Gazan Youth Manifesto

[Bonam]

The posting of this was a direct response to people who say--with straight faces--"where are all the moderate Muslims?"

"Where are all the peaceable Palestinians?"

Here they are.

So, stuff like this gets posted.

And it is then derided and scoffed at. By a few of you, not by everybody.

These youths are taking a risk, here.

It's not nothing.

They may be moderate by Palestinian standards but peaceable? They seem to harbor plenty of hostility for Israel, not just Hamas. Though of course their circumstances engender a certain expected level of enmity, they would have to learn to put that aside if they truly want to achieve peace.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, certainly, such attitudes among Palestinians are a whole lot better than those pervaded by Hamas. But like I said, writing a manifesto crying about "why isn't the international community helping us" does not an independent nation make.

This is an empty platitude, and it is flatly untrue.

It is not 100% literally true, that is, obviously external effects affect one's life, but it is true in that it is up to oneself to make the most of the opportunities that one is presented with. Choices can be made, obstacles can be overcome, etc. Even in Palestine, there are opportunities for creating a better life for oneself. They face some unique challenges, but they are no greater than challenges that have been faced in the past by many individuals, many peoples, that nevertheless took it upon themselves to succeed, and eventually did so.

Anyway, what is an "empty platitude" is a manifesto that asks for much but does nothing. Many college students preach about "world peace" and even write essays/declarations/petitions on it, but just like this manifesto, they are mere "empty platitudes". To get anywhere, they'd have to DO something, such as directly protesting and opposing Hamas' tyrannical policies.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Bonam

[bloodyminded]

They may be moderate by Palestinian standards but peaceable? They seem to harbor plenty of hostility for Israel, not just Hamas.

Of course they do. You seem to view that as an inherent weakness in their stance, while I view it as recognizing their reality.

Anyway, what is an "empty platitude" is a manifesto that asks for much but does nothing. Many college students preach about "world peace" and even write essays/declarations/petitions on it, but just like this manifesto, they are mere "empty platitudes". To get anywhere, they'd have to DO something, such as directly protesting and opposing Hamas' tyrannical policies.

Also Israel; also the United States.

It would be impractical not to protest these forces, which are profoundly influential in their lives.

Edited January 9, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Bonam]

Of course they do. You seem to view that as an inherent weakness in their stance, while I view it as recognizing their reality.

No, I admitted that in the sentence immediately after the one you quoted.

Also Israel; also the United States.

One step at a time. Before they can do anything productive about the situation between Gaza and Israel, they have to do something about Hamas.

It would be impractical not to protest these forces, which are profoundly influential in their lives.

These "protests" must include more than writing an occasional "manifesto" in order to have any effect. That's all I'm saying here. Without something to back it up, a piece of paper is just that, a piece of paper, nothing more. Some Palestinians when faced with this reality choose to "take action", but the wrong action: launching rockets at Israel. Wrong mostly because it is ineffectual, regardless of its moral failings. Other Palestinians, when faced with this reality, give up and do nothing and just accept their lot in life. Those that choose to stand up to Hamas and demand freedom, but more importantly fight for freedom, are few and far between indeed. Where were the "moderate" Palestinians when Hamas systematically murdered political opponents? They were cowering in fear hoping not to be caught up in the slaughter. Prudent on a personal basis perhaps, but it leaves them where they are, tyrannized by their own government and pawns in a conflict that has lasted generations.

[bloodyminded]

One step at a time. Before they can do anything productive about the situation between Gaza and Israel, they have to do something about Hamas.

Israel despised and oppressed them long before Hamas was a gleam in Allah's jaundiced eye.

These "protests" must include more than writing an occasional "manifesto" in order to have any effect. That's all I'm saying here. Without something to back it up, a piece of paper is just that, a piece of paper, nothing more.

And all I'"m saying is that the hateful, anti-Palestinian voices, here and elsewhere, have always contended that there are no moderate Palestinians, an assertion so ignorant and out-of-touch that it suggests profound bigotry, if not outright racism.

As for the "piece of paper"...these youths are just that...a group of politically angry, disenchanted and disenfranchized Palestian youths. They're not some nascent Revolutionary group with a clear plan for massive change and upheaval. They say they're considering their next move...if there will be any.

I simply don't understand all the derision I'm hearing; I think it not only misplaced, but bizarre...and I suspect it's because those deriding them are confused: absolute denunciation of Hamas, which is "good"...but simultaneous denunciation of Israel and the U.S.

It's like the "Fuck Saddam, fuck the U.S.A." protesters in Baghdad; many people simply didn't know what to think...presumably because they had yet to be informed what to think, and were baffled by the notion that most of the world is not under a delusion of "good" powers fighting "bad" powers.

