Do you believe the 97% consensus among scientists?

[Accountability Now]

all that time? 20 secs? It's on me!

How long does it take to post a link to back up your claim? Apparently a lot longer?

[waldo]

No accusations Michael just truth on my end. waldo was asked to provide a link to back up his claim. He did not and then stated that he had. He's now saying that I needed to Google the quote to find it. Only bold face lies on his end.

no - again, that quote was provided with the original image... together. I never stated anything about a link. I stated I provided a quote from nrcan - Natural Resources Canada. I did. This is the exact quote:

when I posted that pic reference, I also quoted you from nrcan - Natural Resources Canada. I'm not aware of any serious body of research that disputes the impact of warming on the mountain pine-beetle life-cycle. In spite of all your caterwauling, you've not put forward anything to counter this widely accepted understanding. You've been encouraged/asked to do so... several times now. But again, please do it in an appropriate thread; I'm sensitive to your repeated raised concerns over thread derail.

I suggest you spend more time in actually reading what's been written... instead of throwing your accusations of "lying and dishonesty". Please, calm yourself.

and again, please provide something to support your apparent contesting of the widely accepted understanding that warming is affecting the life-cycle of the mountain pine-beetle... but in another appropriate thread given your raised concerns over thread derail.

Edited March 3, 2014 by waldo

[Accountability Now]

Guys ... perhaps a cool down on this one ? I see shouting and accusations...

no - again, that quote was provided with the original image... together. I never stated anything about a link. I stated I provided a quote from nrcan - Natural Resources Canada. I did. This is the exact quote:

I suggest you spend more time in actually reading what's been written. And again, please provide something to support your apparent contesting of the widely accepted understanding that warming is affecting the life-cycle of the mountain pine-beetle.

Michael....have a look a post 193 which waldo claims he provides the photo. Also look at his exact quote above and see where or if he states nrcan or Natural Resources Canada.

The fact is that he did not say anything about nrcan until post 239 when asked repeatedly to supply a link for which he would not. And instead of simply supplying the link he lied and said that he had supplied it all along. Absolute dishonest conversation.

Michael...a little while back you pleaded to the right wing members of this forum to call out a suspected right wing member (WWWTP) even though he is in fact left wing. You stated that you repeatedly call out members on the left when they require it. Don't you think this case requires it?

[waldo]

Michael....have a look a post 193 which waldo claims he provides the photo. Also look at his exact quote above and see where or if he states nrcan or Natural Resources Canada.

how desperate are you? The quote was there... from the onset. Are you suggesting you would give it any more consideration if it had been linked? The very first return on google of that quote is the nrcan - Natural Resources Canada site.

you're not adding anything new/positive to this thread. You refuse to take your purposeful distractions/deflections/derails to other more appropriate threads. Why are you here?

[waldo]

Absolute dishonest conversation.

again, it was your "theoretical" word usage that prompted 2 examples of anything but "theoretical' being presented to you... ocean acidification and mountain pine-beetle damage/destruction.

although you won't categorically state you don't accept that warming is having an affect on the pine-beetle life-cycle, your very insistence in having that confirmed (for you), suggests you don't accept that widely accepted understanding.

yet... instead of responding to the challenges put to you, those asking you to support your contention, you instead choose to bark out claims of "lying and being dishonest". Apparently, this is your type of "honest conversation"!

[The_Squid]

Thanks Squid. I appreciate your willingness for HONEST conversation.

I do note that the article you posted is a 2004 paper from Allan Carroll. Here is an updated 2010 abstract discussing the same things but adding a little more information on the cause.

http://www.nrs.fs.fed.us/pubs/gtr/gtr-nrs-p-75papers/01carroll-p-75.pdf

Is it not fair to say that forest mangement and logging tehcniques may have been the main cause of this?

Read the line right after the one you highlighted. There are plenty of references, including the one you just quoted, that give warming temperatures as a cause for the devastation caused by the pine beetle. If we sustained cold temps like we used to, the pine beetle wouldn't be as rampant.

[Michael Hardner]

Michael...a little while back you pleaded to the right wing members of this forum to call out a suspected right wing member (WWWTP) even though he is in fact left wing. You stated that you repeatedly call out members on the left when they require it. Don't you think this case requires it?

I'm not charged with calling out individuals on behavior, only to 'facilitate' - so in the case such as this I see a general tone of exasperation, all CAPS, and so on - so I post a friendly reminder as to what it already says in the rules.

I do generally call out left-wingers on the facts, which usually happens to be on economics not environ science.

[waldo]

I'm not charged with calling out individuals on behavior, only to 'facilitate' - so in the case such as this I see a general tone of exasperation, all CAPS, and so on - so I post a friendly reminder as to what it already says in the rules.

certainly no exasperation on my part... certainly no ALL CAPS on my part... certainly no directing of insults to anyone on my part... certainly no lying on my part... certainly no dishonesty on my part...

in regard the most recent subject at hand, that disingenuous call for 'honest discussion' could be... should be, remedied with a substantiation provided to counter the accepted understanding that warming is affecting the life-cycle of the mountain pine-beetle.

