GWiz Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 Where were the rest of Canada's "troops" if this mission was more important? Doesn't Canada have intelligence collection and analysis capabilities? If not, why not? 1. Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
GWiz Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 Thats a misunderstanding, Khanadar had a very large contingent of troops before we arrived, Dutch, Americans, and other assorted troops far outnumbered Canada's contribution, today those numbers are roughly around 35,000 troops that share the same base....And while Pres Obama did re-inforce the area with addtional troops, there was already more americans than Canadians in Khanadar....Those extra 5000 were split between our area of operations and the British Area in the Hemland district. That is not what we have been briefed, the mission according to DND sources is still a Basic training Mission...however the exact location has not been chosen, because most of the established bases are full to capacity, no room for a training school and it's support staff, which means re supply will have to be done by road, as any other unit in Afghanistan.... Perhaps the misunderstanding is our current mission includes a combat battle group, a PRT (reconstruction team), and an Omlet which is an advanced training codray taking the Afghanis soldiers into Combat....3 missions roled into one... No initially our role was a combat role in Khanadar actually with the PPCLI battle group under American control.....it was this mission that wouls set the tone for previous missions. Canadians were assigned a role around Kabul not training but patroling around and trough the city...we replaced the Germans there as they pushed further north due to their caveats in place, in other words it got to warm their for them...and they left, we were the new kids, so we got slotted in .... Depending who you talk to your right Canada did stick up it's hand for the south, and we have lost alot of good men, but no more than any other fighting contingent, and a hell of alot less than we expected, I dont beleive that for a minute, Canadian intel is as good or better than most on the ground, DND knew exactly what was going on, and what it faced before getting into anything....It's all spelled out in serveral books, like i said depends which one you read, but they all have something in common it was not a con, they all went in eyes wide open..... It's never been about competion,it's about respect, when the shit hits the fan, and you here over the radio that the Canadians are rolling up on your postion, that news should be one of relief, not Shit not those guys again .....and we've accomplished that, to the piont were we have been requested... And it's all not about letting our fallen comrads down, finishing what they started, and could not complete, but also our allieds we owe them as well, our government decided to take on this role and now are up and leaving, that may work in governmental etho's but does not sit well with a soldier...then there is the Afghanis civilians, the same ones that we seen grow for the last 10 years, in doing our job it's is sometimes hard not to make promises....those promises will never be kept now.... Trust me we'd love to come home , but the jobs not done yet...and we've never walked out on any mission before...well until now... Well my friend, I can only say this, what I wrote is based both on what I read and what I know from other sources, VERY reliable sources with first hand knowledge... If as you indicate you're in theater I'll be the last one to argue with you... But, as you well know, when you're talking about a lot people, with a lot of levels of different responsibilities and experiences, there's a corresponding number of different opinions and viewpoints... Agreed? I therefore bow to your first hand knowledge of the situation, and your opinions of it... Keep your head down, shoot sraight, and ride the big bird home in style... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Esq Posted February 1, 2011 Author Report Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) The reputation i was talking about was our ability to take the fight to the enemy Taking the fight to the enemy is one thing, setting up camp in their back yard for 10 years is another. Also Canada never had nor did it ever loose this Capacity. Buying a few billion dollar jets could have been done without attacking afghanistan. Also Canada is still not that effective at force deployment as far as I am aware in a warzone. They need the US and British to clear the way. How many troops did it take to do that...and where they fighting an insurgency Sure they were fighting an insurgency. I'm not saying the generals are stupid but perhaps you can maybe take a hint at what works and what doesn't. Afghanistan Ain't Germany. Some of the same principles apply though. Failure by design is likely the answer. NATO isn't stupid, generals arn't stupid, but lying is. Going there and saying, we have a timeline and it may be a long timeline, it has nothing to do with anything but the timeline we want. I wouldn't be upset with that, I could respect that, but making up lies and just flubbing things and leading people into false impressions is something that doesn't perpetuate a good society. This is what insurgent warfare is all about, it only takes a few to tie up thousands...but then again your an expert... Saying you are ineffective at combating insurgencies isn't reputation building. No this is your opinion, one based on what exactly i don't know, perhaps you can explain....As for me i've done 3 tours in Afghan, and seen more than my share of Combat, Canadian soldiers have earned their reputation as some of the best fighting forces in the world, they've earned that through their blood, sweat, and tears....we've over come any and all obsticles put in our way, and for the most part we done it ourselfs.....I'm not asking you to take my word for it, do some research find out what our reputation is like, find out WTF your talking about ....goggle is a wonderful thing.... Is that world a coalition world? You know the only people you've likely had contact with. Attacking the honour of the forces ain't what this is about, but trying to shine up the glories of Afghanistan comes from a bats rear. No doubt you have the clout, and no doubt I have my opinion, the difference is, you are in the propaganda machine, I'm not. Who has the critical view. Not saying Canadians can't fight, but I am saying the whole way the war is being represented is corrupt. Just admit it is engineered, and isn't about "winning a war" It is about making this happen, and putting that person there, and getting people to do this, etc.. that is all it is.. it is imposition of foreign governance, trying to tilt the public view, because you guys don't like it. Even though it is the public will, you guys don't like it, so you are there changing the public capacity. That is all it is. It ain't about war, it is about imposition. Afghanistan ain't so big the war couldn't have been done right fast. I am not disillusioned in the halfarseness of the last 9 years in afghanistan. - and now pakistan and maybe down the road Iran. The thing that gets me, if it ain't a strong point - what it ends up being is either a puppet state, or a failed state or ---- well an enemy state when it goes right back to islamic fundamentalism or "baseline islamic belief" as the islamic world calls it. Honestly it is an embarsement when I think about it. Not because of what you guys are doing but because of what you havn't been able to do. I'm actually very PRO Canadian Military; however, I'm also blanatantly a realist in the overall image of the forces. Big enough to kill me, but one that really can't do much in a real war in their current form. And no Afghanistan ain't even a real "war". It is a bunch of the worlds biggest nations beating on a country in the middle of no where k. For 9+ years now because some bearded dude wasn't handed over illegally as was demanded.. sure that is it. Its ok if you can't see it you are suppose to have rose tinted glasses, or maybe just a narrow to the point view, for lack of better words. Its complex, but to say the least I'm not impressed I'm offended (as a result). Just way to much BS. And your glory be we are hero's junk is just that. Hero's in the fold of those who are blind, plain to see. While acts can be heroic in individual minds there is no heroism in error, it is a war lacking honour, a war lacking justice, and a war lacking morals. It is a disgrace on any heroic form. If heroism is measured in disgrace and folly, then blah blah blah. Shine it up no doubt. I'm not your enemy. I'm your result. If you see me as your enemy save me some time. I see it as ending an otherwise extended inaity in the form of a stupid world, with the people behind these things only perpetuating an ever greater awareness of that. You are the invader. Conquering is contradictory to modern western thought. Otherwise it is just bs. It ain't moral. End of story. People are allowed to have different values. Time is a funny thing. You only got so much of it to get things done. Seasons change, get a clue. If afghanistan was/is a threat to Canada in 2001 I'd like to see that information, I'd like to see how that threat has progressed or changed in weighing of other threats to Canada. I'd like to see that. Edited February 2, 2011 by Esq Quote
GWiz Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 Where were the rest of Canada's "troops" if this mission was more important? Doesn't Canada have intelligence collection and analysis capabilities? If not, why not? I thought Canada gave over it's "intelligence gathering" and "analysis capabilies" to you guys ages ago... Wasn't it YOU who told me that? Aren't we nothing but your little "puppets? Didn't you tell us Canadians don't matter? What "rest"? A lie, is a lie, is a lie... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