Just because that's our fiary-tale doesn't mean anyone else need to (nor should) adopt it.

[Bonam]

Israel despised and oppressed them long before Hamas was a gleam in Allah's jaundiced eye.

Regardless of the truth of that and the associated debate, that does not change the present reality.

And all I'"m saying is that the hateful, anti-Palestinian voices, here and elsewhere, have always contended that there are no moderate Palestinians, an assertion so ignorant and out-of-touch that it suggests profound bigotry, if not outright racism.

An assertion I have not made.

As for the "piece of paper"...these youths are just that...a group of politically angry, disenchanted and disenfranchized Palestian youths. They're not some nascent Revolutionary group with a clear plan for massive change and upheaval. They say they're considering their next move...if there will be any.

I guess we'll see whether the next move will be any less of an "empty platitude"?

I simply don't understand all the derision I'm hearing; I think it not only misplaced, but bizarre...and I suspect it's because those deriding them are confused: absolute denunciation of Hamas, which is "good"...but simultaneous denunciation of Israel and the U.S.

I am not "deriding" them, I do however think your praise would be better saved for an action that actually accomplishes something, rather than what is effectively mere whining.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Bonam

[bloodyminded]

Regardless of the truth of that and the associated debate, that does not change the present reality.

Israel is part of the present reality. If Hamas were gone, there's no reason--not one--to think that Israel would improve their treatment of the Palestinians.

An assertion I have not made.

not you, but many have, here on this baord. So, like I said, part of my reason for postiong this was an answer to the perennial, bigoted question.

I am not "deriding" them, I do however think your praise would be better saved for an action that actually accomplishes something, rather than what is effectively mere whining.

So every time somebody complains about the state of affairs--say, political pundits, editorial writers, the Tea Party--they are merely whining, and deserve your contempt?

Strange, because I haven't seen this from you.

Until the Palestinians here.

[Bonam]

Israel is part of the present reality. If Hamas were gone, there's no reason--not one--to think that Israel would improve their treatment of the Palestinians.

No, it's not that Israel would automatically change its relations with Gaza. Rather, if Hamas was gone, then whatever other force was in control of Gaza, if it was more credible and peace-oriented, would be better able to negotiate with Israel and thus help to improve their own conditions. Again, back to the recurring theme: they have to work to improve their own conditions. Part of that work will certainly be working on relations with Israel.

So every time somebody complains about the state of affairs--say, political pundits, editorial writers, the Tea Party--they are merely whining, and deserve your contempt?

I don't know about contempt, but they do not deserve praise until and unless their actions have had some impact.

Strange, because I haven't seen this from you.

Until the Palestinians here.

And I haven't seen you praising other angry-sounding, profanity-laced, pieces of writing. Until the Palestinians here.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Bonam

[bloodyminded]

I don't know about contempt, but they do not deserve praise until and unless their actions have had some impact.

Then we disagree on that point.

And I haven't seen you praising other angry-sounding, profanity-laced, pieces of writing. Until the Palestinians here.

Again--for the third time--I posted this as a response to the anti-Arab bigots who say "Palestinian" as if the word itself is boiling with maggots. The "all Palestinians are terrorists" knuckleheads who pass in our culture as serious commentators.

And yes, I admire angry, profanity-laced pieces of writing generally, if I think they're positive at heart.

[bud]

I have contended in earlier posts during Middle East discussions that

Palestinians are as mad at Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and

Arab League nations as they are Israel.

If anything what this outburst serves to remind us is that this is not

a black and white issue where all Palestinians think the same and all

Israelis think the same and we can reduce this complex conflict into

black and white, good guy v.s. bad guy scenarios.

The fact is Hamas has miserably failed its people by deliberately

choosing to engage in terrorism and violence and blowing up the

infrastructure of its people built during an earlier time period when

Israel did work hand in hand with Muslim charities building roads,

houses, community centres, schools in Gaza and allowing Gaza residents

into Israel to work.

It was Hamas which deliberately chose to turn from anti-terrorism and violence

to just that and threaten all its people with death and torture if they

tried to live peacefully with Israelis.

Hamas first and foremost is the primary agent of culpability for the

plight of Palestinians in Gaza.

I believe Palestinians in Gaza turned to Hamas not because of violence

but because they were desperate for an alternative to the corupt Arafat

Palestinian authority.

The Palestinian Authority under Arafat and Abbas has no one but itself

to blame for its continuing coruption.

The Arab League is to blame for failing to take an active role in

unanimously denouncing terrorism and exerting pressure on Hamas and

Hezbollah to cease and desist. The Arab Leage of nations prefer to

use Israel as a convenient scapegoat to sidetrack from their own

internal economic problems and political coruption.