[Accountability Now]

Read the line right after the one you highlighted. There are plenty of references, including the one you just quoted, that give warming temperatures as a cause for the devastation caused by the pine beetle. If we sustained cold temps like we used to, the pine beetle wouldn't be as rampant.

I I am aware that a lack of cold temperatures have played a part. However, is the recent warming the only cause of this? No...according to Carroll it requires both a large amount of pine and warmer temps to casue an epidemic. So how much can be blamed on warming and how much on forest managemnt practices.....I don't know.

However if you want to look at just the warming then I would have to question the ability to kill these in the first place. Your study states that it requires minus 40C for 100% mortality. Looking at a few cities in the interior BC we can see that the record cold temperatures for places such as Williams Lake is only -42C. This the record cold temperature...not expected. Additionally, I don't know if the under bark temperture matches the air temperture of if it is a little warmer. If so, then you would need all of that -42 record temp to kill these things in Williams Lake. You go further north and PG has a record cold temp of -50C....so that is probably doable. However, you go south to Kamloops and Kelowna and you have record cold temps of -37 and -36 respectively. These extreme tempertures wouldn't of have the ability to kill of these beetles.

So how much can be put back on the warming?

[Accountability Now]

I'm not charged with calling out individuals on behavior, only to 'facilitate' - so in the case such as this I see a general tone of exasperation, all CAPS, and so on - so I post a friendly reminder as to what it already says in the rules.

I do generally call out left-wingers on the facts, which usually happens to be on economics not environ science.

Like the fact that waldo lied about his citation?

[Bonam]

I I am aware that a lack of cold temperatures have played a part. However, is the recent warming the only cause of this? No...according to Carroll it requires both a large amount of pine and warmer temps to casue an epidemic. So how much can be blamed on warming and how much on forest managemnt practices.....I don't know.

However if you want to look at just the warming then I would have to question the ability to kill these in the first place. Your study states that it requires minus 40C for 100% mortality.

You don't need 100% mortality to prevent massive outbreaks. You just need enough mortality so that the population remains stable from year to year, rather than exploding rapidly.

[waldo]

So how much can be put back on the warming?

provide a study that categorically states warming is not the principal cause changing the life-cycle of the mountain pine-beetle.

[waldo]

Like the fact that waldo lied about his citation?

your repeated saying it means diddly. I didn't provide a citation. I never said I did... I did say I provided a quote from nrcan - Natural Resources Canada. I did.

I will ask you to please refrain from your accusations of lying and dishonesty.

.

[Accountability Now]

You don't need 100% mortality to prevent massive outbreaks. You just need enough mortality so that the population remains stable from year to year, rather than exploding rapidly.

Ok. So at what temperature does that occur? And would it occur if forest management practices had been better? As stated by the study, "during the latter half of the previous century, there was more than three times the amount of mature pine in western Canada at the start of the current outbreak than 100 years earlier "

[Accountability Now]

your repeated saying it means diddly. I didn't provide a citation. I never said I did... I did say I provided a quote from nrcan - Natural Resources Canada. I did.

I will ask you to please refrain from your accusations of lying and dishonesty.

.

I asked you four times to provide a link or some sort of back up as your quote had no reference whatsoever. Here are my requests:

As always.....your post says NOTHING as to how this is related to AGW. NOTHING!!! You don't even provide a link either. Scared of something?

More notably....I see you didn't come close to touching my notes from the IPCC about the low confidence in extreme weather events. This one really bothers you especially after you blabbed on in a thread that you created called Increasing weather extremes. That one really hurt....didn't it!!

I asked you for a link and a reference to back up your claim. I trust the moderators of this forum thread will acknowledge your dishonest conversation style.

As per my previous post

So not only did you derail this thread by talking NOTHING about AGW but you now won't provide the link. Yikes

PROVIODE YOUR BACK UP!!! How difficult is it to understand??????

After you realized that I had given up and gone on to an honest conversation, you replied with this:

when I posted that pic reference, I also quoted you from nrcan - Natural Resources Canada. I'm not aware of any serious body of research that disputes the impact of warming on the mountain pine-beetle life-cycle. In spite of all your caterwauling, you've not put forward anything to counter this widely accepted understanding. You've been encouraged/asked to do so... several times now. But again, please do it in an appropriate thread; I'm sensitive to your repeated raised concerns over thread derail.

You clearly state that you quoted from nrcan but neither your original post nor your responses to my post above states this. You finally stated where you got this informaton and claimed that it was understood all along that it came from nrcan.

You are without a doubt the most dishonest member on this forum.

[The_Squid]

Ok. So at what temperature does that occur? And would it occur if forest management practices had been better? As stated by the study, "during the latter half of the previous century, there was more than three times the amount of mature pine in western Canada at the start of the current outbreak than 100 years earlier "

Cold weather kills them. We used to get this type of weather, but we haven't for many years, hence the dramatic spread of the beetle.

