Is it fair for seasonal wokers to get EI benefit repeatedly?

[dre]

If people have more disposable income, then that money can go to other services.

Other products and services that we have less and less of a role in supplying.

Do you think people have more disposable income after 30 years of outsourcing production? Its true that inflation adjusted income has increased a bit. But so have the values of a house, bus ticket, food, trip to the dentist, etc.

Why has all this outsourcing not made us flush with extra disposable income? And our ability to save peaked in the late 70's right about when decided it wasnt important for us to "do stuff" anymore.

Im not sure that emperor has any clothes.

[dre]

But in both cases - the seasonal or the manufacturing support, the economics of it is good since it keeps a specialty trained workforce in place for when the work picks up.

Not only that but its easy to give up an industry, but way harder to get one back. The savings we get from allowing domestic production to be replaced with foreign production are temporary... eventually we will be paying as much as we used to pay to buy the same products from Canadian producers. The problem is by that time is will be largely too late to get back into some of these industries. The infrastructure, companies, and skills will be long gone.

[Michael Hardner]

Other products and services that we have less and less of a role in supplying.

There are also services that grow in these situations. Home businesses, and new areas have mushroomed in the last 20 years. I'm thinking of things that are local and can't be outsourced.

Do you think people have more disposable income after 30 years of outsourcing production? Its true that inflation adjusted income has increased a bit. But so have the values of a house, bus ticket, food, trip to the dentist, etc.

Yes, but the gains have gone to the top earners unproportionally. Also, something to think of is that more families have double incomes.

Why has all this outsourcing not made us flush with extra disposable income? And our ability to save peaked in the late 70's right about when decided it wasnt important for us to "do stuff" anymore.

I believe it has.

Im not sure that emperor has any clothes.

[Shwa]

Ok, but is that the case for every industry that is supported in this way ?

I think every industry that requires a specialty trained workforce with known, but unpredictable periods of inactivity, pretty much, yes, I think most of them have some sort of sweetheart deal with EI.

[Shwa]

Not only that but its easy to give up an industry, but way harder to get one back. The savings we get from allowing domestic production to be replaced with foreign production are temporary... eventually we will be paying as much as we used to pay to buy the same products from Canadian producers. The problem is by that time is will be largely too late to get back into some of these industries. The infrastructure, companies, and skills will be long gone.

Good points! For example, Mexican auto-makers do not pay Canadian taxes nor do call-centre staff in India.

[Topaz]

Why just seasonally though? Major auto manufacturers routinely lay off good portions of their workforce while the factories are being retooled for one reason or another, a new product line or for supply problems or other sector wide influences. And more often that not these major manufacturers have a sweet deal that will either quickly bring EI to their laid-off workforce or top up any payments the company makes to them during the lay-off.

That's true but that doesn't happen every year,unlike seasonal.

[bush_cheney2004]

Good points! For example, Mexican auto-makers do not pay Canadian taxes nor do call-centre staff in India.

Canadian call center staff also do not pay American taxes.

[Michael Hardner]

Good points! For example, Mexican auto-makers do not pay Canadian taxes nor do call-centre staff in India.

Right. When we send those jobs offshore, we lose the salaries and the taxes. The replacement jobs presumably make those up.

[Shwa]

Canadian call center staff also do not pay American taxes.

Except for all the money those staff might pay for American goods and services.

[Shwa]

Right. When we send those jobs offshore, we lose the salaries and the taxes. The replacement jobs presumably make those up.

What replacement jobs? Like fishing, lumber and tourism?

[bush_cheney2004]

Except for all the money those staff might pay for American goods and services.

Mexican shoppers might pay just as much....nothing magic about jobs outsourced to Canada.

Edited November 22, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Shwa]

Mexican shoppers might pay just as much....nothing magic about jobs outsourced to Canada.

So your point is... what?

Edited November 22, 2010 by Shwa

[bush_cheney2004]

So your point is... what?