GWiz Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 Taking the fight to the enemy is one thing, setting up camp in their back yard for 10 years is another. Also Canada never had nor did it ever loose this Capacity. Buying a few billion dollar jets could have been done without attacking afghanistan. Also Canada is still not that effective at force deployment as far as I am aware in a warzone. They need the US and British to clear the way. Sure they were fighting an insurgency. I'm not saying the generals are stupid but perhaps you can maybe take a hint at what works and what doesn't. Afghanistan Ain't Germany. Some of the same principles apply though. Failure by design is likely the answer. NATO isn't stupid, generals arn't stupid, but lying is. Going there and saying, we have a timeline and it may be a long timeline, it has nothing to do with anything but the timeline we want. I wouldn't be upset with that, I could respect that, but making up lies and just flubbing things and leading people into false impressions is something that doesn't perpetuate a good society. Saying you are ineffective at combating insurgencies isn't reputation building. Is that world a coalition world? You know the only people you've likely had contact with. Attacking the honour of the forces ain't what this is about, but trying to shine up the glories of Afghanistan comes from a bats rear. No doubt you have the clout, and no doubt I have my opinion, the difference is, you are in the propaganda machine, I'm not. Who has the critical view. Not saying Canadians can't fight, but I am saying the whole way the war is being represented is corrupt. Just admit it is engineered, and isn't about "winning a war" It is about making this happen, and putting that person there, and getting people to do this, etc.. that is all it is.. it is imposition of foreign governance, trying to tilt the public view, because you guys don't like it. Even though it is the public will, you guys don't like it, so you are there changing the public capacity. That is all it is. It ain't about war, it is about imposition. Afghanistan ain't so big the war couldn't have been done right fast. I am not disillusioned in the halfarseness of the last 9 years in afghanistan. - and now pakistan and maybe down the road Iran. The thing that gets me, if it ain't a strong point - what it ends up being is either a puppet state, or a failed state or ---- well an enemy state when it goes right back to islamic fundamentalism or "basline islamic belief" as the islamic world calls it. Honestly it is an embarsement when I think about it. Not because of what you guys are doing but because of what you havn't been able to do. I'm actually very PRO Canadian Military; however, I'm also blanatantly a realist in the overall image of the forces. Big enough to kill me, but one that really can't do much in a real war in their current form. And no Afghanistan ain't even a real "war". It is a bunch of the worlds biggest nations beating on a country in the middle of no where k. For 9+ years now because some bearded dude wasn't handed over illegally as was demanded.. sure that is it. Its ok if you can't see it you are suppose to have rose tinted glasses, or maybe just a narrow to the point view, for lack of better words. Its complex, but to say the least I'm not impressed I'm offended (as a result). Just way to much BS. And your glory be we are hero's junk is just that. Hero's in the fold of those who are blind, plain to see. While acts can be heroic in individual minds there is no heroism in error, it is a war lacking honour, a war lacking justice, and a war lacking morals. It is a disgrace on any heroic form. If heroism is measured in disgrace and folly, then blah blah blah. Shine it up no doubt. I'm not your enemy. I'm your result. If you see me as your enemy save me some time. I see it as ending an otherwise extended inaity in the form of a stupid world, with the people behind these things only perpetuating an ever greater awareness of that. You are the invader. Conquering is contradictory to modern western thought. Otherwise it is just bs. It ain't moral. End of story. People are allowed to have different values. Time is a funny thing. You only got so much of it to get things done. Seasons change, get a clue. If afghanistan was/is a threat to Canada in 2001 I'd like to see that information, I'd like to see how that threat has progressed or changed in weighing of other threats to Canada. I'd like to see that. Excellent post, except, perhaps, aimed at the wrong person, those shots should be aimed UP not down, if you catch my drift... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
GWiz Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 NATO is NOT leaving Afghansitan in 2014. A NATO senior civilian rep. in Afghainstan Mark Sedwell, said in a press conference with Finnish Foreign Minister. He said this will not end NATO's operations in Afghanistan but the beginning of a new phrase campaign. NATO will stay as long as they are needed or required. So the question is, were does this affect Canada'a soldiers? Is the PM well aware of this? http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-01/26/c_13706930.htm Yes, in spades... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Army Guy Posted February 3, 2011 Report Posted February 3, 2011 ESQ: Taking the fight to the enemy is one thing, setting up camp in their back yard for 10 years is another. Also Canada never had nor did it ever loose this Capacity. How long we were in Germany, Cyprus, Yugo, again, Maybe you should check your history once more....As for Canada having the ability to take the fight to the enemy, i think you should check on Canada's military TO&E even up into the late 50's...it might surprise you. 4 th largest navy in the world, which included Aircraft Carriers, and Amb landing craft, and an airforce, and army to match.... Buying a few billion dollar jets could have been done without attacking afghanistan. Everything that DND has purchased to date has got AFGHAN written all over it...how much extra funding do you really think DND would have recieved if it had not been engaged in a conflict.... Also Canada is still not that effective at force deployment as far as I am aware in a warzone. They need the US and British to clear the way. Canada's military force struture now has that capability built into it, it may not be large but it is capable of kicking in the door, and sustaining a small force.... Sure they were fighting an insurgency. I'm not saying the generals are stupid but perhaps you can maybe take a hint at what works and what doesn't. Afghanistan Ain't Germany. The germans may have been fighting a small insurgency in reagrds to partisans, but the allieds, no sir, they knew exactly who was the bad guys and who was not.... Maybe it is that you don't understand just how difficult insurgent warfare is, or can be...when the enemy is not clearly indentifiable or does not conform to the Genva conventions they have a huge advantage....one that is not insurmountable but it does take more time and effort to defeat. NATO isn't stupid, generals arn't stupid, but lying is.Going there and saying, we have a timeline and it may be a long timeline, it has nothing to do with anything but the timeline we want. Really, now thats BS, our entire country is built around fast food and fast results, and expected nothing less with this operation. DND has been foreth coming since the start of this operation, it told the Government from day one it was a bad idea, and it would be a protracted campaign....but it decided to go anyways...you need to see our liberal leadership on that reason.... This is what insurgent warfare is all about, it only takes a few to tie up thousands...but then again your an expert...Saying you are ineffective at combating insurgencies isn't reputation building. Thats not waht i said at all, i said IN insurgent warfare a few bad guys could tie up a few thousand troops .....at no time did i say we are not ineffective, in fact the exact opposite is true....we are very effective, I'm not sure what your using to keep score, or measure success by the sound of it , and in your opinion it is by the amount of time we are deployed in the field.....but what your failing to see is what we are doing in that time, rebuilding a nation takes decades, Germany/Japan did not just over night become a success it is today, Afghanistan is troubled by the fact there is terrorist numbering in the thousands that are determined the country reverts back to the stone ages.....and while all this is going on you can not tell me that the country is not moving forward and making progress... Attacking the honour of the forces ain't what this is about, but trying to shine up the glories of Afghanistan comes from a bats rear. You'll have to excuse me if i thought you were not attacking the honor of the forces, and the men and women who served there, but the tone and direction of your posts are hitting the wrong targets....99.9% percent of those Canadain soldiers involved in the Afghanistan conflict have conducted themselfs as world class warriors who have brought peace were there was none, and brought law and order were none existed, they have left a legacy that any Canadian sitizen should be proud of...and for the most part they've done it with out the majority of Canadians support.... So you have to excuse me when the hairs in the back of my neck go up, when i hear of someone complaining about what is or what is not going on in Afghanistan. Country is full of critics, but short on volunteers....And while i do have issues with how our government has handled this entire mission, how our most of our media reported on it from behind the wire, and how critical canadians became when straved of the truth...but i don't understand how any of that could be pinned on our soldiers backs of responsibility....we have carryied out every tasking, every mission, with huge successes, we've gone above and beyond what any military force has been asked, picked up other depts slack, and even filled in on the diplomatic side as well....Afghanistan problems has some how translated into give it to the army....and we've done them all...most of which are models today for the entire NATO contingent.... In my books that not barking out a bats ass, thats just fact, recorded fact thats in the history books. No doubt you have the clout, and no doubt I have my opinion, the difference is, you are in the propaganda machine, I'm not. Your right, we both have an opinion, and from where your sitting i'm part of the green machine, a tool, a pawn spewing propaganda....only difference being is i've been there, i've lived through the very topics we are engaged with i've seen government policy in action, i've seen the lack of policy as well, i've also seen the media briefs in person, then read the stories the next day in the press....not even close my friend.....So your as much as part of that machine as i am,maybe one day we'll all sit down and agree to meet in the middle.... So i do understand your furstrations, i do, i've got tones of them myself, some of them are pionted towards Canadian citizens....but we all learn to live with our ghosts.... Honestly it is an embarsement when I think about it. Not because of what you guys are doing but because of what you havn't been able to do. I'm actually very PRO Canadian Military; however, I'm also blanatantly a realist in the overall image of the forces. Big enough to kill me, but one that really can't do much in a real war in their current form. Are you f88king kidding me an embarsement, because we can't find one bearded guy named bin ladin, you are aware of the current geo polictics of the area, your aware Pakistan is off limits, and thats were these guys go and hide until fatten up to fight the next season....kind