The trouble with Islam

[Sir Bandelot]

The problem with Islam is not the religion in itself, or in the writings of a book, it's about who holds power. In Islamic countries there is a class of people who believe that they are authorized to carry out God's will. In other words, that they have the right to directly punish anyone who does not adhere to Islamic practices. They believe that they represent God, they are the spokesman and in essence the very hand of God. It's not a problem in religious belief per se, but in the belief that the Imams, the Ayatollahs, the religious leaders, have a right to carry out God's will.

In order for Islam to reform, power needs to be taken away from these people.

That is what really needs to be changed, power needs to be removed from the religious authorities. More specifically, the power to carry out punishments based on religious beliefs. Islam itself does not need to be attacked or put down. It is theocracy that is at the root of the problem. Specifically, the idea that man is obligated to carry out vengeance in the name of the Lord. We can point to other Islamic countries where there is no theocratic rule, and see a model for healthy, living Islam.

For us this relates back to a time when theocracy ruled western civilization, we can look back at our own history and see what took place. Many people were put to the death. That dark time was possibly even worse, than the Islamic theocracy we see in the world today. At some point in our past we removed the power of the priests to enact Gods authority. This is based on the concept "Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord". That belief is ancient, but it did not stop us from creating a harsh theocracy in our own civilization, one that lasted for centuries, until we finally embraced the real meaning of our own religious thought. We chose to leave judgment to God, recognizing we are all imperfect, that none of us has the right to cast the first stone.

So for Islam to reform, what its followers need to do is become more Islamic.

[Michael Hardner]

I would say that if the followers are exposed to pluralistic society, then they will see the benefits of that type of living.

[dre]

I would say that if the followers are exposed to pluralistic society, then they will see the benefits of that type of living.

Its true. Thats exactly what we see all the time.

[GostHacked]

The problem with Islam is not the religion in itself, or in the writings of a book, it's about who holds power. In Islamic countries there is a class of people who believe that they are authorized to carry out God's will. In other words, that they have the right to directly punish anyone who does not adhere to Islamic practices. They believe that they represent God, they are the spokesman and in essence the very hand of God. It's not a problem in religious belief per se, but in the belief that the Imams, the Ayatollahs, the religious leaders, have a right to carry out God's will.

In order for Islam to reform, power needs to be taken away from these people.

Agreed 100%. Islam is not the problem, as I have said before. However you have put it in better words.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Couldn't the title just as easily read the trouble with fundamentalism?

Edited November 22, 2010 by TrueMetis

[Oleg Bach]

Couldn't the tile just as easily read the trouble with fundamentalism?

The trouble with both is that a human being attempts to play God and speak for God...Islam means to submit to the devine power of the universe..which is probably a good contract to have..It like Christianity or Judaism does not mean a submission to some nut who has a direct line to God...no one has audience with God on a personal level - God is highly impersonal because he is NOT a person.

All those who act or speak in the name of God are rats... some places angels fear to tread..and that is the realm of human domination..no one has the right to dominate anyone! The trouble with Islam is that some - believe they are assisting God and doing God's bidding - which is like saying that the ALL MIGHTY is not all mighty - but is weak and needs help...this idea is counter to all logic.

From my point of view we must all be true Islamics - Christians - Jews or what ever.. ALL must submit to goodness..or godness. If ALL are in a state of submission to a devine and ultimate power - then that is the basis for a thing called RULE OF LAW....with out the recognition of the fact that human intelligence is inept - that we are all stupid...and all less than all powerful..all is lost...When you can grow back a missing tooth - then you are on your way to being God - but no one can.

[Oleg Bach]

ISLAM MEANS TO SUBMIT TO GOD - TO GOODNESS...It is evident that there is a move afoot to destroy the true meaning of Islam and to create a force that submits to a man..and does the bidding of that man who is not good - who is NOT God!

[dre]

ISLAM MEANS TO SUBMIT TO GOD - TO GOODNESS...It is evident that there is a move afoot to destroy the true meaning of Islam and to create a force that submits to a man..and does the bidding of that man who is not good - who is NOT God!

ALL religions do the bidding of man.

[bloodyminded]

ISLAM MEANS TO SUBMIT TO GOD - TO GOODNESS...It is evident that there is a move afoot to destroy the true meaning of Islam and to create a force that submits to a man..and does the bidding of that man who is not good - who is NOT God!

To expand on Dre's obviously correct rejoinder: religion is nothing without man--by definition--and all that is bad about religion is man's fault; and all that is good about religion is also man's fault. Human beings are not "fallen"--because we have never been "up" or "pure" in the Bilical sense. (If we had, we could not have fallen.) It's not that God is good and man corrupted; we are corrupt (not corrupted from some previous benevolent state), and we are also good. (Also neutral, I would argue, since duality oversimplifies.)

God and Satan, Allah and Shaitan, are us. The Rabbi now known as "Jesus Christ" is a symbol for the perfectability of man; his crucifixion a metaphor, aptly summed up by the great Canadian poet, Alden Nowlan:

"Each of us has no choice

but to suffer

for the others."

[Sir Bandelot]

To expand on Dre's obviously correct rejoinder: religion is nothing without man--by definition--and all that is bad about religion is man's fault; and all that is good about religion is also man's fault. Human beings are not "fallen"--because we have never been "up" or "pure" in the Bilical sense. (If we had, we could not have fallen.) It's not that God is good and man corrupted; we are corrupt (not corrupted from some previous benevolent state), and we are also good. (Also neutral, I would argue, since duality oversimplifies.)

God and Satan, Allah and Shaitan, are us. The Rabbi now known as "Jesus Christ" is a symbol for the perfectability of man; his crucifixion a metaphor, aptly summed up by the great Canadian poet, Alden Nowlan:

"Each of us has no choice

but to suffer

for the others."

But bloodyminded, if you truly believe that then you will know, it's also just your personal interpretation. So each of us who may think differently about it must also suffer, for you

[bloodyminded]

But bloodyminded, if you truly believe that then you will know, it's also just your personal interpretation. So each of us who may think differently about it must also suffer, for you

[bolding added by me]

Yes...I think that's self-evident in the piece from the poem I offerred: "Each of us...."

That it's my "personal interpretation"...again, this goes without saying; or to clarify, not so much my personal interpretation as other peoples' insight, with which I personally agree.