safeguarding the Arabs' interests-as she is obliged to do-is a difficult, perhaps impossible, task for Britain. She assumed it chiefly because, for speaking the same language-even strategic reasons, she desired keep a grip on Palestine. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Oleg Bach Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 The middle east is on fire - and the west have struck the match...as Arab nations are rejigged---Israel will not be spared the curse of re-structuring...this in my poor little mind is orchestrated...one must remember that Arabs are semites and Israels are also semites...time for the semites to unite - or they will all become oil out posts for the west...and srife will continue....what right do a few individuals have to send in provoceteurs to boost oil prices and to rid nations of dictatorships...only to install more fresh dictators that are more compliant...The middle east is like feminism - eventually if you hate long enough you become what you hate. Quote
jbg Posted February 22, 2011 Author Report Posted February 22, 2011 The middle east is on fire - and the west have struck the match...No, a Tunisian vegetable dealer did that. as Arab nations are rejigged---Israel will not be spared the curse of re-structuring...this in my poor little mind is orchestrated...one must remember that Arabs are semites and Israels are also semites...time for the semites to unite - or they will all become oil out posts for the west...and srife will continue....what right do a few individuals have to send in provoceteurs to boost oil prices and to rid nations of dictatorships...only to install more fresh dictators that are more compliant...The middle east is like feminism - eventually if you hate long enough you become what you hate. It would be nice. My instinct is that the Arabs don't ahve the sense to unite with the Hebrews. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Jonsa Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 The middle east is on fire - and the west have struck the match...as Arab nations are rejigged---Israel will not be spared the curse of re-structuring...this in my poor little mind is orchestrated...one must remember that Arabs are semites and Israels are also semites...time for the semites to unite - or they will all become oil out posts for the west...and srife will continue....what right do a few individuals have to send in provoceteurs to boost oil prices and to rid nations of dictatorships...only to install more fresh dictators that are more compliant...The middle east is like feminism - eventually if you hate long enough you become what you hate. Ah so reminiscent of my hippie days. What exactly are you smoking man, and where can I get me some? Quote
Jonsa Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 In Palestine Jews have created a modern community in a backward land, thus raising the standard of life for themselves as well as for Arabs, who now live far better than their fathers did.But some Arabs bitterly resent this achievement, which hurts their .. pride, so they rebel all the more furiously because it is against what seems a more competent and more advanced race, particularly since it is backed by foreign capital provided by Jews in Europe and America Regrettably this is what passed for serious political analysis in the late 30's. This notion that the land was destitute or barren before the arrival of the jews is simply wrong. There can be no question that the influx of jews did increase available capital and stimulate the economy, but by no means were they economic "white knights" improving the lot of the poor backward arabs. If one examines land ownership, agricultural production etc. directly from British Mandate records and the last survey prior to the mandate ending, that arabs owned over 90% of the arable land and accounted for some 75% of output. What is true is that jews had far more efficient kibbutzes and utilized irrigation techniques that made them far more productive. Quote
Muddy Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 What we all forget is the UN created Israel and sanctioned the new nation. It has a right to exist. Yes ,they did make the desert flower. Arabs who stayed and were welcomed are living with more freedom than those living in the rest of the middle east. Democracy only flourishs in Israel as far as the middle east is concerned at this present moment. Lets us all hope and pray that democracy will take hold after these up rising. Quote
jbg Posted February 22, 2011 Author Report Posted February 22, 2011 Regrettably this is what passed for serious political analysis in the late 30's. This notion that the land was destitute or barren before the arrival of the jews is simply wrong. There can be no question that the influx of jews did increase available capital and stimulate the economy, but by no means were they economic "white knights" improving the lot of the poor backward arabs. If one examines land ownership, agricultural production etc. directly from British Mandate records and the last survey prior to the mandate ending, that arabs owned over 90% of the arable land and accounted for some 75% of output. What is true is that jews had far more efficient kibbutzes and utilized irrigation techniques that made them far more productive. You're picking the wrong time periods to compare. Agricultural production in say 1900 vs. 1920 vs. 1948 would be appropriate. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Jonsa Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 What we all forget is the UN created Israel and sanctioned the new nation. It has a right to exist. Yes ,they did make the desert flower. Arabs who stayed and were welcomed are living with more freedom than those living in the rest of the middle east. Democracy only flourishs in Israel as far as the middle east is concerned at this present moment. Lets us all hope and pray that democracy will take hold after these up rising. Sorry, but the UN didn't create israel. Israel was created by force of arms. As for its right to exist, name me a country that doesn't. I also wish for a more democratic middle east. I don't pray but I'll hope. Quote