of like willy coyote and the sheep dog .....you think we made those rules...that the military wrote our rules of engagement... And no Afghanistan ain't even a real "war". It is a bunch of the worlds biggest nations beating on a country in the middle of no where k. For 9+ years now because some bearded dude wasn't handed over illegally as was demanded.. sure that is it. Its ok if you can't see it you are suppose to have rose tinted glasses, or maybe just a narrow to the point view, for lack of better words. You can call it what ever you want, all i know is when i left the camp my wpns were loaded with a full war load, and when i returned to camp, they were empty most of the time....that those comrads shot, blown up, were still dead as shit....and those bad guys didn't fair out as well as we did even on thier best day.....as for the rose tinted glasses, well they quickly tarished after around my 3 day of combat, and hav;nt been rose colored for some time now....no this mission is more than some bearded prick hiding out in Pakistan, it's more than allowing little girls go to school, the reason that most Canadian soldier keep coming back is the people....it's about basic human rights, it's about giving some men and women that have suffered through 30 plus years of war alittle taste of peace, to give them some hope that thier children will not have to live throught that....and if that means i've got to kill a few bearded pricks, bleed over some rocks , and hand them over some of our tax dollars then so be it....I think the end justifies the means ....at the end of the day what did it cost you....i think we have already worked this out, each tax payer approx 20 dollars a year.....Shit i give more than that to the MADD, which gives out less results... Just way to much BS. And your glory be we are hero's junk is just that. Hero's in the fold of those who are blind, plain to see.While acts can be heroic in individual minds there is no heroism in error, it is a war lacking honour, a war lacking justice, and a war lacking morals. It is a disgrace on any heroic form. If heroism is measured in disgrace and folly, then blah blah blah. I dont' post on here looking for pats on the back, or for someone to buy me a beer, or pump sun shine up my ass....i post here to correct some of the myths and misunderstandings about our military and the Afghan war...hence why i replied to your post....as it is full of both.... Like i've said it's your opinion, and it's your right to whine and bitch about something that you dislike, and like your self i also have those rights , i also have an opinion, unlike yours i think we as a nation have alot to offer Afghanistan, we life in a nation of plenty, and it costs us very little to bring about change in a nation that really needs it....if thats an error then your moral values are different than mine....if it is un honourable to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough then yes i'm unhonourable.... All war is lacking honour, glory,morals and justice it is the very nature of the beast, something man has come very accustomed to and very good at....thinking this one would be any different tells alot about those whine about it.....But we are not talking about the men and women who have answered this nations call, and stood the line and carried out the mission that once had the majority of approval amongs't Canadians....no you sir, have a bone to grind with our leadership of this nation....and yet include in your slag those soldiers for doing a job that our government and Canadians wanted them to do.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
GWiz Posted February 3, 2011 Report Posted February 3, 2011 ESQ: How long we were in Germany, Cyprus, Yugo, again, Maybe you should check your history once more....As for Canada having the ability to take the fight to the enemy, i think you should check on Canada's military TO&E even up into the late 50's...it might surprise you. 4 th largest navy in the world, which included Aircraft Carriers, and Amb landing craft, and an airforce, and army to match.... Everything that DND has purchased to date has got AFGHAN written all over it...how much extra funding do you really think DND would have recieved if it had not been engaged in a conflict.... Canada's military force struture now has that capability built into it, it may not be large but it is capable of kicking in the door, and sustaining a small force.... The germans may have been fighting a small insurgency in reagrds to partisans, but the allieds, no sir, they knew exactly who was the bad guys and who was not.... Maybe it is that you don't understand just how difficult insurgent warfare is, or can be...when the enemy is not clearly indentifiable or does not conform to the Genva conventions they have a huge advantage....one that is not insurmountable but it does take more time and effort to defeat. Really, now thats BS, our entire country is built around fast food and fast results, and expected nothing less with this operation. DND has been foreth coming since the start of this operation, it told the Government from day one it was a bad idea, and it would be a protracted campaign....but it decided to go anyways...you need to see our liberal leadership on that reason.... Thats not waht i said at all, i said IN insurgent warfare a few bad guys could tie up a few thousand troops .....at no time did i say we are not ineffective, in fact the exact opposite is true....we are very effective, I'm not sure what your using to keep score, or measure success by the sound of it , and in your opinion it is by the amount of time we are deployed in the field.....but what your failing to see is what we are doing in that time, rebuilding a nation takes decades, Germany/Japan did not just over night become a success it is today, Afghanistan is troubled by the fact there is terrorist numbering in the thousands that are determined the country reverts back to the stone ages.....and while all this is going on you can not tell me that the country is not moving forward and making progress... You'll have to excuse me if i thought you were not attacking the honor of the forces, and the men and women who served there, but the tone and direction of your posts are hitting the wrong targets....99.9% percent of those Canadain soldiers involved in the Afghanistan conflict have conducted themselfs as world class warriors who have brought peace were there was none, and brought law and order were none existed, they have left a legacy that any Canadian sitizen should be proud of...and for the most part they've done it with out the majority of Canadians support.... So you have to excuse me when the hairs in the back of my neck go up, when i hear of someone complaining about what is or what is not going on in Afghanistan. Country is full of critics, but short on volunteers....And while i do have issues with how our government has handled this entire mission, how our most of our media reported on it from behind the wire, and how critical canadians became when straved of the truth...but i don't understand how any of that could be pinned on our soldiers backs of responsibility....we have carryied out every tasking, every mission, with huge successes, we've gone above and beyond what any military force has been asked, picked up other depts slack, and even filled in on the diplomatic side as well....Afghanistan problems has some how translated into give it to the army....and we've done them all...most of which are models today for the entire NATO contingent.... In my books that not barking out a bats ass, thats just fact, recorded fact thats in the history books. Your right, we both have an opinion, and from where your sitting i'm part of the green machine, a tool, a pawn spewing propaganda....only difference being is i've been there, i've lived through the very topics we are engaged with i've seen government policy in action, i've seen the lack of policy as well, i've also seen the media briefs in person, then read the stories the next day in the press....not even close my friend.....So your as much as part of that machine as i am,maybe one day we'll all sit down and agree to meet in the middle.... So i do understand your furstrations, i do, i've got tones of them myself, some of them are pionted towards Canadian citizens....but we all learn to live with our ghosts.... Are you f88king kidding me an embarsement, because we can't find one bearded guy named bin ladin, you are aware of the current geo polictics of the area, your aware Pakistan is off limits, and thats were these guys go and hide until fatten up to fight the next season....kind of like willy coyote and the sheep dog .....you think we made those rules...that the military wrote our rules of engagement... You can call it what ever you want, all i know is when i left the camp my wpns were loaded with a full war load, and when i returned to camp, they were empty most of the time....that those comrads shot, blown up, were still dead as shit....and those bad guys didn't fair out as well as we did even on thier best day.....as for the rose tinted glasses, well they quickly tarished after around my 3 day of combat, and hav;nt been rose colored for some time now....no this mission is more than some bearded prick hiding out in Pakistan, it's more than allowing little girls go to school, the reason that most Canadian soldier keep coming back is the people....it's about basic human rights, it's about giving some men and women that have suffered through 30 plus years of war alittle taste of peace, to give them some hope that thier children will not have to live throught that....and if that means i've got to kill a few bearded pricks, bleed over some rocks , and hand them over some of our tax dollars then so be it....I think the end justifies the means ....at the end of the day what did it cost you....i think we have already worked this out, each tax payer approx 20 dollars a year.....Shit i give more than that to the MADD, which gives out less results... I dont' post on here looking for pats on the back, or for someone to buy me a beer, or pump sun shine up my ass....i post here to correct some of the myths and misunderstandings about our military and the Afghan war...hence why i replied to your post....as it is full of both.... Like i've said it's your opinion, and it's your right to whine and bitch about something that you dislike, and like your self i also have those rights , i also have an opinion, unlike yours i think we as a nation have alot to offer Afghanistan, we life in a nation of plenty, and it costs us very little to bring about change in a nation that really needs it....if thats an error then your moral values are different than mine....if it is un honourable to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough then yes i'm unhonourable.... All war is lacking honour, glory,morals and justice it is the very nature of the beast, something man has come very accustomed to and very good at....thinking this one would be any different tells alot about those whine about it.....But we are not talking about the men and women who have answered this nations call, and stood the line and carried out the mission that once had the majority of approval amongs't Canadians....no you sir, have a bone to grind with our leadership of this nation....and yet include in your slag those soldiers for doing a job that our government and Canadians wanted them to do.... You, hopefully are aware that, as you say, the Media plays a big part in perception... When the media reports a "Another NATO soldier died in Khandahar" they make it sound like the death occured in a city not out in some no-man's land because you had to go see some village elder... What's more, when Khandahar and NATO (at least before the "surge") were mentioned together every Canadian knew it was another Canadian soldier that was killed... As you know from my previous posts I strongly support the "troops", but unlike you, I no longer support the mission, in whatever form that mission takes... I think the majority of Canadians feel exactly as I do about that... It's simply taken too long to this point and if ordinary Afghanis haven't figured out that they're better off NOW (10 years later) than when you went in, aren't helping and protecting YOU, with pitchforks if necessary and certainly with information, against the Taliban, nothing will change... Nuff said... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
