Creation

[CANADIEN]

Corrections. Consider it to be the alleged "word of God," as dictated by an angel who claim to be "Gabriel." I say "claim to be..." because really, how many angels are there?

Are we sure it's not one of the fallen "angels?"

Let,s return to what you said first, shall we? and I quote:

¨

The Muslim Koran makes no claims to being words from Allah. Rather

Muslims DO claim the Koran is the word of God as reveald to Mohammed through Gabriel. Put it simply, when you state that they do not view the Koran as the word of God, you are wrong. Again.

That I do not share their belief doesn't prevent me from knowing something as basic as that.

Edited August 14, 2011 by CANADIEN

[betsy]

Let,s return to what you said first, shall we? and I quote:

¨

Muslims DO claim the Koran is the word of God as reveald to Mohammed through Gabriel. Put it simply, when you state that they do not view the Koran as the word of God, you are wrong. Again.

That I do not share their belief doesn't prevent me from knowing something as basic as that.

Yes, the article that I posted seemed to have that wrong, for my other source did say that Muslims do claim the Koran to be the word of God. My mistake. I should've double-checked and made sure about the Koran. So, let's remove the Koran from the lists of other religions cited.

One aspect differentiating the Bible from other religious, historical or inspirational works is this: throughout the Bible, future events are predicted with verifiable accuracy.

The writings from the Far East, the teachings of Confucius, Buddhism and Hinduism do not even make a claim to be God’s word. They present to their followers a path to a simpler, more satisfactory life. The Muslim Koran makes no claims to being words from Allah. Rather it is the writing of Mohammed, a religious leader, his record of history as well as his desire for the future. But has any prophecy in the Koran come to pass?

Only the Christian Bible claims to be God’s very word to man and only the Bible contains the verifiable track record of prophetic fulfillment as evidence of its claims. Biblical prophecies are batting 1000. No other religious group or religious writings can make the same claim. (Bible references related to this article: Jeremiah 25.11, Daniel 9.1-5, John 1.1-5)

http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/churchandministry/evangelism/burns_godswords.aspx

There. Officially done.

However, that doesn't make any difference with the argument I'm having with MDancer, simply because there is implication The Koran's "Allah" is also The Bible's Jehovah.

Therefore, it doesn't change anything from the point I was making to MDancer.

Furthermore, there's a better response to MDancer's query with this latest update:

See that's the thing Betsy, if ID is valid, it wouldn't presume that the creator is jehovah....why can't ID allow other another god, or gods?

Now don't get me wrong, I reject ID as unscientific and merely creationism in disguise.

I reject creationism as superstitious nonsense that should be relegated to the camp fire along with ghost stories and meetings of other like minded spirit believers

Betsy:

Aside from the religious faith behind some ID scientists, why does the Christian God fit the role of the Intelligent Designer? You ask, why not other gods?

Perhaps it has something to do with the BIBLE?

Let me add something to this, MDancer. Yesss! It has something to do with the Bible!

FACT: MODERN WESTERN SCIENCE WAS FOUNDED UPON JUDEO-CHRISTIAN PRESUPPOSITIONAL FOUNDATIONS FROM THE BIBLE.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=18914&st=915

Edited August 14, 2011 by betsy

[g_bambino]

And?

Like I said, Christians took it.

Anyway, kidding aside....why do you think God gave the Jews a very strict Mosaic Law?

The question presumes a) I believe in a god I believe in the same god as you, and c) I believe it gave something to followers of the Jewish religion.

[+]

Edited August 14, 2011 by g_bambino

[g_bambino]

Put it simply, when you state that they do not view the Koran as the word of God, you are wrong. Again.

You do know that, when you point out betsy's ignorance, all she'll do is call you ignorant, right?

[betsy]

They had it first.

Betsy:

And?

Haven't you heard of the word, sharing?

Anyway, kidding aside....why do you think God gave the Jews a very strict Mosaic Law?

What do you think God's been prepping them for? What do you think was their "mission?"

I bet you don't know.

Betsy:

why do you think God gave the Jews a very strict Mosaic Law?

Bambino:

The question presumes a) I believe in a god I believe in the same god as you, and c) I believe it gave something to followers of the Jewish religion.

[+]

EHHH?

No, the question presumes that...

You're my evidence #B. Proving what I've said before, that, most so-called "critics" of the Bible don't know diddly squat about the Bible.

Either they're just winging it. Or repeating the same mush that they read from those who are winging it.

And you belong to the latter group. Under classification D.

"The parrots who can't get it right, even when they're only repeating it."

And I'm right. You don't know.

Edited August 14, 2011 by betsy

[g_bambino]

EHHH?

There, there, betsy. I know it's hard for you to follow along.

[betsy]

name='CANADIEN' date='14 August 2011 - 11:31 AM' Put it simply, when you state that they do not view the Koran as the word of God, you are wrong. Again.

You do know that, when you point out betsy's ignorance, all she'll do is call you ignorant, right?

