American (Canadian) - Israeli Special Relationship

[Jonsa]

When has Canada ever been one of three or less countries in the world voting against a resolution against any of those countries?

Canada does not unconditionally back up other nations who are in violation of international law for over 40 years.

Canada goes to bat for Israel to an extent we do not do so for any other nation.

You have still not proven your premise. Canada doesn't vote against UN general assembly resolutions against the US or Britain or china because there aren't any.

International law is always and forever trumped by national security interests. Please show point to one single example of a UN General Assembly resolution (which are not worth the paper they are printed on) that had ANY effect on the party it was intended to chastise or condemn.

And my point is that I don't see how this benefits us, and frankly I think it harms our international reputation, all in the name of very short-sighted vote grabbing at home.

I think Canada should treat Israel as it does the US or UK - which is to say that we believe either country is conducting foreign policy in a way that violates international law, we should express our disagreement, like we did for the Iraq War.

Um, we voiced our disagreements about the WB settlements and called for a cessation of hostilities in Gaza and condemned the IDF when they killed an apartment building full of people to nail one asshole terrorist. And I'm pretty sure we'll continue to do so.

My basic point on that is this: friends don't enable friends engage in self-destructive behaviour. That's what Canada is doing by rubber-stamping everything the Netanyahu government does. Israel isn't made stronger by colonizing land that's supposed to belong to someone else, and by placing Jews in the middle of towns populated by people who didn't like them to begin with, but hate them even more for colonizing their land. I don't think you can make the case that this helps Israel become more secure.

I don't understand how it's in Israel's interest to be engaging in a foreign policy which decreases it's international reputation, and even it's reputation among Jews. Most Jews dont' live in Israel, and aren't politically-conservative or orthodox, and therefor aren't Netanyahu supporters. American Jewish opinion of Israel has been declining steadily for decades, and it's because of things like the occupation.

I can't see how any of this is in Israel's interest

Hmmmm. Firstly Canada does not "rubber stamp" Bibi's government and its actions. Please cite examples of this rubber stamp or better yet, please explain what the opposite of rubber stamp is.

Secondly, most jews in Israel aren't Netanyahu supporters - its a coalition government there, you know just like

Canada and I think its pretty safe to say that most Canadians DONT support Harper.

Quite apart from making all kinds of unsubstantiated claims about what other people think or beleive, perhaps you can back up these contentions with more than just your personal feelings?

For instance, Please point me to the poll that shows American Jews declining support for Israel.

[Jonsa]

don't play stupid. here is some truth that you should consider before denying:

at the expense of america's security and the lives of americans? gee, i had no clue that this was okay in some people's world.

I see nothing about a system here. I see a lobby group doing its business and cutting a political deal with a politician. Something that is done every single day of the week in washington and expensive golf clubs around the country.

there was no overstating as everything he said was happening and happened.

you can pretend that the influence the israeli lobby has over the american politicians is nothing but anyone who isn't here with pompom's cheering for his tribe, would disagree.

I don't say its nothing. Actually, it is significant and they are really good at their jobs. I just don't think its a bad thing in context of the american political system. Its how things get done for good or bad. And let me tell you the palestinian lobby in washington really sucks at their job.

besides the information from the former head of AIPAC there are also the numerous AIPAC or AIPAC connected spies who have been charged with espionage. i guess a foreign backed lobby group spying for another country is okay in your books as well.

And what about all those Canadian spies running around Washington? Or are you going to deny that CSIS hasn't infiltrated Homeland Security, the DEA, and the CIA? You can easily identify them running around in lumber jackets, hockey sweater, shades and kodiaks.

[bud]

I see nothing about a system here. I see a lobby group doing its business and cutting a political deal with a politician. Something that is done every single day of the week in washington and expensive golf clubs around the country.

you don't see a system?

when a lobby group systematically pays towards politicians that will push their agenda, then it's called a system.

when the leader of this lobby group admits that his lobby group pushes and gets people connected to the lobby group into the government over and over again in order to push their agenda, then it's called a system.

I don't say its nothing. Actually, it is significant and they are really good at their jobs. I just don't think its a bad thing in context of the american political system. Its how things get done for good or bad.

really? pushing another country's agenda at the expense of american security is not a bad thing?