Jonsa Posted February 22, 2011 Report Posted February 22, 2011 You're picking the wrong time periods to compare. Agricultural production in say 1900 vs. 1920 vs. 1948 would be appropriate. Why would that be more appropriate to the point I was making? do you think that jewish ownership of arable land was greater earlier, or that their % of production was even greater? Quote
jbg Posted February 22, 2011 Author Report Posted February 22, 2011 What we all forget is the UN created Israel and sanctioned the new nation. It has a right to exist. Sorry, but the UN didn't create israel. Israel was created by force of arms. As for its right to exist, name me a country that doesn't.Unfortunately I'm with Jonsa on this one. The U.N.'s piece of paper did not create Israel. The U.N. recognized the fact of Israeli independence. That fact was created when Britain abandoned the mandate. Israel is, by these measures, just as legitimate a nation as the U.S.Canada's independence came by a different route; Canada was created by Great Britain. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted February 22, 2011 Author Report Posted February 22, 2011 Why would that be more appropriate to the point I was making? do you think that jewish ownership of arable land was greater earlier, or that their % of production was even greater? Jewish capital create arable land where none existed, and the benefit initially went to both Arab and Jewish landowners. The text is correct that prior to Jewish migration the land was rather desolate. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Jonsa Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 Jewish capital create arable land where none existed, and the benefit initially went to both Arab and Jewish landowners. The text is correct that prior to Jewish migration the land was rather desolate. I agree Jewish land ownership (kibbutz) created more productive farming thru irrigation. The large arab land holders that sold land to the jews benefitted from jewish capital, and certainly some of the improvements in distribution and infrastructure helped the arabs, but only indirectly. Now, perhaps you can point me to some credible sources about the land being "rather desolate" when do you mean "prior to jewish migration". (spare me the mark twain anecdote). And I am still waiting for an explanation why earlier agricultrual production figures would be more appropriate. Quote
Muddy Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 Unfortunately I'm with Jonsa on this one. The U.N.'s piece of paper did not create Israel. The U.N. recognized the fact of Israeli independence. That fact was created when Britain abandoned the mandate. Israel is, by these measures, just as legitimate a nation as the U.S. Canada's independence came by a different route; Canada was created by Great Britain. I stand corrected on this point. But for anyone to not recognize Israel~s right to exist at this stage is ridiculous. The only true democracy thus far in the middle east. Quote
jbg Posted March 7, 2011 Author Report Posted March 7, 2011 I stand corrected on this point. But for anyone to not recognize Israel~s right to exist at this stage is ridiculous. The only true democracy thus far in the middle east. And as I pointed out in the opening post, for a long time it's been the only decent country, whether in ancient or modern times, in the Middle East. May I point out that the Romans were shocked by the amount of baby sacrifice that went on in Carthage, progenitors to modern Libya? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
GostHacked Posted March 7, 2011 Report Posted March 7, 2011 And as I pointed out in the opening post, for a long time it's been the only decent country, whether in ancient or modern times, in the Middle East. May I point out that the Romans were shocked by the amount of baby sacrifice that went on in Carthage, progenitors to modern Libya? I don't understand the connection. Can you elaborate? Quote
jbg Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Posted March 9, 2011 I don't understand the connection. Can you elaborate? My point is that most countries in that area have the same characteristics, brutal or otherwise, that they had in Old Testament days. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
eyeball Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 May I point out that the Romans were shocked by the amount of baby sacrifice that went on in Carthage, progenitors to modern Libya? My point is that most countries in that area have the same characteristics, brutal or otherwise, that they had in Old Testament days. It's funny how blood libels have similar characteristics no matter what day and age they're used. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
jbg Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Posted March 9, 2011 It's funny how blood libels have similar characteristics no matter what day and age they're used. You mean the Libyan situation, September 11, and forehead bloodying aren't savage? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
eyeball Posted March 9, 2011 Report Posted March 9, 2011 You mean the Libyan situation, September 11, and forehead bloodying aren't savage? No that's that's not what I meant because it's not what I said. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
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