Oh yeah...confer with your twin!

Maybe you could help each other out....I don't know who'll lead though. Rock, paper, scissor?

Edited August 14, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

I'm laughing my head off....don't take this personally, guys....we're just having fun!

I hope you are. Because I am!

[CANADIEN]

I'm laughing my head off....don't take this personally, guys....we're just having fun!

I hope you are. Because I am!

Don't worry. we are all having fun... at your expense.

[Saipan]

What that has to do with evolution or creation?

[dre]

They had it first.

Actually more of Christianity was stolen from the various pagan religions that were popular in Rome before the forced conversion.

The december 25 birthday.

The concept of a sacrificial savoir, and death and ressurection.

Communion with bread and wine.

Virgin birth.

The Sabbath (sunday).

All of these were taken from the pagan SunGod cult that was popular in in rome but especially in the military.

Edited August 15, 2011 by dre

[betsy]

Actually more of Christianity was stolen from the various pagan religions that were popular in Rome before the forced conversion.

The december 25 birthday.

The concept of a sacrificial savoir, and death and ressurection.

Communion with bread and wine.

Virgin birth.

The Sabbath (sunday).

All of these were taken from the pagan SunGod cult that was popular in in rome but especially in the military.

The following article is such a long detailed read. I just quoted the end part.

Excerpt from article: Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions?

By Ronal Nash

Christian Research Institute

........

SEVEN ARGUMENTS AGAINST CHRISTIAN DEPENDENCE ON THE MYSTERIES

I conclude by noting seven points that undermine liberal efforts to show that first-century Christianity borrowed essential beliefs and practices from the pagan mystery religions.

(1) Arguments offered to “prove” a Christian dependence on the mysteries illustrate the logical fallacy of false cause. This fallacy is committed whenever someone reasons that just because two things exist side by side, one of them must have caused the other. As we all should know, mere coincidence does not prove causal connection. Nor does similarity prove dependence.

(2) Many alleged similarities between Christianity and the mysteries are either greatly exaggerated or fabricated. Scholars often describe pagan rituals in language they borrow from Christianity. The careless use of language could lead one to speak of a “Last Supper” in Mithraism or a “baptism” in the cult of Isis. It is inexcusable nonsense to take the word “savior” with all of its New Testament connotations and apply it to Osiris or Attis as though they were savior-gods in any similar sense.

(3) The chronology is all wrong. Almost all of our sources of information about the pagan religions alleged to have influenced early Christianity are dated very late. We frequently find writers quoting from documents written 300 years later than Paul in efforts to produce ideas that allegedly influenced Paul. We must reject the assumption that just because a cult had a certain belief or practice in the third or fourth century after Christ, it therefore had the same belief or practice in the first century.

(4) Paul would never have consciously borrowed from the pagan religions. All of our information about him makes it highly unlikely that he was in any sense influenced by pagan sources. He placed great emphasis on his early training in a strict form of Judaism (Phil. 3:5). He warned the Colossians against the very sort of influence that advocates of Christian syncretism have attributed to him, namely, letting their minds be captured by alien speculations (Col. 2:8).

(5) Early Christianity was an exclusivistic faith. As J. Machen explains, the mystery cults were nonexclusive. “A man could become initiated into the mysteries of Isis or Mithras without at all giving up his former beliefs; but if he were to be received into the Church, according to the preaching of Paul, he must forsake all other Saviors for the Lord Jesus Christ....Amid the prevailing syncretism of the Greco-Roman world, the religion of Paul, with the religion of Israel, stands absolutely alone.”2’ This Christian exclusivism should be a starting point for all reflection about the possible relations between Christianity and its pagan competitors. Any hint of syncretism in the New Testament would have caused immediate controversy.

(6) Unlike the mysteries, the religion of Paul was grounded on events that actually happened in history. The mysticism of the mystery cults was essentially nonhistorical. Their myths were dramas, or pictures, of what the initiate went through, not real historical events, as Paul regarded Christ’s death and resurrection to be. The Christian affirmation that the death and resurrection of Christ happened to a historical person at a particular time and place has absolutely no parallel in any pagan mystery religion.

(7) What few parallels may still remain may reflect a Christian influ­ence on the pagan systems. As Bruce Metzger has argued, “It must not be uncritically assumed that the Mysteries always influenced Christianity, for it is not only possible but probable that in certain cases, the influence moved in the opposite direction.”22 It should not be surprising that leaders of cults that were being successfully challenged by Christianity should do something to counter the challenge. What better way to do this than by offering a pagan substitute? Pagan attempts to counter the growing influence of Christianity by imitating it are clearly apparent in measures instituted by Julian the Apostate, who was the Roman emperor from A.D. 361 to 363.