Army Guy Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 You, hopefully are aware that, as you say, the Media plays a big part in perception... When the media reports a "Another NATO soldier died in Khandahar" they make it sound like the death occured in a city not out in some no-man's land because you had to go see some village elder... What's more, when Khandahar and NATO (at least before the "surge") were mentioned together every Canadian knew it was another Canadian soldier that was killed... As much as i'd like to blame the media, most of this falls on our government, they should have continued to spell out the message they wanted Canadians to here, until everyone was reading off the same sheet of music. And they failed miserably. Just so we are clear, in Afghan there is Khandar city, which is were the main base is, which even when we first got there consisted of over 15,000 troops from over 20 different nations, today that same base houses over 35,000 coalition troops....is home to a major airbase, helo port, support elements,and different battle groups of ground troops..... Khandar is also the name of the ditrict in which is the Canadian area of operations, an area larger than PEI, and we share patroling of it with the Dutch, and other smaller contingents.....that being said we also had some of the british AO in the Hemland district..... I mention that because i get the impresion that everyone thinks it's just the Canadians in Khandar , not true our 3300 troops share the base with over 32.000 other troops....and when the media talks about khandar it's not just the city it's the district.... It's simply taken too long to this point and if ordinary Afghanis haven't figured out that they're better off NOW (10 years later) than when you went in, aren't helping and protecting YOU, with pitchforks if necessary and certainly with information, against the Taliban, nothing will change... There is the rub, one advantage of not playing by the rules or conventions, is they can sneak into town during the night, kill a few locals make death threats and leave that same night....continue this every couple of weeks and soon you have the locals scare stiff....Since NATO does not have enough troops to accomplish this or establish Camps, for protection the bad guys had free reign....remember our Battle group was only 2200 troops, and had to patrol the area the size of PEI.... with the Surge as you put it, NATO has been building more and more camps providing the protection the citizens need....allowing them more freedom to pass on info on were to find these guys....and to destroy them....It's not that the people don't want to help or provide us with the intel, it's their lifes that are at stake...and trust me we'd all do anything we could to protect our families.....and i do mean anything....Blaming them is not the answer either...as furstrating as that is...it's a Taliban tactic and it works....Fear is a very powerful motivator....one that we can't use...except on the bad guys... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
bloodyminded Posted February 4, 2011 Report Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) ...and trust me we'd all do anything we could to protect our families.....and i do mean anything....Blaming them is not the answer either... I agree. Blaming the Afghan people for not "stepping up" as we might wish them to is not only unfair, it's a cruel-minded way of seeing things. Like those, such as Richard Perle, who have called the Iraqis "ingrates".... Edited February 4, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Esq Posted February 5, 2011 Author Report Posted February 5, 2011 (edited) ESQ: How long we were in Germany, Was Canada in Germany? It didn't have an occupation zone like France, Britain and the United States did it? Cyprus, What happened in cyprus? Yugo What is yugoslavia? Right right --- this is a tough one to answer. Never. Or well maybe that is a fog of war and propaganda. I've heard various stories on this and the actions canada did or didn't take. This is a problematic conflict. Maybe you can give the answer on this? , again, Maybe you should check your history once more....As for Canada having the ability to take the fight to the enemy, Canada was a support force, support force, Yugoslavia as a whole could have pummled Canada if they were neighbours. Canada is a light weight military with its strucutre for the last 20 or 30 years. Force yes, world leading force no. Don't disallusion yourself. While Canada is capable of being fiersome the approaches taken do not provide for that. i think you should check on Canada's military TO&E even up into the late 50's...it might surprise you. 4 th largest navy in the world, My father was in the Navy I'm well aware of canada's military even their aircraft carrier. which included Aircraft Carriers, and Amb landing craft, and an airforce, and army to match.... I'm well aware of Canada's military history. My grandfather father and brother have all been associated with the military in some way. Everything that DND has purchased to date has got AFGHAN written all over it...how much extra funding do you really think DND would have recieved if it had not been engaged in a conflict.... This is what if. It would get as much funding as it was given. The purchases seem to be in part frivilous and based on what expensive US equipment is needed to be purchased. I don't see much more in it than that. I don't see why you would put all your eggs into a large lift aircraft unless unless you also wanted a tank or two somewhere .. but in a domestic sense why not just buy a 100 tanks and spread them out across the country? and forget about the heavy lift? Now canada has a few tanks? and a few planes? that's not going to stop an army, sorry. It is sad. Riot control maybe but why even bother? I'd rather have tanks you can parachute than tanks that need a plane to land them. You arn't going to have an airfeild in a real war. It will be support forces.. fact is I'd rather bomb the hell out of the enemy than fight them on the ground in a real war. I'm not into occupation I'd rather lay waste. Canada's military force struture now has that capability built into it, it may not be large but it is capable of kicking in the door, and sustaining a small force.... a small force ain't gonna do anything in a real war unless it manages to take out a comand structure, real countries arn't going to have their command centralized in a lightly defended area next to an airfield that can be taken easily. There is a certain amout of what if here.. that cameras would have to be rolling for.. however I'm much more in belief of level them and see if anything is moving than send in people and occupy the people. Who cares about the people if you kill anything with a gun who cares about who is in countrol. It will be by mutual consent if everyone with a gun is dead. The germans may have been fighting a small insurgency in reagrds to partisans, but the allieds, no sir, they knew exactly who was the bad guys and who was not.... sure there. there were good and bad guys on both sides just like now. Maybe it is that you don't understand just how difficult insurgent warfare is, or can be...when the enemy is not clearly indentifiable or does not conform to the Genva conventions they have a huge advantage....one that is not insurmountable but it does take more time and effort to defeat. Insurgent warfare is playing to guerilla demands and is a waste of money. Crush them and let them opt to keep rebuilding or be peaceful. They arn't going anywhere with a destoryed nation. Threat removed. Really, now thats BS, our entire country is built around fast food and fast results, and expected nothing less with this operation. DND has been foreth coming since the start of this operation, it told the Government from day one it was a bad idea, and it would be a protracted campaign....but it decided to go anyways...you need to see our liberal leadership on that reason.... well atleast we agree on one thing, it was a bad idea. Thats not waht i said at all, i said IN insurgent warfare a few bad guys could tie up a few thousand troops .....at no time did i say we are not ineffective, I didn't imply that but I'll let that go. in fact the exact opposite is true.... we are very effective, I'm not sure what your using to keep score, or measure success by the sound of it would you blame me if I said a clock? , and in your opinion it is by the amount of time we are deployed in the field.....but what your failing to see is what we are doing in that time, rebuilding a nation takes decades, So let them do it? Go democracy of the citizens of that country. Germany/Japan did not just over night become a success it is today, Afghanistan is troubled by the fact there is terrorist numbering in the thousands that are determined the country reverts back to the stone ages.....and while all this is going on you can not tell me that the country is not moving forward and making progress... They would have built themselves back up just fine on their own. Japanese and germans are like that, resourceful. The russians right the russians. Who knows there were alternatives the choice taken in history is not the only choice, it is the only choice that is available now. You'll have to excuse me if i thought you were not attacking the honor of the forces, and the men and