Harper blames Israeli stance for UN snub

[PIK]

I provided 6 examples of Hamas calling for the death of ALL Jews. You provide excuses for these murderers.

History is the greatest education tool out there and unfortunitly, alot of people here have no understanding of history ,so we will have to repeated it again, before some of these cemment heads get it.

[PIK]

Arguably, one can say that the state of Israel is under threat, but to suggest that Jews worldwide are the only people under threat is absurd? Roma are constantly under threat around the world, as are homosexuals.

And in the ME Isreal is the only safe harbour for gay people.

[KeyStone]

I provided 6 examples of Hamas calling for the death of ALL Jews. You provide excuses for these murderers.

I called them nutbars. That is hardly providing an excuse.

The spiritual leader of Israel’s Shas party denounced upcoming talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority and wished for the death of Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas.

Ovadia Yosef, a former Israeli chief rabbi, called Palestinians "evil, bitter enemies of Israel" during his weekly sermon on Saturday.

"Abu Mazen and all these evil people should perish from this world," he said, using Abbas' common nickname. "God should strike them with a plague, them and these Palestinians."

Oh look, we have a Jewish spiritual leader praying for the deaths of all Palestinians.

Does this mean we can label ALL Jews as Islamophobes, and assume that they are always in the wrong?

Does this mean, we can say that there are those that would have a holocaust against the Palestinians if left unchecked?

No, because they are nutbars with very little power, and not reflective of the people as a whole.

It is not the good Jews vs the bad Arabs, it is the moderates against the extremists.

[KeyStone]

And in the ME Isreal is the only safe harbour for gay people.

So?

Does that mean Israel is good and Palestine is bad?

Canada recognizes gay marriage and the US doesn't.

Does that mean Canada is good and the US is bad?

[Keepitsimple]

So?

Does that mean Israel is good and Palestine is bad?

Canada recognizes gay marriage and the US doesn't.

Does that mean Canada is good and the US is bad?

Is your continuous ranting against Harper, against Canada - or simply against the concept that Jews/Israel are being treated unfairly? At first, you seemed to be ranting against Harper and if so, I will again ask you to read Irwin Cotler's (Liberal MP - former Justice Minister & Attorney General) speech at the same conference where he said this:

In a word, Israel is the only state in the world today - and the Jews the only people in the world today - that are the object of a standing set of threats by governmental, religious and terrorist bodies seeking their destruction. The London Declaration - again in a significant clarion call - recognizes that "where there is incitement to genocide signatories [to the Genocide Convention] automatically have an obligation to act." This promise must now be acted upon.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Keepitsimple

[DogOnPorch]

I called them nutbars. That is hardly providing an excuse.

Oh look, we have a Jewish spiritual leader praying for the deaths of all Palestinians.

Does this mean we can label ALL Jews as Islamophobes, and assume that they are always in the wrong?

Does this mean, we can say that there are those that would have a holocaust against the Palestinians if left unchecked?

No, because they are nutbars with very little power, and not reflective of the people as a whole.

It is not the good Jews vs the bad Arabs, it is the moderates against the extremists.

Nutbar Lebanon and nutbar Al Jazeera throw a birthday party for child murderer Samir Kuntar.

Syrian president Bashar Al-Assad gives the child murderer a medal.

[capricorn]

Harper has said that Jews are the only people who are under threat.

Please cite where Harper has said this.

Yes, there are nutbars that would like to kill all the Jews, but no one with any power.

Hamas nutbars governed Palestine long enough to cause chaos and mayhem.

FP: Today, I'd like to talk about the way Hamas has governed Gaza since taking it over by force in 2007. But first, please briefly review the thesis of your new book Hamas vs. Fatah: The Struggle For Palestine.

Schanzer: My new book documents the ongoing political and military struggle between the two largest Palestinian factions – Hamas and Fatah – dating back to 1988. Today, as a civil war rages in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israel, the international community cannot even identify a legitimate Palestinian interlocutor. The book looks at how we arrived at this difficult place.

FP: Please tell our readers about the June 2007 war between Hamas and Fatah.

Schanzer: In a word, it was brutal. The battle for Gaza lasted a mere six days. Fatah’s forces, trained and armed by the United States and other western nations, failed miserably. Some left the field of battle. Others joined the Hamas fighters. Those who stood their ground were likely not prepared for their brutal enemy. According to the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, Hamas violence was indiscriminate, demonstrating a willful disregard for the conventions of war. Hamas fighters pushed Fatah members from the roofs of tall buildings. Hamas even killed people who were already injured, or shot their enemies at point-blank range to ensure permanent disabilities. Hamas also attacked private homes and apartment buildings, hospitals, ambulances, and medical crews. All told, the June fighting claimed the lives of at least 161 Palestinians, including 7 children and 11 women. Some 700 Palestinians were wounded.