The Arab League of nations has historically been responsible for

its own internal corupt, brutal, totalitarian regimes some closely

related to fundamentalist extremist Muslims they use to maintain

their political power bases.

All that said, while I am a strong supporter of Israel's right to exist and a Zionist I also do not want Palestinians to remain in their horrible status quo- their plight is not the vision Zionism intended and Zionism can never be complete until the Jewish collective can find peace with its Arab neighbours and help build a future for Palestinians.

So with that in mind I also would say with no reluctance that yes Israel's governments may very well have missed the boat failing to take advantage of opportunities to avoid confrontation and instead perhaps engage in excessive force and/or missed opportunities to dialogue peacefully.

Its security quaranntine of Gaza to prevent arms smuggling while necessary I believe may have gone too far with certain items or took too long for products to be processed through the border.

All sides can find blame. I am not here to point fingers at just

one party although I believe Hamas shares most of the moral blame. The bottom line is if a solution is found calling anyone names or judging them won't mean a damn thing and if anything will only prevent peace from coming about.

We have to move on from the blame game. Now. The youth are saying stop with the name calling and focusing on past mistakes and deal with here and now. Enough is enough harping over the past. Deal with now.

To Gaza youth I say this loud and clear-reach out

to Israeli youth and form peace networks.

Just do it. Use the internet and also initiate physical contacts in neutral countries.

That is how you break this cycle of violence and never changing despair.

Reach out. Just reach out. Revolutions are started by one person, just one

reaching out to his alledged enemy and forming a friendship.

Israeli youth are just as frustrated and angry as Palestinian youth. If

they genuinely thought they had someone to reach out to on the other side

they would.

So now just do it.

So simple, yet so hard to do because we all are afraid to each out to our

enemy for fear of rejection.

although i don't fully agree with everything you say, i do appreciate the comments you've made about this not being so black and white. it's also refreshing to see that you've commented on israel's role in the conflict. one of the major hurdles is for all sides to look within and accept the responsibility and the role of each side that continues to fan the flames.

one thing that is evident in this long conflict is that extremism is not going to solve the issue.

[Bob]

This manifesto can't be traced to anyone and is completely anonymous. Moreover, it says nothing and means nothing. This reeks like yet another one of bloodyminded's attempts to paint a picture of a people he knows nothing about - the Arabs who label themselves "Palestinians". This manifesto claims to speak for the youth of Gaza, which is over 50% of its population. An anonymous, untraceable document written in English and posted at the Guardian (a virulently anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist media outlet) is supposed to fool me into thinking its representative of Gazan youth beyond the British Muslim who wrote it in his mother's basement?

I won't even waste a minute addressing the ridiculous anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism that permeates the majority of this idiotic manifesto. What a joke. It's all hyperbole and dishonesty and propaganda.

[Bob]

I applaud these young people for publicly coming out against the Islamofascists "speaking" for them...

I just wonder how many of them will suffer from the extrajudicial killings that Islamofascist thugs like Hamas are famous for in silencing any dissent?

How is this a "public coming out"? It's an anonymous document, more than likely written by leftist activists in England.

[Bob]

Ignoring or shifting away the blame on Israel by the second page, I'm impressed the abilities of this forum never cease to amaze me. There's even some deriding of the courage it took to do this.

Assuming this document was actually written by Gazan youth, it required absolutely zero courage to compose and then forward to The Guardian while being kept anonymous. Moreover, the document is filled with inciteful rhetoric and plays the typical blame game against Israel. My suspicion is that this rant was written by a British leftist, who may or may not be a Muslim.

[Bob]

Why are you surprised? It doesn't matter who is doing what on a day to day basis. When you boil the situation down to the essentials, you have to face the fact that Arab states have repeatedly tried to invade Israel. Israel has never initiated a war with its neighbours.

Whenever Israel returned land it had occupied as a result of a war, groups like Hamas promptly used it as convenient rocket launching sites to fire literally thousands of random rockets into civilian areas of Israel.

Only a complete and utter dillhole of a leader would repeat such a mistake as to keep putting his people in danger! It is groups like Hamas that hide their rocket launchers in hospitals and schools. And only a complete moron would expect Israel to just sit there and let it's people be randomly blown to bits, virtually every day.

Any country has a right to defend itself, in whatever way works! Until Israel has security from its neighbours there's no point in talking about any solution that is essentially unilateral.

As I said before, if the rockets stop falling on Israel then they have no reason to launch helicopter strikes. At that point everyone can argue about who is to blame for what.