women who served there, but the tone and direction of your posts are hitting the wrong targets....99.9% percent of those Canadain soldiers involved in the Afghanistan conflict have conducted themselfs as world class warriors who have brought peace were there was none, and brought law and order were none existed, they have left a legacy that any Canadian sitizen should be proud of...and for the most part they've done it with out the majority of Canadians support.... You are entitled to your view. I can't comment on what I don't see, only what I hear about. Maybe more of them should be here to explain, or is that in black lines on a page. So you have to excuse me when the hairs in the back of my neck go up, when i hear of someone complaining about what is or what is not going on in Afghanistan. Country is full of critics, but short on volunteers.... I'm not medically eligible. And while i do have issues with how our government has handled this entire mission, how our most of our media reported on it from behind the wire, and how critical canadians became when straved of the truth...but i don't understand how any of that could be pinned on our soldiers backs of responsibility....we have carryied out every tasking, every mission, with huge successes, we've gone above and beyond what any military force has been asked, picked up other depts slack, and even filled in on the diplomatic side as well....Afghanistan problems has some how translated into give it to the army....and we've done them all...most of which are models today for the entire NATO contingent.... Hey I dunno what command is doing. I don't know what is pulling the strings, NATO command, the queen, the govenror general the PM the cheif of defence, the commander in field, the masons, illuminati, black nobles, al qaeda, elvis presley - I really don't know. It is easy for an arm chair general to say, you pathetic weenies, I woul of had iran russia and china under my power after 10 years with the power of NATO behind me... lets get real here, I just see 10 years in afghanistan to be a form of failure by design. I have a higher view of NATO than they have done over the last 10 years. This wasn't a war, ISAF (international security assistance force) not (INTERNATIONAL KILLERS OF THE OTHER GUYS FORCE) IKOTOGF. It is just a weak mission, and I don't like it. I'm more the type that would think killing anything that moves with guns is a more effective strategy doing it in a month and calling it a day. In my books that not barking out a bats ass, thats just fact, recorded fact thats in the history books. Your right, we both have an opinion, and from where your sitting i'm part of the green machine, a tool, a pawn spewing propaganda....only difference being is i've been there, i've lived through the very topics we are engaged with i've seen government policy in action, i've seen the lack of policy as well, i've also seen the media briefs in person, then read the stories the next day in the press....not even close my friend.....So your as much as part of that machine as i am,maybe one day we'll all sit down and agree to meet in the middle.... I don't believe anyone, not even myself. I'm right now. You may ask what basis I have, and that is simply to promote the best option from all information, not just one piece of information. Every posibility is no posibility. So i do understand your furstrations, i do, i've got tones of them myself, some of them are pionted towards Canadian citizens....but we all learn to live with our ghosts....Are you f88king kidding me an embarsement, because we can't find one bearded guy named bin ladin, you are aware of the current geo polictics of the area, your aware Pakistan is off limits, and thats were these guys go and hide until fatten up to fight the next season....kind of like willy coyote and the sheep dog .....you think we made those rules...that the military wrote our rules of engagement... why did they write them that way you might ask. Like I said failure by design. You can call it what ever you want, all i know is when i left the camp my wpns were loaded with a full war load, and when i returned to camp, they were empty most of the time....that those comrads shot, blown up, were still dead as shit....and those bad guys didn't fair out as well as we did even on thier best day.....as for the rose tinted glasses, well they quickly tarished after around my 3 day of combat, and hav;nt been rose colored for some time now....no this mission is more than some bearded prick hiding out in Pakistan, it's more than allowing little girls go to school, the reason that most Canadian soldier keep coming back is the people....it's about basic human rights, it's about giving some men and women that have suffered through 30 plus years of war alittle taste of peace, to give them some hope that thier children will not have to live throught that....and if that means i've got to kill a few bearded pricks, bleed over some rocks , and hand them over some of our tax dollars then so be it....I think the end justifies the means ....at the end of the day what did it cost you....i think we have already worked this out, each tax payer approx 20 dollars a year.....Shit i give more than that to the MADD, which gives out less results... I'm not brought to militancy over other peoples sovreignty. I beleive in self destination. I think our own backyard and frontyard and house need fixing so its not me to go and say other people have it all wrong. The country I'm forced to live in doesn't have it right, so why should I go with a gun to someones head forcing them to change their way, when the gun would be better served by pointing it to my forced fellow country mans head. That just isn't applicable that is why I feel democracy and deliberation and communication is essential to peace. Setting up the standard of militant enforcement of rule isn't going to deradicalize it is going to kill people that feel strongly about something. Canada ain't perfect. Afghanistan is one of the things that makes it imperfect. I dont' post on here looking for pats on the back, or for someone to buy me a beer, or pump sun shine up my ass....i post here to correct some of the myths and misunderstandings about our military and the Afghan war...hence why i replied to your post....as it is full of both....Like i've said it's your opinion, and it's your right to whine and bitch about something that you dislike, and like your self i also have those rights , i also have an opinion, unlike yours i think we as a nation have alot to offer Afghanistan, we life in a nation of plenty, and it costs us very little to bring about change in a nation that really needs it....if thats an error then your moral values are different than mine....if it is un honourable to draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough then yes i'm unhonourable.... We can see I'm not the one handing out medals, but if I was I'd probably be looking for another war and another mission to hand them out to. I don't have the information to indicate to me that it is a wise war. That is the bottom line here. All war is lacking honour, glory,morals and justice it is the very nature of the beast, something man has come very accustomed to and very good at....thinking this one would be any different tells alot about those whine about it.....But we are not talking about the men and women who have answered this nations call, and stood the line and carried out the mission that once had the majority of approval amongs't Canadians....no you sir, have a bone to grind with our leadership of this nation....and yet include in your slag those soldiers for doing a job that our government and Canadians wanted them to do.... I was in opposition to the war from very early on. I had my own opinion for what happened with 911 and havn't touted the media line from day one for very strong reasons. That is having supposed inside knowledge at the time with what had occured. It is nonsense talk to have anyone support me in that opinion it just paints me as a crazy, the bottom line is I was taking very close note in the days leading up to 911 and the time leading up to the invasion. I was someone who took a demonstrative position to the war. Not because Canadian soilders were wrong, but because Canada was wrong. Not supporting a war is not the same as not supporting people as humans. Not supporting a nation for its choices to wage war against another nation is a consciencous objection. I'm not proud of it, and I'm not in defence of it. I am in support of human rights for all people, but I beleive in self determination of society. I beleive in the right to remove onesself from society (or found your own society or state)-- even if Canadian law doesn't allow it. I pursued those options the bottom line is I can only do what I feel is right in exercising what I think is right. If that includes criticising a war I don't agree in, and am forced to be a member of the soceity perpetuating it... I'll clearly voice my opinion I'm not in support of it, even if a majority of people are. The majority is not me. I am an individual forced to be a member of a society from their perspective. That is not freedom. You can opt to fight a war half way across the world, that is your choice. I just don't think it should be a national war if it isn't required for Canadian defence. I havn't been convinced. Edited February 5, 2011 by Esq Quote