And what about all those Canadian spies running around Washington? Or are you going to deny that CSIS hasn't infiltrated Homeland Security, the DEA, and the CIA? You can easily identify them running around in lumber jackets, hockey sweater, shades and kodiaks.

not responding to a valid argument, like, a lobby group being caught spying for another country with really bad humour is weak.

you had a moment at the beginning where you came off as someone who was interested in being honest and logical about what is happening, but then when we got deeper into the conversation, your true colours are coming out. you're not interested in an honest debate, you're here making excuses and cheering for your tribe. that's too bad.

[Jonsa]

you don't see a system?

when a lobby group systematically pays towards politicians that will push their agenda, then it's called a system.

when the leader of this lobby group admits that his lobby group pushes and gets people connected to the lobby group into the government over and over again in order to push their agenda, then it's called a system.

Aren't they doing what every other lobby group does? Isn't that the purpose of a lobby group?

really? pushing another country's agenda at the expense of american security is not a bad thing?

I don't beleive it is "at the expense" of american security. I think Israel and US support for same is a relatively small part of a much much bigger global picture.

not responding to a valid argument, like, a lobby group being caught spying for another country with really bad humour is weak.

I'm sorry I can't seem to work up any false outrage about spying. I think every country and special interest on the planet does it and its kinda hypocritical to start jumping up and down condemning the poor bastard that got caught.

You think all those cultural attaches and trade analysts are actually cultural attaches and trade analysts?

you had a moment at the beginning where you came off as someone who was interested in being honest and logical about what is happening, but then when we got deeper into the conversation, your true colours are coming out. you're not interested in an honest debate, you're here making excuses and cheering for your tribe. that's too bad.

Cheering for my tribe? Hardly.

What I am is a pragmatist. I try to see the world for what it is, not what we would like it to be. You get all hot and bothered about a lobby group that is really really good at its job. Its one of hundreds of lobby groups in washington and they all attempt to do the same thing - influence policy and policy makers.

You are one of those people who think that Israel is the root causes of US troubles in the world. I just don't see it like that.Firstly the US is more than capable of causing their own trouble and secondly, The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is an excuse and not a reason used by Islamist assholes to justify some idiotic heinous action on their part in some other part of the world and who haven't given a damn about people of palestine EVER.

Then again, the protocols say.........

[jbg]

well, given the veto used by the US in the UN on the 19th regarding settlement in the West Bank area, can it still be said that the US does not pander to Israel? The settlements are illegal, but the US blocked any call by the UN for Israel to evacuate them. Once again, the US bends to the will of her owner.

Is Israel (and the U.S.) the only country bound by your concept of "illegal"? Are Quadafi's bullets being fired into his own peoples' crowds somehow "legal"?

[bud]

Aren't they doing what every other lobby group does? Isn't that the purpose of a lobby group?

other lobby groups are planting their agents in the government (as stated by the former head of AIPAC) and spying on the government?

do tell, which other lobby group does this?

I don't beleive it is "at the expense" of american security. I think Israel and US support for same is a relatively small part of a much much bigger global picture.

who cares what you believe. this unconditional support for israel is:

Petraeus: Israel is putting American lives at risk

i guess it's what you 'believe' and what general patraeus and many other professionals believe.

I'm sorry I can't seem to work up any false outrage about spying. I think every country and special interest on the planet does it and its kinda hypocritical to start jumping up and down condemning the poor bastard that got caught.

You think all those cultural attaches and trade analysts are actually cultural attaches and trade analysts?

oh yeah. it's hypocritical to condemn someone who has spied.

you're such a pragmatist.

Cheering for my tribe? Hardly.

What I am is a pragmatist. I try to see the world for what it is, not what we would like it to be. You get all hot and bothered about a lobby group that is really really good at its job. Its one of hundreds of lobby groups in washington and they all attempt to do the same thing - influence policy and policy makers.

You are one of those people who think that Israel is the root causes of US troubles in the world. I just don't see it like that.Firstly the US is more than capable of causing their own trouble and secondly, The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is an excuse and not a reason used by Islamist assholes to justify some idiotic heinous action on their part in some other part of the world and who haven't given a damn about people of palestine EVER.

