Jack Weber Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 Nothing is eternal. Everything is finite, even the universe it seems .. for all it's vastness .. is finite. God seems to differ with you on your God given logic and reason... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
GostHacked Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 God seems to differ with you on your God given logic and reason... God has not given me anything, I asked and begged, pleaded and prayed for god to help me when I was young, but nothing ever came about, he never showed himself. My parents are the ones who deserve credit for who and what I am today. I also have to give myself credit. If the old saying is true that God helps those who have first helped themselves, then I have to take credit for helping myself. Quote
dre Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 Are you suggesting nothing in The Bible,Old or New Testament ever happened?? Not really... religious books are all written by PEOPLE at various times. They blend the agenda of the authors (compilers) with certain cultural aspects from that time, along with some factual historical context. Some of the things described in them are definately historically accurate at least in terms of the ability of the authors to understand the world around them at that time. This is relatively understood... we understand how religions emerge and we have a pretty good idea why. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
GostHacked Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 Not really... religious books are all written by PEOPLE at various times. They blend the agenda of the authors (compilers) with certain cultural aspects from that time, along with some factual historical context. Some of the things described in them are definately historically accurate at least in terms of the ability of the authors to understand the world around them at that time. This is relatively understood... we understand how religions emerge and we have a pretty good idea why. Evolution! Quote
Jack Weber Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 (edited) Not really... religious books are all written by PEOPLE at various times. They blend the agenda of the authors (compilers) with certain cultural aspects from that time, along with some factual historical context. Some of the things described in them are definately historically accurate at least in terms of the ability of the authors to understand the world around them at that time. This is relatively understood... we understand how religions emerge and we have a pretty good idea why. Again...So says the humanist... By the way,how does one account for the Book of Flavius Josephus? Or do you even know what that is without looking it up? Edited April 4, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
cybercoma Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 we are given a New Covenant in the New Testament that,by the Saviour's own admission,supercedes the Old Testament Law? Not so fast...Matthew 5:17-20 (NIV) 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. Quote
Oleg Bach Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 So says the humanist... Satanist - humanist...religious fanatic - what's the difference? Quote
Jack Weber Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 Not so fast... Matthew 5:17-20 (NIV) 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. Right!! Not abolished because it still applies.. It's just superceded by the New Covenant... That's the point Jesus is trying to make concerning The Pharisees... One can be as religious all they want and adhere to The Law all they want.... It's not enough... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Jack Weber Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 Satanist - humanist...religious fanatic - what's the difference? Let's take out the middle one for the moment... One and three of your little missive goes to the question I asked in post 561... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
ToadBrother Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 Again...So says the humanist... By the way,how does one account for the Book of Flavius Josephus? Or do you even know what that is without looking it up? Which, when all the later 3rd century "additions" are torn out, basically said little more than "There was a preacher named Jesus who pissed off the establishment and was put to death by the Romans." Quote
Jack Weber Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 Which, when all the later 3rd century "additions" are torn out, basically said little more than "There was a preacher named Jesus who pissed off the establishment and was put to death by the Romans." That's an interesting take... Who put in those 3rd Century additions??? I've only heared non-believers make this claim in an attempt to discredit Josephus... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Oleg Bach Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 That's an interesting take... Who put in those 3rd Century additions??? I've only heared non-believers make this claim in an attempt to discredit Josephus... Jesus was the deposed establishment! He was the rightful "king of judea" - It was a real estate dispute - Interlopers wanted the person who was heir to the royal lands dead - Pontius Pilate knew who he was...and begged his friend to submit and back down..Jesus through his own death conquered the Roman empire..to this day he though his spirit rules the bastards. Quote
ToadBrother Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 That's an interesting take... Who put in those 3rd Century additions??? Christian scholars, most likely. I've only heared non-believers make this claim in an attempt to discredit Josephus... I'm sure you have. Since Josephus is the only extant writings from the 1st century outside of the Gospels that even mention Jesus. Wikipedia gives a reasonably decent run down, for the most part textual analysis heavily suggests that Josephus's writings were tampered with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#Authenticity Quote
Jack Weber Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 Which, when all the later 3rd century "additions" are torn out, basically said little more than "There was a preacher named Jesus who pissed off the establishment and was put to death by the Romans." This is one of the best sites I know of that goes into great depth about The Book(s) of Josephus... http://www.josephus.org As it relates to the corraborating evidence supporting the existence of the Saviour specifically... It's simply not as cut and dried as you would like to make it... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
dre Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 Again...So says the humanist... By the way,how does one account for the Book of Flavius Josephus? Or do you even know what that is without looking it up? No I dont know what that is. As for dismissing what I say (again) with nothing but "youre a humanist" the reality is we have watched religions form from nothing... we have documented that process pretty well, and we know that there have been many hundreds of thousands of religions, and that its been something we have done for a long long time. You believe what you believe for the exact same reasons that other cultures worshipped the sun as good, or planets, stars, fish, and just about anything else. A good read for the purpose of understanding how religions are formed is to read about Cargoism... an established religion in the Malanaysian Islands. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Jack Weber Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 No I dont know what that is. As for dismissing what I say (again) with nothing but "youre a humanist" the reality is we have watched religions form from nothing... we have documented that process pretty well, and we know that there have been many hundreds of thousands of religions, and that its been something we have done for a long long time. You believe what you believe for the exact same reasons that other cultures worshipped the sun as good, or planets, stars, fish, and just about anything else. A good read for the purpose of understanding how religions are formed is to read about Cargoism... an established religion in the Malanaysian Islands. I don't disagree with anyone that thinks religion is bad... But religion is a manmade construct...Therefore it is inherently failed... That's the main point Jesus makes about the Pharisees... Sure they were religious,but did they have faith? Faith is the issue,not whatever man made machinations an organization puts on its members as a physical manifestation of that faith... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