Army Guy Posted February 7, 2011 Report Posted February 7, 2011 My father was in the Navy I'm well aware of canada's military even their aircraft carrier.I'm well aware of Canada's military history. My grandfather father and brother have all been associated with the military in some way. For a guy who has quoted he is well aware of Canada's military history, because his grandfather, father, and brother has served in the military . You seem like you lack some very basic knowledge about our Nations defense dept. Was Canada in Germany, yes it was, in fact we pulled out of Germany in 1992, as a cost savings measure....i'll let you do the math on how long we were there for. Did we have an occupation zone, no we were part of the British zone, and during the course of our stay we filled in were needed. Cyprus was a peacekeeping mission/ nation building that lasted over 25 years, and is still ongoing...as for Yugo it as well was a peacekeeping,peacemaking/nation building mission, that canada was involved in for more than 20 years....it to is still ongoing....my piont is nation building is not a quick process, it requires generations to complete..... Was Canada in Germany? It didn't have an occupation zone like France, Britain and the United States did it?What happened in cyprus? Canada is a light weight military with its strucutre for the last 20 or 30 years. Force yes, world leading force no. Don't disallusion yourself. While Canada is capable of being fiersome the approaches taken do not provide for that. Sorry, but were do you get your facts from, re check your facts and you'll find Canada just in the last 10 years or so went from a heavy mech force, to a middle wieght force , mostly do to the fact it was cheaper to maintain.... As for the disallision , why is it that our military forces are in such demand, from other nations around the globe when a new mission comes around....or a postion opens up on an old one...your lack of knowledge about our forces is really starting to show... This is what if. It would get as much funding as it was given. No this is a huge what if...Had Afghanistan not come along and our true military status not been uncovered DND would have continued on its course, which was to be a source of funding for other depts and governmental ideas... The purchases seem to be in part frivilous and based on what expensive US equipment is needed to be purchased. I don't see much more in it than that. I don't see why you would put all your eggs into a large lift aircraft unless unless you also wanted a tank or two somewhere .. but in a domestic sense why not just buy a 100 tanks and spread them out across the country? and forget about the heavy lift? Now canada has a few tanks? and a few planes? that's not going to stop an army, sorry. It is sad. Riot control maybe but why even bother? I'd rather have tanks you can parachute than tanks that need a plane to land them. You arn't going to have an airfeild in a real war. It will be support forces.. Really, you do know that DND does not have access to unlimited funds, your also aware that DND has given our government a shopping list of some 150 bil worth of equipment , which is to replace old equipemnt or update our existing capabilities.... Your also aware that the defense of Canada is not the only tasking given to DND, there is SAR, Domestic operations, global humanitarian assistance, etc etc...each with their own needs and wants...I'm just curious if you gave GM,Ford, and the rest of the car makers the same advice,and what did they do with it.... Canada's current military size is what it is, it is what Canadians want, not what is required....want to change that then work towards that goal...instead of dreaming about tanks that fall from the sky.... I'm not proud of it, and I'm not in defence of it. I am in support of human rights for all people, but I beleive in self determination of society. I beleive in the right to remove onesself from society (or found your own society or state)-- Heres a statement that i found confusing, i'll use a few quotes from this post to see if you can see it yourself...So much for human rights....so much for anything lets just nuc them let god sort them out.... however I'm much more in belief of level them and see if anything is moving than send in people and occupy the people. Who cares about the people if you kill anything with a gun who cares about who is in countrol. It will be by mutual consent if everyone with a gun is dead. Insurgent warfare is playing to guerilla demands and is a waste of money. Crush them and let them opt to keep rebuilding or be peaceful. They arn't going anywhere with a destoryed nation. Threat removed. I really don't know. It is easy for an arm chair general to say, you pathetic weenies, I woul of had iran russia and china under my power after 10 years with the power of NATO behind me... lets get real here, I just see 10 years in afghanistan to be a form of failure by design. I have a higher view of NATO than they have done over the last 10 years. This wasn't a war, ISAF (international security assistance force) not (INTERNATIONAL KILLERS OF THE OTHER GUYS FORCE) IKOTOGF. It is just a weak mission, and I don't like it. I'm more the type that would think killing anything that moves with guns is a more effective strategy doing it in a month and calling it a day. I'm not brought to militancy over other peoples sovreignty. I beleive in self destination.I think our own backyard and frontyard and house need fixing so its not me to go and say other people have it all wrong. The country I'm forced to live in doesn't have it right, so why should I go with a gun to someones head forcing them to change their way, when the gun would be better served by pointing it to my forced fellow country mans head. That just isn't applicable that is why I feel democracy and deliberation and communication is essential to peace. Setting up the standard of militant enforcement of rule isn't going to deradicalize it is going to kill people that feel strongly about something. Canada ain't perfect. Afghanistan is one of the things that makes it imperfect. No what you believe in is sticking your head in the sand , hoping the problem will go away...but it's not...and by acting you and this nation can do that....beats doing nothing hoping they can change their own problems even if it costs them millions in dead people.... The majority is not me. I am an individual forced to be a member of a society from their perspective. That is not freedom. Oh please lets get the Wam bulance out....Code red, code red....you would not know what freedoms you have if they bite you in the ass....try living in a country that has no freedoms at all...none....nobody is forcing you to stay here in Canada, pack your bags, in my opinion you should plan a trip over to Afghan , yes they still have a tourist industry, and yes they still accept Canadian passports....you can stay as long as you like....see what freedoms they have, then when you return let me know how you made out, you can tell us all how lucky we are , to live in a country with so many freedoms...but who knows maybe you'll like it over there and stay... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Esq Posted February 8, 2011 Author Report Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) For a guy who has quoted he is well aware of Canada's military history , because his grandfather, father, and brother has served in the military . Actually this is not the sole reason, but it gave me a more personal experience in being related to various projects, training and the oppourtunity experience a little of the CF first hand as a kid. Just a little. However the militaryesque of my brother and sister both in uniform still etched into my mind a lasting impression, even if the indepth characteristics wern't known. I was exposed to the existence of places like gagetown and greenwood. Likewise, many Canadians know someone in the military, as it is what 1 in 12 people? Still at all points of my life I've had atleast one exposure to the forces. Be it classmates, a friend, siblings, my dad, my grandfather, or even my personal experiences. Sorry, but were do you get your facts from, re check your facts and you'll find Canada just in the last 10 years or so went from a heavy mech force, to a middle wieght force , mostly do to the fact it was cheaper to maintain.... Guess we have a different view. I consider Canada light weight, you consider Canada middle weight. Lets look at it this way. Canada population 30 some million.. size of military 100,000 or so --1 in 350 or so. Now lets look at some other countries. US, CHINA, EU(france,brtian, italy, germany, spain etc.. countries) RUSSIA then we have countries like sweden, israel, north korea, south korea, japan, saudi arabia Canada would be hard pressed to fight a border war with a large african state. Let alone the ivory coast. As for the disallision , why is it that our military forces are in such demand, from other nations around the globe when a new mission comes around....or a postion opens up on an old one...your lack of knowledge about our forces is really starting to show... Cause no one else wants to. No this is a huge what if...Had Afghanistan not come along and our true military status not been uncovered DND would have continued on its course, which was to be a source of funding for other depts and governmental ideas... And what of the $50 billion dollar deficit and no invasion of Canada to be seen? Really, you do know that DND does not have access to unlimited funds, your also aware that DND has given our government a shopping list of some 150 bil worth of equipment , which is to replace old equipemnt or update our existing capabilities.... Governments should be able to finance themself not extort funds from the public. Your also aware that the defense of Canada is not the only tasking given to DND, there is SAR, For now and it is on the decline.. I had a CAF helicopter overfly my house. Domestic operations, global humanitarian assistance, etc etc...each with their own needs and wants...I'm just curious if you gave GM,Ford, and the rest of the car makers the same advice,and what did they do with it.... Let the banks fund humanitarian missions if they want them, or the public. The government of Canada's responsibility is to the Canadian people not swahili or afghanistan or haiti. That budget should go to Canada not 3rd world countries. IF they got ish, what is Canada gonna get from invading or occupying them. Once again no brainer. If the UN wants ISAF let them pay for it. It shouldn't come out of Canada's meager defence budget. Just like the g8 or g20, they want it split the bill. These billion dollar charities have lasting effect when you figure 20 million people paying 1 billion here and there Those are $50 bills out of Canadians pockets. paying 50 here and there really shouldn't be on Canadians backs. If Canadians wanted to pay $50's a year to deploy Canadians overseas on nation rebuilding then they should be doing that individually. -- Why should Canadians be paying $50 so foreign GO's can meet in Canada to talk about how they are going to give $50 more to help mums in africa. It ain't Canada. If they want to fund a $50 billion dollar program, let them raise the funds from their own private sources, not more taxes or debt. If you don't clue in Canadians have a per capita debt of about $100,000 likewise.. Canadians have a public debt perhaps approaching this same amount or $200,000 each. Someone has the money.. let them fund maternal health not the debt enslaved public. Let them fund afghanistan, let them fund the g20.. leave the extorted debt laden public alone. Let the people with money pay for this stuff. And guess what is Stephen Harper holding a personal debt load? What about the other heads of state that are getting free public meetings and transport.. what about the 100,000 people that met for the G20.. etc... NO I don't think they are.. they need to live the life. Let them put $50,000 down to pay for their own meeting if they want it, not the enslaved public. Lets see how much money is raised for the war that way. Leave Canada's defence budget to Canada. Canada's current military size is what it is, it is what Canadians want, not what is required....want to change that then work towards that goal...instead of dreaming about tanks that fall from the sky.... Tanks have been parachuted before. Its a