To be more specific, Hamas not only stores its weapons in schools and hospitals, they FIRE them from schools and hospitals. The terrorist infrastructure (everything from weapons to gasoline to vehicles to operations) is completely embedded within the civil infrastructure. There is no way to exclusively target terrorist infrastructure or persons because they are one with the civilian world. The teacher is also a Hamas terrorist. The ambulance which is used for legitimate medical purposes is also used to transport terrorists and weapons. This is the nature of war with these terrorists. Whenever they are struck, they advance their lies and propaganda with complicit anti-Semites and anti-Zionists.

One more clarification, terrorism isn't happening "virtually every day". It's being dealt with every minute of every day. It only makes the news when the media feels like reporting on it for one reason or another. From lower level violent demonstrations to more severe rocket attacks, shootings, and bombing, this is a minute-to-minute thing that Israel's security service has been dealing with since the first days of our independence. It has never relented, it has only been stopped more and more successfully as time goes on.

[Bob]

I shouldn't have to... but okay see the first Lebanon War. You know the one that began with Israel invading Lebanon? You could argue that is was because the ANO tried to assassinate Shlomo Argov, but the ANO had nothing to do with Lebanon and the PLO there, and Israel knew that they just wanted a weak pretext to invade.

You're either deliberately avoiding relevant context (unlikely) or completely ignorant of relevant context because you only consult propagandistic sources (very likely). That war is, like all the others, part of a broader story: the Israeli-Arab conflict. You're utilizing an arbitrary starting point for this episode of increased hostilities in order to paint Israel at the aggressor.

[Bob]

I'm just telling you what the Israeli defence minister at the time said. Of course according to many on these boards it wouldn't be because terrorists are not lawful combatants. (read a couple of pages on the Omar Khadr thing.

Here's a bit of reading for you.

Nobody gives a damn what Sharon may or may not have said at the time. Sharon's statements at that time, regardless of the accuracy of your quotation, don't change the facts of the time or the period leading up to the new intensification of the war. it's pretty rich listening to a person such as yourself attempting to portray himself as some sort of historian, when every statement you ever make on these issues reveals your massive ignorance of Israeli and Jewish history. You're in no position to be arguing with DogOnPorch about these things, and you're certainly in no position to be trying to educate this forum about these issues.

I always find it kinda amusing, in a sort of perverted way, to read historical revisionism and misrepresentations of Israeli and Jewish history from Goyim like yourself without any connection to the events on which you speak. You've never even read a book on these issues, yet don't hesitate at all to skim a Wikipedia page or two and puff out your chest like someone who knows what he's talking about.

[Bob]

Mufti or no Mufti ANY people that lived there would respond to the occupation with violence. Just like people did in Afghanistan, Chzecknia, Iraq, Polan, Russia, etc. At its root the palestinians are resisting Israeli occupation for the same reason American Colonists rebelled against British rule. People want self determination. The rectal pap you continuously spout is utterly irrelevant. If/when the occupation ends... violence will end. End of story.

My guess is though is that in 200 years our great grand kids will still be having this same discussion, and those shitbags will still be doing everything they possibly can to provoke each other.

In one breath you say laying blame for the start of this conflict is a meaningless endeavour, and in the very next breath you clearly imply that Israel's establishment is the cause of the problem - if only the occupation would end, so would the violence. Not only do you make a false implication that occupation caused this conflict (violence against Jews from the Arabs began many decades before 1948 in the pre-Israel Palestine Mandate), but you contradict your own position by blaming the Jews for starting this conflict by establishing our own independence and actualizing our own self-determination.

Arabs have self-determination everywhere you look. Israel isn't denying any Arabs self-determination in their own lands (Israel isn't their land). How many Arab countries are there, 22? And probably about fifty Muslim majority countries. Spare me claims of oppression of Arabs and Muslims, they've got more than enough land and countries through which they can actualize their national rights.

[Jack Weber]

Nobody gives a damn what Sharon may or may not have said at the time. Sharon's statements at that time, regardless of the accuracy of your quotation, don't change the facts of the time or the period leading up to the new intensification of the war. it's pretty rich listening to a person such as yourself attempting to portray himself as some sort of historian, when every statement you ever make on these issues reveals your massive ignorance of Israeli and Jewish history. You're in no position to be arguing with DogOnPorch about these things, and you're certainly in no position to be trying to educate this forum about these issues.

I always find it kinda amusing, in a sort of perverted way, to read historical revisionism and misrepresentations of Israeli and Jewish history from Goyim like yourself without any connection to the events on which you speak. You've never even read a book on these issues, yet don't hesitate at all to skim a Wikipedia page or two and puff out your chest like someone who knows what he's talking about.