Then again, the protocols say.........

i suppose that you believe there is nothing wrong with this either:

A U.S. government investigation of Israeli spying caught a prominent Democratic congresswoman discussing what is alleged to be a "quid pro quo" deal involving the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), Washington’s powerful, hawkish pro-Israel lobby.

Rep. Jane Harman of California was recorded in 2005 on a National Security Administration (NSA) wiretap promising a suspected Israeli agent that she would intervene on behalf of two AIPAC staffers accused of passing classified information to the Israeli government, and her interlocutor responded by promising to help get Harman appointed to a top congressional intelligence post, according to an article published Sunday by Congressional Quarterly (CQ).

really now.

you're such a pragmatist.

[Jonsa]

other lobby groups are planting their agents in the government (as stated by the former head of AIPAC) and spying on the government?

do tell, which other lobby group does this?

China

who cares what you believe. this unconditional support for israel is:

so why are you responding to me?

Petraeus: Israel is putting American lives at risk

i guess it's what you 'believe' and what general patraeus and many other professionals believe.

So what patreus is saying is abandon support for Israel and the arab states will allow the US to have more power and influence over them? Seems their really pissed with the US because of Israel so naturally what the US should do is whatever the arabs want. Great policy there.

oh yeah. it's hypocritical to condemn someone who has spied.

you're such a pragmatist.

Yes. It is a fact of realpolitik. Everybody does it. Hand wringing is hypocritical.

i suppose that you believe there is nothing wrong with this either:

A U.S. government investigation of Israeli spying caught a prominent Democratic congresswoman discussing what is alleged to be a "quid pro quo" deal involving the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), Washington’s powerful, hawkish pro-Israel lobby.

Rep. Jane Harman of California was recorded in 2005 on a National Security Administration (NSA) wiretap promising a suspected Israeli agent that she would intervene on behalf of two AIPAC staffers accused of passing classified information to the Israeli government, and her interlocutor responded by promising to help get Harman appointed to a top congressional intelligence post, according to an article published Sunday by Congressional Quarterly (CQ).

really now.

you're such a pragmatist.

yes I do think there is something wrong with that. I'm pretty sure that any congressperson directly intervening in any legal case is against the law. Not to mention if she knowingly was consorting with a foreign agent. am I surprised this stuff happens - no.

[bloodyminded]

My views of Israel are realistic in that it is neither all good nor all bad. It has its warts like every other place and its people seem to behave like people everywhere else. I do know an anti=semite when I see one, but a critic of Israel is not necessarily the same thing and most often isn't.

I agree with all this.

I think that US foreign policy is intrinsically righteous and moral.

I think the very notion is preposterous. Countries aren't moral agents; they can act both morally and immorally; and probably both simultaneously, in some cases. The US is perfectly usual in this regard.

How was the state terrorism and attempted genocide of the East Timorese an "intrinsically righteous and moral" act? And are the other donor-to-state terror nations involved likewise exonerated because of some intrinsic righteousness that--oddly--remains unarticulated to this day?

There are many other begged questions, but that long incident is a more devastating and clear-cut example than most.

Edited February 26, 2011 by bloodyminded

[jbg]

So what patreus is saying is abandon support for Israel and the arab states will allow the US to have more power and influence over them? Seems their really pissed with the US because of Israel so naturally what the US should do is whatever the arabs want. Great policy there.

The folly of his suggestion is now more clear than ever. Arab leaders are tumbling link nine-pins. So who would the U.S. have "power and influence" over by surrendering an ally?

Actually, it would panic our allies since we'd show ourselves unreliable. This happened as a result of Carter's sellout of the Shah and Somoza of Nicaragua.

[scouterjim]

Is Israel (and the U.S.) the only country bound by your concept of "illegal"? Are Quadafi's bullets being fired into his own peoples' crowds somehow "legal"?

I said nothing about Israel being "illegal", I said "the settlements are illegal". And, no, I in no way support Ghadaffi or his actions.

[bud]

China

china what?

show me proof of these agents and spies from china? tell me about the chinese lobby group(s).

so why are you responding to me?

because i enjoy correcting people.

So what patreus is saying is abandon support for Israel and the arab states will allow the US to have more power and influence over them? Seems their really pissed with the US because of Israel so naturally what the US should do is whatever the arabs want. Great policy there.

really now? that's what patraeus is saying.

the unconditional support for israel is harming u.s. shouldn't u.s. stop harming itself with its unconditional support for this rogue state?