I suggest you do a bit of research if you want to know about the pine beetle.

Start with some basic facts:

http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/mountain_pine_beetle/facts.htm

Use google scholar. There are lots of good journal articles that have all the info that you're looking for. Neither you nor I know enough about the contributing factors to have a debate on why the pine beetle has ravaged BC's pine forests. The publications speak for themselves, like the one that you referenced and quoted that climate change is a contributing factor.

[waldo]

I asked you four times to provide a link or some sort of back up as your quote had no reference whatsoever. Here are my requests:

You are without a doubt the most dishonest member on this forum.

no - I provided an image with a accompanying quotation. You have never addressed the content of the quotation. Never. It is the most basic action to simply google the quote... as I said, the 1st return from google is the nrcan site.

again, I never stated I provided a cited link. I stated I provided a quotation from nrcan - Natural Resources Canada. That's exactly what I did.

I will ask you once again to temper your inability to contain your outbursts... to stop your repeated claims/charges that i am dishonest.

you wouldn' categorically state your position on warming and its impact on the life-cycle of the pine-beetle... you still haven't. You were repeatedly challenged to support your countering of the accepted understanding that increased warming is the principal causal impact on the pine-beetle life-cycle and their growing expansive reach... with the accompanying destructive/damaging result... on lodgepole/jack pine trees.

[Accountability Now]

Cold weather kills them. We used to get this type of weather, but we haven't for many years, hence the dramatic spread of the beetle.

-40 weather or just cold weather? Bonam stated that it doesn't need to be -40C as you don't need to kill them all. Even if its -35 then you will be in tough in some parts of BC as their record lows for all time are around -36/-37.

Use google scholar. There are lots of good journal articles that have all the info that you're looking for. Neither you nor I know enough about the contributing factors to have a debate on why the pine beetle has ravaged BC's pine forests. The publications speak for themselves, like the one that you referenced and quoted that climate change is a contributing factor.

Unlike other posters on this site, I am willing to accept that certain things can be a person's opinion and not berate them for it. So I have no problems discussing opinions and knowing that our ultimate debate doesn't settle anything. Having said that, I think its fair to say that in situations like this its not fair to just say climate change is at the root of this, especially human induced climate change.

[Accountability Now]

you wouldn' categorically state your position on warming and its impact on the life-cycle of the pine-beetle... you still haven't. You were repeatedly challenged to support your countering of the accepted understanding that increased warming is the principal causal impact on the pine-beetle life-cycle and their growing expansive reach... with the accompanying destructive/damaging result... on lodgepole/jack pine trees.

I have stated my position in conversation with honest MLW members. I choose not to engage dishonest members like yourself.

[waldo]

I have stated my position in conversation with honest MLW members. I choose not to engage dishonest members like yourself.

again, I will once again ask you to refrain from calling me dishonest. I have shown nothing within this thread that speaks to your continued labeling.

[Accountability Now]

again, I will once again ask you to refrain from calling me dishonest. I have shown nothing within this thread that speaks to your continued labeling.

Report me then. I don't care. Your dishonesty should be showcased.

[waldo]

Having said that, I think its fair to say that in situations like this its not fair to just say climate change is at the root of this, especially human induced climate change.

so, uhhh... not 'human induced' then! Only the "natural induced" climate change then, hey? Why didn't you say so from the start?

[waldo]

Report me then. I don't care. Your dishonesty should be showcased.

again, please refrain from applying your dishonesty labeling to me. I've given no cause within this thread to support your continued claims of lying/being dishonest. I've repeatedly asked you to stop! You refuse.

[Accountability Now]

again, please refrain from applying your dishonesty labeling to me. I've given no cause within this thread to support your continued claims of lying/being dishonest. I've repeatedly asked you to stop! You refuse.

Report me. Let the mods decide. I really don't care.

[The_Squid]

-40 weather or just cold weather? Bonam stated that it doesn't need to be -40C as you don't need to kill them all. Even if its -35 then you will be in tough in some parts of BC as their record lows for all time are around -36/-37.

Unlike other posters on this site, I am willing to accept that certain things can be a person's opinion and not berate them for it. So I have no problems discussing opinions and knowing that our ultimate debate doesn't settle anything. Having said that, I think its fair to say that in situations like this its not fair to just say climate change is at the root of this, especially human induced climate change.

I am not a beetle biologist, or a forestry scientist... read the journal articles. They will tell you more than you have ever needed to know about the pine beetle and why it has spread.

On your point regarding temperatures; where the pine forests are in BC have often been cold enough to control the beetle. That's why it hadn't spread. This isn't an issue in the lower mainland where there aren't pine forests.

The fact sheet I linked to has this information. Why didn't you just read it? Why are you asking me this again?

In the winter, temperatures must consistently be below -35 Celsius or -40 Celsius for several straight days to kill off large portions of mountain pine beetle populations.