Bob

Using disparaging Hebrew terms to describe non-Jews does'nt do your "Israel Uber Alles" one sided point of view a lot of good...

Frankly,very few really care about your Mediterranean pile of rocks...

As a Christian,from an eschatological standpoint,all I need to know is when you and the Islamofascists start to kill each other and draw the rest of the world into your silly conflict...

The rest is irrelevant background noise....

I'll let God count up he bodies of those destroying each other...

[bloodyminded]

This manifesto can't be traced to anyone and is completely anonymous. Moreover, it says nothing and means nothing. This reeks like yet another one of bloodyminded's attempts to paint a picture of a people he knows nothing about - the Arabs who label themselves "Palestinians". This manifesto claims to speak for the youth of Gaza, which is over 50% of its population. An anonymous, untraceable document written in English and posted at the Guardian (a virulently anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist media outlet) is supposed to fool me into thinking its representative of Gazan youth beyond the British Muslim who wrote it in his mother's basement?

I won't even waste a minute addressing the ridiculous anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism that permeates the majority of this idiotic manifesto. What a joke. It's all hyperbole and dishonesty and propaganda.

You're an extremist. You could learn something of humanity from the moderates who penned this manifesto.

Edited January 16, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Bob]

"Goyim" isn't a disparaging term. Don't be so insecure.

Describing an anonymously-written "rebel without a clue" manifesto blaming Israel for all of its ills is hardly "moderate". "Wall of shame", eh? Perhaps we should dismantle it and have more Jewish children murdered from these "Gazan youth". What a joke.

[bloodyminded]

"Goyim" isn't a disparaging term. Don't be so insecure.

Since I don't consider it all derogatory, and never once suggested that it was, I should think I'm not being terribly "insecure" about it.

But I note well that this is the second time in as many posts when you have invented a stance for me that I expressly do not hold...before knocking down your own invention.

I suppose you consider that honest debating?

Edited January 16, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Bob]

Since I don't consider it all derogatory, and never once suggested that it was, I should think I'm not being terribly "insecure" about it.

But I note well that this is the second time in as many posts when you have invented a stance for me that I expressly do not hold...before knocking down your own invention.

I suppose you consider that honest debating?

My mistake, I thought I had attributed that to Jack Weber. I meant to, but I forgot to. It was he that feigned offense over my use of the term "Goyim", while he doesn't even know what it means.

Either way, you're still ignoring everything that's been said... as usual.

Edited January 16, 2011 by Bob

[bloodyminded]

My mistake, I thought I had attributed that to Jack Weber. I meant to, but I forgot to. It was he that feigned offense over my use of the term "Goyim", while he doesn't even know what it means.

Either way, you're still ignoring everything that's been said... as usual.

Fair enough, we all make mistakes. But how am I "ignoring everything that's been said," when you keep mouthing falsehoods about me?

So you've as yet only attributed one idea to me that I don't hold and have never expressed. (My alleged "anti-Zionism"; because I don't consider your charges of anti-semitism or terrorist-apologist to be even serious, but rather in the mode of PC-speak as a means of deliberately shutting down discussion. )

Edited January 16, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Jack Weber]

My mistake, I thought I had attributed that to Jack Weber. I meant to, but I forgot to. It was he that feigned offense over my use of the term "Goyim", while he doesn't even know what it means.

Either way, you're still ignoring everything that's been said... as usual.

Read it and weep,Bobby...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/goyim

Enjoy your pile of rocks...

Just tell us when you extremists really start killing each other so we know the Messiah's return is near...

[Bob]

Read it and weep,Bobby...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/goyim

Enjoy your pile of rocks...

Just tell us when you extremists really start killing each other so we know the Messiah's return is near...

Are you using an obscure dictionary to tell me I don't know Hebrew? I know Hebrew. "Goyim" isn't a disparaging term. The only way it could be disparaging is if utilized with a rude tone. Imagine "white people". It can be disparaging if said a certain way. Either way, I'll end it here - I'm not going to argue with a Goy about Hebrew... especially when your very own link contains separate entries with the accurate definition - without an incorrect description of the word as disparaging.

[Bob]

Fair enough, we all make mistakes. But how am I "ignoring everything that's been said," when you keep mouthing falsehoods about me?

So you've as yet only attributed one idea to me that I don't hold and have never expressed. (My alleged "anti-Zionism"; because I don't consider your charges of anti-semitism or terrorist-apologist to be even serious, but rather in the mode of PC-speak as a means of deliberately shutting down discussion. )

You're not anti-Zionistic? You sure seem that way. You support Jewish independence in Israel via Jewish statehood?