movable cannon... you could even drop them in parts if you had a winch. Heres a statement that i found confusing, i'll use a few quotes from this post to see if you can see it yourself...So much for human rights....so much for anything lets just nuc them let god sort them out... Nuclear weapons are destructive to the ecosystem. It need not all be bombs, but nukes really wouldn't be too applicable for afghanistan. Water bombing runs might be better or acid. No what you believe in is sticking your head in the sand , hoping the problem will go away...but it's not...and by acting you and this nation can do that....beats doing nothing hoping they can change their own problems even if it costs them millions in dead people.... NO quite the opposite, I think getting a vaccum is a better solution. Sitting around afghanistan isn't solving a problem. It is basically just illegal war. It doesn't help Canada. Canada et al are suppose to be on their way out. The bottom line is, it won't help the long term development of Canada, it actually impaires Canada and wastes resources. People don't need a developed country to be "happy". It is just a different way of living, ask the old order mennonites. fact here is that, it is just cultural genocide. It ain't Canada, Canada shouldn't be engineering their society, that is foreign intervention and is immoral. I don't walk over to my neighbour and tell them how to raise their kids, it shouldn't be done at a national level either. You can give suggestions but going in there and handcuffing the guy then running his family ain't respectful. Oh please lets get the Wam bulance out....Code red, code red....you would not know what freedoms you have if they bite you in the ass....try living in a country that has no freedoms at all...none....nobody is forcing you to stay here in Canada, pack your bags, in my opinion you should plan a trip over to Afghan , yes they still have a tourist industry, and yes they still accept Canadian passports....you can stay as long as you like....see what freedoms they have, then when you return let me know how you made out, you can tell us all how lucky we are , to live in a country with so many freedoms...but who knows maybe you'll like it over there and stay... Why don't you pack your bags, I have as much right to the land as you. What am I suppose to plant a flag and suddenly be king. We know how this works. I don't need someone to tell me who ain't willing to shoot me to proove a point. Its illusionary and ego.. I'm not oblivious. God is rightful not man. We can cooperate or one of us can discuss it with god who knows maybe both. Without getting all quaky.. the bottom line here is that.. with or without Canada my right to self determination and use of land in a respectful way cannot be recognized as an alienable right. I can have respect for others formation of order but I am bound to my own best practice. Respect of the native inhabitants is something I see as reasonable. ----- Thing here is though, too bad. That is what Canada is saying. It works both ways. Being Canadian isn't a choice in Canada. Canadian citizenship cannot be self revoked. A Canadian cannot make themself stateless by Canadian Immigration law. The right of revoking rests with the government. The exclusion is in regard to a recognized foreign citizenship being substitute and even then the determination rests with the government. Edited February 8, 2011 by Esq Quote
Army Guy Posted February 8, 2011 Report Posted February 8, 2011 NO quite the opposite, I think getting a vaccum is a better solution. Sitting around afghanistan isn't solving a problem. It is basically just illegal war. It doesn't help Canada. Canada et al are suppose to be on their way out. The bottom line is, it won't help the long term development of Canada, it actually impaires Canada and wastes resources. People don't need a developed country to be "happy". It is just a different way of living, ask the old order mennonites. fact here is that, it is just cultural genocide. It ain't Canada, Canada shouldn't be engineering their society, that is foreign intervention and is immoral. I don't walk over to my neighbour and tell them how to raise their kids, it shouldn't be done at a national level either. You can give suggestions but going in there and handcuffing the guy then running his family ain't respectful. would you walk over and talk to your nieghbour's if he was abusing them or beating them, would you take action then....what does it take....for you to spring into action, to shut the game off, and actually take a stand....and yell over to your neighbor "hey lumpy, touch those kids one more time and i'm going to beat your ass....or are you the type to close the blinds and turn up the TV so you can't hear the screams......sometimes you just need to carry a big stick and use it becuase that is all that is left to do....it does not have to be respectful, but it is the right thing to do.... Why don't you pack your bags, I have as much right to the land as you. What am I suppose to plant a flag and suddenly be king. We know how this works. I don't need someone to tell me who ain't willing to shoot me to proove a point. I'm not the guy that is being forced to be Canadian, i'm actually very happy conforming to the majority rules.... Without getting all quaky.. the bottom line here is that.. with or without Canada my right to self determination and use of land in a respectful way cannot be recognized as an alienable right. I is , if you conform with the laws set out by the majority. Being Canadian isn't a choice in Canada. Canadian citizenship cannot be self revoked. A Canadian cannot make themself stateless by Canadian Immigration law. The right of revoking rests with the government. The exclusion is in regard to a recognized foreign citizenship being substitute and even then the determination rests with the government. Bullshit...everyone is entilted to a citenship of one sort or another, not happy here in Canada as a Canadian citizen then apply for a new one some place else, once accepted you can denounce being a Canadian and all that stands for....free to live the dream... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Esq Posted February 8, 2011 Author Report Posted February 8, 2011 (edited) would you walk over and talk to your nieghbour's if he was abusing them or beating them, I wouldn't, god might. As odd as it seems I think Families should have more right to practice than the state over families in their own regard. When it comes down to it, I personally don't agree with those options, and I think restraint in physical use of force is reasonable. However, it historically is not abnormal, and ethnicly also is deemed as acceptable in many cultures. The no harm clause is relatively recent (like the last 40 years), and even this is contraversial. The level of harm from "control" to abuse - is discretionary. I think that the point this becomes issued within your own society is generally when there is lasting harm - such as maiming. I personally don't suppot use of more than restraining force - in custodial relations - I think custody of adults is problematic at best - and I think the government is ill in some respects to applications of restraint to force plus 1 - it is a grey area. I'm generally in support of self defence - custodial situations with minors is something I havn't had to deal with all too much - I think with issues over an external acting force would be reasonable, however if the minor was causing the problem they may need to be restrained from the situation. I have had children been disruptive - and I think child psychology would best be researched here. It can be complex psychological situations. In regard to another parent using more force --- than I would. If a woman was being battered, - and risked life threatening injury or maiming yes I probably would intercede - likewise a child - judging this or having knowledge of this extent can be issued without practicle experience. It is largely an intuition situation. Overriding a countries laws - or religious practices is problematic, as some include mutilation as part of the practice. It is very complex, that is why I don't support interceding outside your own society. Self defence is one of the few instances where intersocietal interaction of a physical form need occur. It may be weird but you don't know what you are doing if you don't understand them. Non ethnocentrism when dealing with other cultures is important. I'm not into conquest and domination of others, I am more live and let live. Communication is of course there to better understand ... also offering other societies the chance to come into my own society is another option --- for example taking refugees, or negotiating an alternative... for example in afghanistan -- when dealing with the taliban you could say Taliban - there are two options - one you let the infidels and those that do not wish to practice Islam leave and come with us, and we let you live in peace. Or we take the infidels and those who do not wish to practice islam away and if you try to prevent us we will consider it an attack on ourselves. That type of situation. would you take action then....what does it take....for you to spring into action, to shut the game off, and actually take a stand....and yell over to your neighbor "hey lumpy, touch those kids one more time and i'm going to beat your ass....or are you the type to close the blinds and turn up the TV so you can't hear the screams......sometimes you just need to carry a big stick and use it becuase that is all that is left to do....it does not have to be respectful, but it is the right thing to do.... The world is full of demons. Material itself is a demon, goals are demons, emotions are demons but they are also the very essence of life. I can speak out while I have a voice. If the situation presents itself you need to take it at the situation. Power corrupts. Thing is I'm not out there to force my ways on others. Self defence is another issue. If you are going to do it, do it with a clear conscience. I'm not the guy that is being forced to be Canadian, i'm actually very happy conforming to the majority rules.... I is , if you conform with the laws set out by the majority. I believe in reason. My own. The majority ain't always right - also the majority ain't even the majority of people in parliament making the law, they are a minorty of the population in each riding in most cases. Bullshit...everyone is entilted to a citenship of one sort or another, not happy here in Canada as a Canadian citizen then apply for a new one some place else, once accepted you can denounce being a Canadian and all that stands for....free to live the dream... Why someplace else? can you point out a citizenship any canadian can just apply for and get straight up other than taliban? you type in free citizenship into google and look what you get http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=free+citizenship&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq= Edited February 8, 2011 by Esq Quote