FP: What happened when the guns fell silent?

Schanzer: Hamas began to govern through a combination of violence, authoritarianism, and Islamism. Ismael Haniyeh, the ascendant ruler of Gaza, officially denied accusations that Hamas intended to establish an Islamic emirate. However, by November, the British press reported that “only believers feel safe” in Gaza and that “un-Islamic” dress sometimes resulted in beatings. According to a UN report, women “felt coerced to cover their heads not out of religious conviction but out of fear.”

The new Hamas government attacked the media and peaceful demonstrations, and engaged in the “destruction, seizure, and robbery of governmental and non-governmental institutions,” according to one human rights report.

In short, the few reluctant steps toward liberalization that the PA had taken during its 13-year rule in Gaza—small advances in press and political freedoms, for example—were wiped out in days.

http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=33372

Deadly drive-by shootings by Hamas gunmen this week proved that the Palestinian militant group can still operate in the West Bank when its leadership demands, despite a sustained crackdown by Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/03/AR2010090302975.html

Clearly, Hamas' leadership desperately wants to regain a foothold in Palestine's government.

There are also Israeli nutbars who would like to kill all the Palestinians.

There are also Christian nutbars who would like to kill all the Gays.

There are also KKK nutbars who would like to kill all of the above.

You effectively reflect Ignatieff's nuanced position.

The leading candidate to head Canada's opposition Liberal Party was defiant on Friday after opening a political can of worms with the charge that Israel committed war crimes during its Lebanon campaign this summer.

Michael Ignatieff, a human rights expert and a former Harvard don, said at the weekend that Israel committed a war crime when it bombarded the Lebanese village of Qana in July.

---

"I do believe that in this explosive conflict, war crimes were visited on Israeli citizens and were visited on Lebanese civilians," he said.

Ignatieff, who stressed his friendship for Israel and said he would travel there soon, said it was disgraceful for Harper to suggest the Liberals were anti-Israeli.

"There is no basis whatever for Mr. Harper to suggest that the Liberal Party is biased against Israel."

Harper said that only two of the eight Liberal leadership candidates, Joe Volpe and Scott Brison, had criticized anti-Israel rhetoric over the summer, and he accused other candidates of being hypocritical when they spoke out against Ignatieff's remarks on Israel this week. Volpe and Brison are near the bottom of the pack in Liberal support.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/top-liberal-candidate-in-canada-accuses-israel-of-war-crimes-1.201392

Following a media frenzy over his comments, the King of Nuance said this.

"Israel has a right to reply to kidnappings and rocket attacks (by Hezbollah)," he said.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/QPeriod/20060810/ignatieff_mideast_060810/

It's always wise to wait and see after Ignatieff takes a stand over anything, cause a couple of days later he's bound to qualify or reverse his statements. You won't hear Harper amend any of the words he spoke at the anti-semitism conference.

[Battletoads]

It is people like you that make me puke. The UN is not the UN that we all grew up respecting. It is run by thugs and dictators and I for one do not want to be part of that group, and women rights ,give me a fucking break,do you know who is charge of womens right at the UN? Do you know who is head of humans right for the UN. As one poster said here about gays in the ME, if you hate gays ,that you are backing the right people then because Isreal's neighbours hang gays , they flee to isreal to be able to live in peace.So many countries out there hope thay had leader with balls like harper and start standing up to these fools.Do I agree with everything isreal does ,not at all, but they have a right to live also and don't come back with ''what about the palastines, the palastines are their own wosrt enemy and used by the arabs in thier battle against the jewish state. That speech was the most powerful speech ever given by a canadian PM. And this has nothing to do with votes for harper in canada because there is not enough of them to make a difference , but haters like you will vote against him and I am beginning to think there are alot of you in this country now.

I see, Canada didn't get elected because there are gay hating, misogynistic, anti-jew countries like Germany and Portugal around.

and I hope I'm not the only one capable of realizing that one doesn't have to support either side in this israel palistine affair

[KeyStone]

Is your continuous ranting against Harper, against Canada - or simply against the concept that Jews/Israel are being treated unfairly? At first, you seemed to be ranting against Harper and if so, I will again ask you to read Irwin Cotler's (Liberal MP - former Justice Minister & Attorney General) speech at the same conference where he said this:

Not sure why you think that if I don't like what Harper is saying, then I must like Cotler and the Liberals.