A FINAL WORD

Liberal efforts to undermine the uniqueness of the Christian revelation via claims of a pagan religious influence collapse quickly once a full account of the information is available. It is clear that the liberal arguments exhibit astoundingly bad scholarship. Indeed, this conclusion may be too generous. According to one writer, a more accurate account of these bad arguments would describe them as “prejudiced irresponsibility.”23 But in order to become completely informed on these matters, wise readers will work through material cited in the brief bibliography.

http://www.equip.org/articles/was-the-new-testament-influenced-by-pagan-religions-

[cybercoma]

If bad scholarship is prejudiced then the hypocritical writer of that piece is the worst scholar of all time.

[Saipan]

Actually more of Christianity was stolen from the various pagan religions that were popular in Rome before the forced conversion.

And that's evolution?

[dre]

The following article is such a long detailed read. I just quoted the end part.

Excerpt from article: Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions?

By Ronal Nash

Christian Research Institute

http://www.equip.org/articles/was-the-new-testament-influenced-by-pagan-religions-

Gotcha... so completely non-response.

[betsy]

Gotcha... so completely non-response.

You mean you don't like the response? Did you read the whole article?

Why don't you cite your source, and maybe we can discuss?

[cybercoma]

You mean you don't like the response? Did you read the whole article?

Why don't you cite your source, and maybe we can discuss?

The author argues that bad scholarship arises from prejudice, but is writing for the Christian Research Institute: bullet in the foot.

[Saipan]

Veeery scientific. Were all mammoths shot with a bullet?

[g_bambino]

Were all mammoths shot with a bullet?

No, they missed the Ark.

[betsy]

Oh that ark.

A lot of things are riding on that ark.

<singing Eagles' tune>

Deeeesperado....why don't you come to your senses....

Desperado, why don't you come to your senses

You've been out ridin' fences,

for so long - now.

Ohh you're a hard one.

I know that you've got your reasons.

These things that are pleasin'you

Can hurt you somehow.

Don't you draw the queen of diamonds boy

She'll beat you if she's able.

You know the queen of hearts is always your best bet.

Now it seems to me, some fine things

Have been laid upon your table.

But you only want the ones

That you can't get.

Desperado,

Ohhhh you aint getting no younger.

Your pain and your hunger,

They're driving you home.

And freedom, ohh freedom.

Well that's just some people talking.

Your prison is walking through this world all alone.

Don't your feet get cold in the winter time?

The sky won't snow and the sun will shine.

It's hard to tell the night time from the day.

And you're losing all your highs and lows

aint it funny how the feeling goes

away...

Desperado,

Why don't you come to your senses?

come down from your fences, open the gate.

It may be rainin', but there's a rainbow above you.

You better let somebody love you.

(let sombody love you)

You better let somebody love you...ohhh..hooo

before it's too..oooo.. late.

Edited August 19, 2011 by betsy

[g_bambino]

Oh that ark.

Where are the trilobites, betsy?

[Oleg Bach]

In the end - the creationists and the evolutionists will both stand empty handed - neither having total proof of anything. What's the useful point of this interchange that has been going on for 150 years?

[Oleg Bach]

Oh that ark.

A lot of things are riding on that ark.

<singing Eagles' tune>

Deeeesperado....why don't you come to your senses....

Desperado, why don't you come to your senses

You've been out ridin' fences,

for so long - now.

Ohh you're a hard one.

I know that you've got your reasons.

These things that are pleasin'you

Can hurt you somehow.

Don't you draw the queen of diamonds boy

She'll beat you if she's able.

You know the queen of hearts is always your best bet.

Now it seems to me, some fine things

Have been laid upon your table.

But you only want the ones

That you can't get.

Desperado,

Ohhhh you aint getting no younger.

Your pain and your hunger,

They're driving you home.

And freedom, ohh freedom.

Well that's just some people talking.

Your prison is walking through this world all alone.

Don't your feet get cold in the winter time?

The sky won't snow and the sun will shine.

It's hard to tell the night time from the day.

And you're losing all your highs and lows

aint it funny how the feeling goes

away...

Desperado,

Why don't you come to your senses?

come down from your fences, open the gate.

It may be rainin', but there's a rainbow above you.

You better let somebody love you.

(let sombody love you)

You better let somebody love you...ohhh..hooo

before it's too..oooo.. late.

At least the Desperado had an oringal thought and took the route of independence. Where as the bible thumpers ran their lives with a manual written by other men. God expects you to be daring - to be desperate - Desperados bring about healthy change - they dare to think - Bible thumpers dare not to have a mind of their own.....No one can stop a person from loving them...so the Desperado song is about some one sending love and being rejected - A Christain does not care about rejection - they love no matter what.

[Saipan]

No, they missed the Ark.

Funny name for a mammoth.

Btw, is it proven scientificaly?

Remember, a good prooof is when it's proven.

[dre]

You mean you don't like the response? Did you read the whole article?

Why don't you cite your source, and maybe we can discuss?

Your source didnt even touch on anything I said, and its justification for Christians adopting customs that had already been around for hundreds of years is laughable.