Yes. It is a fact of realpolitik. Everybody does it. Hand wringing is hypocritical.

you're ridiculous.

do you know the penalty for spying? let me give you a clue; it's not "oh hey. no worries! we all do it!"

yes I do think there is something wrong with that.

alright. so you understand how it's wrong that AIPAC not only spies for israel, but also plants agents in the government and also, through giving money and doing political favours, gets u.s. politicians to reduce charges for spies that have been caught.

by the way, guess what one of the convicted israeli spy ended up receiving for punishment? it went down from 10 years to 2 months house arrest.

it's all good though, right?

[Jonsa]

china what?

show me proof of these agents and spies from china? tell me about the chinese lobby group(s).

THE OTHER SUPERPOWER

China's lobbying efforts yield new influence, openness on Capitol Hill

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/08/AR2010010803710.html

This is a helluva lobby group dedicated to doing business with china.

http://www.uschina.org/board_of_directors.html

China Lobby Curries Favor With U.S. Government

http://english.caijing.com.cn/2006-08-07/100014037.html

China broadens espionage operations

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-US&rlz=1I7_____en&q=china+espionage+us&aq=0&aqi=g1g-v9&aql=&oq=China+espionage+

U.S. worries about Chinese espionage

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-US&rlz=1I7_____en&q=china+espionage+us&aq=0&aqi=g1g-v9&aql=&oq=China+espionage+

From China with Love: How China Spies

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/spy/spies/

I could go on and on and on.

really now? that's what patraeus is saying.

the unconditional support for israel is harming u.s. shouldn't u.s. stop harming itself with its unconditional support for this rogue state?

you're ridiculous.

Interesting use of the term rogue state. Wrong, but interesting.

I maintain that Petreus premise that dropping support to Israel and/or boosting direct support to say Hamas or the PA would make arab and muslim nations like the US more and would make the US prosecution of war in Iraq and Afghanistan easier. I think that is a facile and altogether niaive expectation. I reject the notion that US support for Israel makes it easier to recruit for Al queada. Since 2002 that is a red herring as direct US actions have provide AQ with all the recruiting red meat they need (if anti evil infidel capitalist america is indeed a recruiting draw).

You think the the generational emnity of arabs to the jews needs any american involvement to continue to fester? American support is incidental to the underlying issues involved. Notwithstanding the US will continue to support Israel for two very simple related reasons:

1. If Israel lays down its weapons, there will be genocide, if arabs lay down their weapons there will be peace.

2. The US will not allow genocide of jews to happen again on their watch as the internal and external political capital that would squander would morally bankrupt the country.

do you know the penalty for spying? let me give you a clue; it's not "oh hey. no worries! we all do it!"

Oh of course not, "its we sent a sternly worded diplomatic note, we expelled two cultural attaches and we're going to really get mad at the spy we caught". Then, depending on if the nation caught spying can conveniently catch a spy from the nation that caught their spy, they exchange spys. spys caught in most totalitarian countries are treated to any number of painful deaths unless that spy's continued existence would be an embarrassment to his home country. I could go on and on about how undefinitive the treatment of spies is, depending on circumstance, parties involved, and how much is in the pot.

alright. so you understand how it's wrong that AIPAC not only spies for israel, but also plants agents in the government and also, through giving money and doing political favours, gets u.s. politicians to reduce charges for spies that have been caught.

by the way, guess what one of the convicted israeli spy ended up receiving for punishment? it went down from 10 years to 2 months house arrest.

Guess Pollard didn't have enough juice.

Harman got off and was re-elected, the american got 12 years and the other two got off cause a trial would divulge top secret stuff (according to the prosecution). Ya see, juggle, dodge, make it look good,news cycle over, move on, nothing to see.

it's all good though, right?

Net result, business as usual.

[GostHacked]

Vancouver is populated with them.

Jewish Asians?

[jbg]

Jewish Asians?

Most Israelis are Jewish Asians.

[Rue]

Jewish Asians?

This can get confusing. Which kind of Japs are we talking about?

Sorry I could not resist. Spank moi. I know it was politically improper and sexist but come on

someone had to say it.

[jbg]

Which kind of Japs are we talking about?

Jewish American Princesses.