But then again, it would seem that you live in a very black and white world.

[Wild Bill]

I see, Canada didn't get elected because there are gay hating, misogynistic, anti-jew countries like Germany and Portugal around.

and I hope I'm not the only one capable of realizing that one doesn't have to support either side in this israel palistine affair

No, you're not the only one. Refusing to recognize clear cut right and wrong is a popular tenet of modern liberalism. Somehow, it's never a case of one side doing something truly wrong. Everyone is always equally nice and conflicts come about from people making honest mistakes and having misconceptions about each other.

However, despite being popular this view is hardly a logical one. There are bad people and there are bad governments. There are also governments that may not necessarily be "evil" but are direct rivals for our own. Sometimes one must be willing to make a strong stand of resistance.

The Arab states invaded Israel first. That is historical fact. They lost. They did it again and lost. Israel was left in the position of having occupied lands during these conflicts. Whenever they have made any effort to return them their enemies have used them as new convenient points to mount rocket launchers and spend their recreational time lobbing literally thousands of shells at random into Israel, hitting everything from the city dump to the city hospital, from schools to children at home in their bedrooms. This too is historical fact.

It's true that during Israel's retaliations there have been innocents injured and killed from time to time. That's unfortunate. It's important to note that often this body count is higher than necessary because groups like Hamas use their own as human shields. Either Israel will be deterred or blamed for killing civilians afterwards. Either way is deemed a positive by Hamas.

If you are a woman that doesn't want to walk around with a bag over her head, or a gay who would like to hold his lover's hand during a walk, would you rather do it in Israel or an Arab country? Or a woman who wants to drive a car, go to school or even treated by a doctor?

To me, trying to make some sort of moral equivalency with both sides makes no sense at all. It's not a case of trying to be liberal and fair. It's simply a cop out from making a moral judgement!

[KeyStone]

Nutbar Lebanon and nutbar Al Jazeera throw a birthday party for child murderer Samir Kuntar.

Syrian president Bashar Al-Assad gives the child murderer a medal.

It is curious.

I believe it is because they believe that Kuntar did not kill the young girl.

He claims not to have, and there is something rather suspicious about the trial.

The evidence was classfied for thirty years, and was only made public long after any of the forensic evidence could be verified.

Now, I don't know whether he did or didn't kill the child, but the Lebanese seem to believe that he did not kill the child, and his crime was to try to kidnap Israelis.

Certainly, if the Syrian leader believed that he killed a four year old child with the butt of his rifle, I would be appalled. Regardless of whether he did or didn't do it, I believe that the Syrian PM believes that he did not do it. He is a man who spent close to 30 years in prison for an action he committed when he was 16

[KeyStone]

Please cite where Harper has said this.

"In a word, Israel is the only state in the world today - and the Jews the only people in the world today - that are the object of a standing set of threats"

Clearly, Hamas' leadership desperately wants to regain a foothold in Palestine's government.

Hamas was told that they should try to effect change through the political process. So, they ran, got elected and what happened? Did they have a voice? No, Canada and other countries refused to speak with them and cut off aid to Palestine effectively undermining their authority.

You effectively reflect Ignatieff's nuanced position.

Hardly. There is nothing nuanced about my position and Ignatieff would never have the courage to stand up to Israel.

It's always wise to wait and see after Ignatieff takes a stand over anything, cause a couple of days later he's bound to qualify or reverse his statements. You won't hear Harper amend any of the words he spoke at the anti-semitism conference.

True. Ignatieff likes to surf the polls, to determine which of two 'uncompromising' positions he will take while still leaving a little wiggle room to change his mind, should the polls go the other way.

[DogOnPorch]

It is curious.

I believe it is because they believe that Kuntar did not kill the young girl.

He claims not to have, and there is something rather suspicious about the trial.

The evidence was classfied for thirty years, and was only made public long after any of the forensic evidence could be verified.

Now, I don't know whether he did or didn't kill the child, but the Lebanese seem to believe that he did not kill the child, and his crime was to try to kidnap Israelis.

Certainly, if the Syrian leader believed that he killed a four year old child with the butt of his rifle, I would be appalled. Regardless of whether he did or didn't do it, I believe that the Syrian PM believes that he did not do it. He is a man who spent close to 30 years in prison for an action he committed when he was 16

They found the kid's brains on Kuntar's gun. But sure...Israeli security smashed that child's head in themselves and framed the poor fellow.