dre Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 I don't disagree with anyone that thinks religion is bad... But religion is a manmade construct...Therefore it is inherently failed... That's the main point Jesus makes about the Pharisees... Sure they were religious,but did they have faith? Faith is the issue,not whatever man made machinations an organization puts on its members as a physical manifestation of that faith... I dont think religion is inherently good OR bad. But yes... its a manmade construct that developes to serve a cultural purpose or answer important questions and fill in important blanks. And whats more it almost ALWAYS developes. If you looked at all the humans that have lived in the last 5000 years probably more than 99% have believed in one of the hundreds of thousands of religions that people have invented throughout history. To subscribe to a human religion is an act of faith in humans themSELVES. Not a faith in any god. Thats why cargoism is such an interesting paralell. We actually watched that religion form from nothing... their god(s) are western planes, and the goods that they brought when the Malanaysian Islands were used as a staging area during the war. The people there were completely isolated and had never seen ANY kind of technology before, and the troops would give them cases of food and goods. 50 years later they were still isolated, and theres a full fledged religion. These tribesman build landing strips in the jungle complete with little air traffic control huts, and staff them with people who have headphones similar to what they westerners wear during the war, except for fassioned out of branches and bark. They believe if they build these airstrips the gods will come back and bring them more goods. This is why Iv remained agnostic. Joined one of the organized human religion requires such a huge leap of faith in other PEOPLE, and the human race just has no credibility when it comes to god. We have a history of labelling as god just about EVERYTHING. The biggest indictment of organized religion is that the people that believe in it are humans. And given our history of inventing complex stories/rituals/constructs every single time we see something we dont understand or have a question we cant answer, just makes it reasonable to assume that humans have worshipped thousands of different gods not because those gods actually exist but because its JUST SOMETHING WE DO. Its human nature for you to believe what you do... once we understand the brain better we'll probably be able to understand the biochemistry that causes people to be religious and recreate religion in a lab Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Oleg Bach Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 There are no myths when it comes to a history that has sustained itself for over 2000 years. This is not about belief or non-belief. This is about a fairly well document sequence of events..sure the church might have embelished the historical facts with some ideas that were mythical in order to gain the trust of the naive and fanceful...but - the fact is that a great Judean King that was internally displaced within his own nation - did exist..and he was a brilliant and logical thinker. Those that like to discredit Jesus Christ are usually those who are full of ego-centirc arrogance. People who have not given any thought or consideration to the brilliance of his statements - want to stop war - love your enemy. This concept works - either love me or destroy yourself with your own hate - It's a win win idea. Quote
Jack Weber Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 There are no myths when it comes to a history that has sustained itself for over 2000 years. This is not about belief or non-belief. This is about a fairly well document sequence of events..sure the church might have embelished the historical facts with some ideas that were mythical in order to gain the trust of the naive and fanceful...but - the fact is that a great Judean King that was internally displaced within his own nation - did exist..and he was a brilliant and logical thinker. Those that like to discredit Jesus Christ are usually those who are full of ego-centirc arrogance. People who have not given any thought or consideration to the brilliance of his statements - want to stop war - love your enemy. This concept works - either love me or destroy yourself with your own hate - It's a win win idea. Well.. It's humanistic arrogance...Hubris...Pride... Satan's favourite sin... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
Oleg Bach Posted April 5, 2011 Report Posted April 5, 2011 Well.. It's humanistic arrogance...Hubris...Pride... Satan's favourite sin... RULE number one in the real scheme of true law and order -You can be like God - but you will never be God. That is the devine order. Those that attempt to take the position of the father by killing the father our out of order. There is only one thing that I find respectable about what was originally Islam - was the idea of "submission" - to God - but now there is a trend where sons hate their fathers and can not wait to take the throne. This humanistic arrogance exists within our world and beyond. My belief is that man kind sustains the idea of Satan...I am sure that God has forgiven one of his finest angels...but man clings to this idea that evil is a brave and noble thing...evil is rebellion against all that, that sustains human life - it is really quite stupid. Quote
dre Posted April 5, 2011 Report Posted April 5, 2011 LOL. Ok guys, carry on. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
betsy Posted April 5, 2011 Report Posted April 5, 2011 This is why Iv remained agnostic. You're agnostic? I thought you're atheist. Quote
Jack Weber Posted April 5, 2011 Report Posted April 5, 2011 LOL. Ok guys, carry on. Don't worry... I've laughed at your faith in secular humanism many times myself... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
ToadBrother Posted April 5, 2011 Report Posted April 5, 2011 Don't worry... I've laughed at your faith in secular humanism many times myself... I'm not sure why you loathe secularism so much. After all, it's about the only thing that's stopped the West from descending into another Thirty Years War. Quote
Jack Weber Posted April 5, 2011 Report Posted April 5, 2011 I'm not sure why you loathe secularism so much. After all, it's about the only thing that's stopped the West from descending into another Thirty Years War. I don't loathe it... In fact,I partake of it sometimes... But like all things,in moderation... I never put my faith in man because man is failed and will always let people down... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
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