Army Guy Posted February 9, 2011 Report Posted February 9, 2011 I wouldn't, god might. So your a religous man, don't get me wrong i've prayed to the big man many times myself mostly when things hit the fan...but i've yet to see him to send down a lighten bolt and zap some Ahole who deserved it, or stop someone from getting hurt....I'm a firm believer that God has empowered us with enough common sense to take matters into our own hands....to do what is right... In regard to another parent using more force --- than I would. If a woman was being battered, - and risked life threatening injury or maiming yes I probably would intercede - likewise a child - judging this or having knowledge of this extent can be issued without practicle experience. It is largely an intuition situation. Thats the difference between us, for me there is no probably, the situation you describe calls for direct action, it needs to be stopped. Overriding a countries laws - or religious practices is problematic, as some include mutilation as part of the practice. It is very complex, that is why I don't support interceding outside your own society. Self defence is one of the few instances where intersocietal interaction of a physical form need occur Self defence is not the only instance were force might be nessicary to act. In Afghanistan we have a group of bullies and thugs inposing their will upon millions they do that via fear,torture, and threat of death, they suspended most human rights, and took that outside their border to impose it on others...by allowing terrorist groups to operate inside their country, and allowing them to export that terror to our shores.... And while there is many countries who have done worse or deserve intervention, Afghanistan is were we are today...we as a nation have the ability to make this right, by giving up now we send a clear message that you can defeat NATO by riding it out, they will grow tired and leave....Vietnam is a prime example of that....by finishing the job, we will also be sending a message that there is light at the end of the tunnel, change can be made and NATO is equiped to do that... I believe in reason. My own. The majority ain't always right - also the majority ain't even the majority of people in parliament making the law, they are a minorty of the population in each riding in most cases. No it's not always right, but most laws are to benifit the majority, not individuals.... Why someplace else?can you point out a citizenship any canadian can just apply for and get straight up other than taliban? Most western countries will gladly accept ex Canadian citizens, provided your not some jack the ripper, or other wing nut. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
bloodyminded Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) So your a religous man, don't get me wrong i've prayed to the big man many times myself mostly when things hit the fan...but i've yet to see him to send down a lighten bolt and zap some Ahole who deserved it, or stop someone from getting hurt....I'm a firm believer that God has empowered us with enough common sense to take matters into our own hands....to do what is right... The Afghan war was not a decision to "fight bulliers" thanks to the courage of the military men and women. It was a political decision. And "courage" had nothing to do with it. You think Chretien and Harper have shown "courage" by involving us in the war? In Afghanistan we have a group of bullies and thugs inposing their will upon millions they do that via fear,torture, and threat of death, they suspended most human rights, and took that outside their border to impose it on others Our chief Afghan allies have been bullies and thugs, indistinguishable in most ways from the Taliban. Edited February 10, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
GWiz Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 The Afghan war was not a decision to "fight bulliers" thanks to the courage of the military men and women. It was a political decision. And "courage" had nothing to do with it. You think Chretien and Harper have shown "courage" by involving us in the war? Our chief Afghan allies have been bullies and thugs, indistinguishable in most ways from the Taliban. The Taliban are/were a result of U.S. aid to the Mujahadin in their fight against their Russian occupiers, they stepped into the void left when the Russians left Afghanistan... 19 Suicide bombers (none of them Taliban or even Afghanis) gave the U.S. a bloody nose so of course in retalliation Bush and Co. decided since the Taliban in Afghanistan were too slow to hand over some accussed wealthy Saudi living there to "take out" the Taliban Regime running Afghanistan... Their Northern Neighbour and GB wanted a piece of the action... In all honesty, since we were talking about probably the WORST regime in the world, the Taliban, I SUPPORTED the war when it started... The day the U.S. decided Iraq was the war they preferred, Canada should have pulled out of Afghanistan... No support from me from that day forward... If the Government in Afghanistan, and the Afghani people, won't fight for their own country with all the advantages they have, weapons, numbers, financial support (U.S., Canada, GB, NATO), and lose to an insurgent rag tag Taliban, Afghanitan deserves what it gets... That's my opinion, take it or leave it... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 ....In all honesty, since we were talking about probably the WORST regime in the world, the Taliban, I SUPPORTED the war when it started... The day the U.S. decided Iraq was the war they preferred, Canada should have pulled out of Afghanistan... That's fine, but the US and NATO are two very different things. Canada didn't exactly throw everything it had at Afghanistan either, and still doesn't, for sound reasons. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bloodyminded Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) The Taliban are/were a result of U.S. aid to the Mujahadin in their fight against their Russian occupiers, they stepped into the void left when the Russians left Afghanistan... 19 Suicide bombers (none of them Taliban or even Afghanis) gave the U.S. a bloody nose so of course in retalliation Bush and Co. decided since the Taliban in Afghanistan were too slow to hand over some accussed wealthy Saudi living there to "take out" the Taliban Regime running Afghanistan... Their Northern Neighbour and GB wanted a piece of the action... In all honesty, since we were talking about probably the WORST regime in the world, the Taliban, I SUPPORTED the war when it started... The day the U.S. decided Iraq was the war they preferred, Canada should have pulled out of Afghanistan... No support from me from that day forward... If the Government in Afghanistan, and the Afghani people, won't fight for their own country with all the advantages they have, weapons, numbers, financial support (U.S., Canada, GB, NATO), and lose to an insurgent rag tag Taliban, Afghanitan deserves what it gets... That's my opinion, take it or leave it... Are you suggesting that they're being ungrateful for all our noble work on their behalf? Because they might not accept the premise itself. Edited February 10, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
GWiz Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 That's fine, but the US and NATO are two very different things. Canada didn't exactly throw everything it had at Afghanistan either, and still doesn't, for sound reasons. Yeah, the US and NATO, are different entities, but I stand by what I said regardless... Not sure what you're trying to say with the "throw everything" or "sound reason", please clarify that... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 Yeah, the US and NATO, are different entities, but I stand by what I said regardless... Not sure what you're trying to say with the "throw everything" or "sound reason", please clarify that... OK...but you broke your own Rule #1 by responding to my post. If your disenchantment lies in the American adventure in Iraq and associated resources, then surely you must ask the same question of Canada. Where was your tactical air? Why was it not deployable (I already know this). If you expected the US (and other NATO partners) to max it out...where was yours? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
GWiz Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 OK...but you broke your own Rule #1 by responding to my post. If your disenchantment lies in the American adventure in Iraq and associated resources, then surely you must ask the same question of Canada. Where was your tactical air? Why was it not deployable (I already know this). If you expected the US (and other NATO partners) to max it out...where was yours? I'm not infallible... You know the answer as well as I do... Point being it was, is, and should remain a U.S., as opposed to NATO, mission, NATO got "suckered" into it by the U.S. and now don't want to "lose face", NATO's bad, not Bush's... And enough of the BS BC, if the mighty U.S. Military can't handle something like what happened, happens in 'lil 'ol Afghanistan all on their own, it's YOU (the USA) that has a problem, a mighty BIG problem (what's your military budget and manpower again?) not us... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 I'm not infallible... You know the answer as well as I do... Yes...your Rule #1 can be broken at any time! Point being it was, is, and should remain a U.S., as opposed to NATO, mission, NATO got "suckered" into it by the U.S. and now don't want to "lose face", NATO's bad, not Bush's... Wrong..big time wrong...go back and read the NATO fine print, and next time, be careful what you sign up for. And enough of the BS BC, if the mighty U.S. Military can't handle something like what happened, happens in 'lil 'ol Afghanistan all on their own, it's YOU (the USA) that has a problem, a mighty BIG problem (what's your military budget and manpower again?) not us... Nice dodge...so you have contempt for the US military being diverted to Iraq, while having none for your own nation never coughing up the dollars to be ready for a NATO commitment. That's what is bullshit, and your own Canadian Forces will tell you the same goddamn thing. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bloodyminded Posted February 10, 2011 Report Posted February 10, 2011 I'm not infallible... You know the answer as well as I do... Point being it was, is, and should remain a U.S., as opposed to NATO, mission, NATO got "suckered" into it by the U.S. and now don't want to "lose face", NATO's bad, not Bush's... I don't quite see how they got suckered into it. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
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