[dre]

No, you're not the only one. Refusing to recognize clear cut right and wrong is a popular tenet of modern liberalism. Somehow, it's never a case of one side doing something truly wrong. Everyone is always equally nice and conflicts come about from people making honest mistakes and having misconceptions about each other.

However, despite being popular this view is hardly a logical one. There are bad people and there are bad governments. There are also governments that may not necessarily be "evil" but are direct rivals for our own. Sometimes one must be willing to make a strong stand of resistance.

The Arab states invaded Israel first. That is historical fact. They lost. They did it again and lost. Israel was left in the position of having occupied lands during these conflicts. Whenever they have made any effort to return them their enemies have used them as new convenient points to mount rocket launchers and spend their recreational time lobbing literally thousands of shells at random into Israel, hitting everything from the city dump to the city hospital, from schools to children at home in their bedrooms. This too is historical fact.

It's true that during Israel's retaliations there have been innocents injured and killed from time to time. That's unfortunate. It's important to note that often this body count is higher than necessary because groups like Hamas use their own as human shields. Either Israel will be deterred or blamed for killing civilians afterwards. Either way is deemed a positive by Hamas.

If you are a woman that doesn't want to walk around with a bag over her head, or a gay who would like to hold his lover's hand during a walk, would you rather do it in Israel or an Arab country? Or a woman who wants to drive a car, go to school or even treated by a doctor?

To me, trying to make some sort of moral equivalency with both sides makes no sense at all. It's not a case of trying to be liberal and fair. It's simply a cop out from making a moral judgement!

The conflict doesnt fit your simple back and white perspective.

Both sides in the dispute have commited serious transgressions against each other, and both have thumbed their noses at the law.

Its not at all helpfull for Canada to give either side a free pass. We should push both sides towards compliance in the areas where it is lacking.

[DogOnPorch]

The conflict doesnt fit your simple back and white perspective.

Both sides in the dispute have commited serious transgressions against each other, and both have thumbed their noses at the law.

Its not at all helpfull for Canada to give either side a free pass. We should push both sides towards compliance in the areas where it is lacking.

We should have also pushed Nazi Germany towards compliance where lacking if we follow this yayo's line of thinking.

[dre]

We should have also pushed Nazi Germany towards compliance where lacking if we follow this yayo's line of thinking.

Poor poor DOP.

[DogOnPorch]

Poor poor DOP.

Obersturmbannfuehrer dre has some issues when it comes to dealing with Nazis properly.

[dre]

Obersturmbannfuehrer dre has some issues when it comes to dealing with Nazis properly.

*Pats head. There there DOP. Its all gonna be ok.

Edited November 9, 2010 by dre

[capricorn]

How many Arab votes do you think Harper had before this speech exactly?

I retract where I said that Harper could lose votes from Arabs 5 to 1. What I should have said is he could conceivably lose votes from Muslims due to his defence of Israel. In any case, statistics are not compiled of who voters support by ethnic group and any relevant claim could not be substantiated.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Ridiculous. The more realistic assessment is that for every Jewish vote he wins, he'll lose at least five from Arab Muslims.

Since when has Harper had a lot of support from Arab Muslims?

[DogOnPorch]

*Pats head. There there DOP. Its all gonna be ok.

Holocaust denial is such an ugly thing.

[dre]

Holocaust denial is such an ugly thing.

Yeah... sure is...

[DogOnPorch]

Yeah... sure is...

Then why are you doing it?

[KeyStone]

They found the kid's brains on Kuntar's gun. But sure...Israeli security smashed that child's head in themselves and framed the poor fellow.

Yeah, any theories as to why all evidence and testimony was classified for thirty years?

Any idea how difficult it is to prove the forensics after 30 years? He vehemently denied that he killed the 4 year old.

For someone wanting to believe in his innocence, there is plenty of room for doubt.

Regardless of whether he is guilty or innocent, the Syrian PM believes him to be innocent.

I would hope that if the Syrian PM believed him guilty, the award would not have been granted.

[DogOnPorch]

Yeah, any theories as to why all evidence and testimony was classified for thirty years?

Any idea how difficult it is to prove the forensics after 30 years? He vehemently denied that he killed the 4 year old.

For someone wanting to believe in his innocence, there is plenty of room for doubt.

Regardless of whether he is guilty or innocent, the Syrian PM believes him to be innocent.

I would hope that if the Syrian PM believed him guilty, the award would not have been granted.

Bashar Al-Assad: A Ba'athist, a rabid anti-Semite and a Holocaust denier...but sure...he's only seeking the "truth" about Kuntar's murderous actions.