Whining about Canadian jobs being outsourced to Mexico or India is echoed by American jobs being outsourced to Canada. What goes around, comes around.

[Michael Hardner]

What replacement jobs? Like fishing, lumber and tourism?

Whatever the replacement jobs are.

[dre]

Whatever the replacement jobs are.

I dunno. Youre basing this on the premise of competition based on cost. If you wanna follow that to its inevitable conclusion than what exactly do you think Canadians are gonna do for a living?

I mean... pretty much EVERYTHING we do could be made cheaper by either moving the production to cheap labor markets or moving the cheap labor to here.

Name for me a SINGLE JOB you see Canadians doing in this new economy, and Ill bet you I can find a way to do it for LESS if I'm allowed to move production and labor around the world like pieces on a RISK board like a corporation could do in a truly global economy.

Edited November 22, 2010 by dre

[Michael Hardner]

I dunno. Youre basing this on the premise of competition based on cost. If you wanna follow that to its inevitable conclusion than what exactly do you think Canadians are gonna do for a living?

I mean... pretty much EVERYTHING we do could be made cheaper by either moving the production to cheap labor markets or moving the cheap labor to here.

Not really. There are some services that require face-to-face interaction and can't be sent off. Also, bringing labour here instantly makes it more expensive.

Name for me a SINGLE JOB you see Canadians doing in this new economy, and Ill bet you I can find a way to do it for LESS if I'm allowed to move production and labor around the world like pieces on a RISK board like a corporation could do in a truly global economy.

- New medical services that have risen over the last 20 years, such as chiropractic or naturopathic medicine

- Home renovations have exploded, at least where I live

- Web development

- Film and television production

Those are just off the top of my head

[Shwa]

Whatever the replacement jobs are.

Assuming there are "replacement jobs" right?

In the case of a manufacturing sector - move those jobs because there will eventually be "replacement jobs." That is a heck of a risk for a politician, far more risk that keeping some fishermen or timbermen on the dole in the off-season.

[Shwa]

Whining about Canadian jobs being outsourced to Mexico or India is echoed by American jobs being outsourced to Canada. What goes around, comes around.

I thought you were making an important point or something. My mistake. The OP is about benefits derived from the Employment Insurance Act here in Canada. No one cares about the taxes Americans and Mexicans pay, nor do we care about jobs outsourced to Canada since it really doesn't have to do with anything important insofar as the thread goes. We're not here to protect American or Mexican jobs.

If you want to create YAT (Yet Another Thread) about this 'whining' please feel free to do so, but perhaps in the US Politics or US-Canada Relations categories. Someone might care there.

[bush_cheney2004]

..... We're not here to protect American or Mexican jobs.

Nope, but apparently it is very important to complain about the shoe being on the other foot. EI is just a symptom of this reality. Please continue blaming the Indians, Chinese, and Mexicans.

[Michael Hardner]

Assuming there are "replacement jobs" right?

The theory is that the jobs are "replaced" with time.

[bush_cheney2004]

The theory is that the jobs are "replaced" with time.

Some are....most are not, and never will be. Adapt or....EI!

[Michael Hardner]

Some are....most are not, and never will be. Adapt or....EI!

Why 'most are not' ? Isn't the whole theory of free trade that it's mutually advantageous, and that the net economic advantage is positive ?

[bush_cheney2004]

Why 'most are not' ? Isn't the whole theory of free trade that it's mutually advantageous, and that the net economic advantage is positive ?

The advantage is for efficiency and allocation of resources, not political favor or labor parity. Economics doesn't really care about individual sob stories.

[Michael Hardner]

The advantage is for efficiency and allocation of resources, not political favor or labor parity. Economics doesn't really care about individual sob stories.

Right. I guess you're saying that employment doesn't necessary follow from these principles.

[bush_cheney2004]

Right. I guess you're saying that employment doesn't necessary follow from these principles.

Agreed...employment is the state of trading labor for pay and/or benefits, and is not a requirement for efficient production or services. Competition forces the issue.